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P5Q 16 power phase

roguerower

Diamond Member
I asked this in General hardware and didn't get anything so I thought i would try here.

I'm looking at purchasing a P5Q Deluxe when I build my new system and see it touting it's "True 16-phase power" and I have no idea what this means or represents. Someone care to shed some light on it?
 
Delivery of power to motherboard is smoother with less ripple meaning more stable better overclocking mainboard.
 
It means that ASUS can claim to reduce power consumption by unnecessarily doubling the number of output channels, then using some gimmicky power saving feature to turn-off half of them when CPU utilization is low, even though the necessity or benefit of eight output channels is a stretch to begin with. i.e. jacking-up the price of an item by $40 then offering a $40 rebate on it.

And even if the power efficiency claims don't impress, then you pay more for it because it sounds morely awesome. Wow, 16 power phases! Its worth paying more for an ASUS board than those other eight phase boards, which surely must be inferior having only half as many CPU output phase-power channel thingies (whatever those are, they must be twice as good because there are twice as many).
 
Originally posted by: roguerower
I asked this in General hardware and didn't get anything so I thought i would try here.

I'm looking at purchasing a P5Q Deluxe when I build my new system and see it touting it's "True 16-phase power" and I have no idea what this means or represents. Someone care to shed some light on it?

Assuming the quote below was a PR re-writ originated from words of an engineer or a physicist. It's a classical Distributed Processing design, full power bandwidth achieved through 16 aggregate channels (16-phase), with auto dynamic granular control of 4 ala 4, 8, 12, 16... or 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% power.

ASUS´ revolutionary True 16-phase power design utilizes true hardware power regulation to guarantee genuine power efficacy. During heavy CPU loadings, the intelligent power design automatically switches to 16-phases; and conversely during low processing periods, it uses a responsive 4-phase system to power the CPU ? raising VRM efficiency. A power design that does not have auto phase switching will be unable to increase power efficiency; and lower VRM efficiency will still drop off the Output Current and result in wasted power and increased heat. The new True 16-phase design maintains an exceptional power efficiency of up to more than 96% ? resulting in less power drawn, lower temperatures and excellent delivery of performance in comparison to competing models. With the True 16-phase power design, users will enjoy reduced operating temperatures and extended lifespans of key components such as the CPU and motherboard.
 
Originally posted by: tcsenter
It means that ASUS can claim to reduce power consumption by unnecessarily doubling the number of output channels, then using some gimmicky power saving feature to turn-off half of them when CPU utilization is low, even though the necessity or benefit of eight output channels is a stretch to begin with. i.e. jacking-up the price of an item by $40 then offering a $40 rebate on it.

And even if the power efficiency claims don't impress, then you pay more for it because it sounds morely awesome. Wow, 16 power phases! Its worth paying more for an ASUS board than those other eight phase boards, which surely must be inferior having only half as many CPU output phase-power channel thingies (whatever those are, they must be twice as good because there are twice as many).

"Multi-rail power supplies are more reliable and more dependable than Single-rail power supplies, even when used as Single-rail power supplies."

The reliability and dependability increased with the number of channels, in this case instead of 160A being forced through all the part components of a Single-rail, each of the 16 channel only had to withstand 1/16th or 10A per channel.

Without pushing power density envelope whatsoever, typical dependable and reliable per channel nominal is 20A.

Asus's Distributed Processing design nominal output is good out toward 320A range, Asus can handle anything new Intel and AMD could put out for sometime to come, Single or Multi-Processing systems.
 
Originally posted by: beray
ASUS´ revolutionary True 16-phase power design utilizes true hardware power regulation to guarantee genuine power efficacy. During heavy CPU loadings, the intelligent power design automatically switches to 16-phases; and conversely during low processing periods, it uses a responsive 4-phase system to power the CPU ? raising VRM efficiency. A power design that does not have auto phase switching will be unable to increase power efficiency; and lower VRM efficiency will still drop off the Output Current and result in wasted power and increased heat. The new True 16-phase design maintains an exceptional power efficiency of up to more than 96% ? resulting in less power drawn, lower temperatures and excellent delivery of performance in comparison to competing models. With the True 16-phase power design, users will enjoy reduced operating temperatures and extended lifespans of key components such as the CPU and motherboard.

That sucks. I thought that it was a full-on 16-phase power design, not one of those auto-dynamic-adjustable ones. I prefer to run all power phases at once, all of the time, because even though it wastes a small bit of power, it lowers the output current requirements for each individual phase, thus your mobo VRM components run cooler, and thus should last much longer.

By cutting out phases during periods of low load requirements, the individual phases will have to supply greater current, and thus greater temps. Very uncool.

So does anyone know if you can disable this automatic phase switching behavior? I will probably be avoiding these motherboards if there isn't any way to disable this.
 
Originally posted by: RallyMaster
What does the 16 phase power actually do for people that don't overclock?
Reliability and dependability, the most overclockable harware had the largest error margin for reliability and dependability.

Originally posted by: RallyMaster
Longer lasting hardware?
Very much so, the problem VirtualLarry mentioned above exist in older hardware from lacking sufficient number of power channels. In this case even at minimum, power density is distributed and diffused across 4 channels, plus the granular control is smaller lessening the power density to be distributed.
 
Originally posted by: beray
In this case even at minimum, power density is distributed and diffused across 4 channels, plus the granular control is smaller lessening the power density to be distributed.
In english?

 
Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
Originally posted by: beray
In this case even at minimum, power density is distributed and diffused across 4 channels, plus the granular control is smaller lessening the power density to be distributed.
In english?

Sorry, "Engrish" is my native tongue.

Asus's design used optimal engineering practice, power density output scaling in 3dB steps or 4 power channels per 3dB of power resolution.

PS. I've no connection or association whatsoever to Asus.
 
Originally posted by: RallyMaster
What does the 16 phase power actually do for people that don't overclock? Longer lasting hardware?
Absolutely, if you use your motherboard longer than the typical MTTB/MTTF rating of current-standard power path components, which range between one and two thousand years @ 85'C for the decent commodity stuff. Figure at least five thousand years minimum for the higher grade stuff.

So if your PC is still chugging along 1000 years from now, that special super-duper 16-phase power supply should allow at least another 1000 years or so of trouble free operation, whereas those inferior 4, 6, and 8 phase designs would probably start to fail around the 1000-year mark, give or take.

Of course, your capacitors will have become fully derated after not more than 20 years, but hey, capacitors are easier to replace than ICs, right? Think of the savings, you won't need to buy a new motherboard for at least 2000 years! Just replace the capacitors every 10 ~ 20 years. Now that's a truly "green" solution, only putting one motherboard into a landfill every 2000 years. Kudos to ASUS for this highly practical feature. ASUS is leading the way to saving the environment - 400+ motherboards at a time!

The ASUS marketing gimmick evangelists have evangelized a little too much and spilled the true reason for creating exorbitant number of output phases that vastly exceed design power requirements:

The reliability and dependability increased with the number of channels, in this case instead of 160A being forced through all the part components of a Single-rail, each of the 16 channel only had to withstand 1/16th or 10A per channel.

Distributing the same load over more channels means less loading per channel, thereby permitting the use of cheaper commodity components. How much more expensive do you reckon a 25A channel costs to design/build relative to 15A channel? Depending on the components in question, it can realistically triple the BOM cost. See the benefit of 16 phases now?

More channels are definitely better...up to the point where they no longer are better. At that point, all that more channels do is permit one to get away with using more plentiful and much cheaper commodity grade power path components with less lead time, or market it as one of the super-duper features that give ASUS the distinction of consistently setting the highest average selling price (ASP) of any Taiwanese manufacturer for years now.

Intel's own voltage regulator specification and design guidance indicate that anywhere between four and six phase designs should be sufficient for any current Intel processor up to the maximum specified peak loadline rating of 150A for 775_VR_CONFIG_05B models (130A continuous). Intel is never 'optimistic' or unrealistic in its design guidance. It always bases its recommendations or specified minimums on sensible design and manufacturing assumptions that should be perfectly safe in most configurations when properly implemented and tested for compliance.

Currently, only a handful of Intel processors fall within the maximum peak loadline specified by Intel VRD 11.1, such as QX9775. This is not the peak current that will be drawn from those processors. It defines the upper limit for an entire CPU package/architectural family. Nehalem is anticipated to have ~10% higher power consumption at the same frequency, which should translate into a peak loadline of not more than 170A. Of course, Nehalem doesn't run in any current motherboard so it is irrelevant if Intel releases a processor two years from now that requires 170A. It won't work in any motherboard available today due to socket, pin-out, and other differences.

BTW, numerous motherboards are supporting the entire range of Intel (and AMD) processors with no less stability and no less reliability, based on good four and five phase power designs. It is true that these motherboards would not support more than moderate overclocks with high-end processors, which is why Gigabyte, DFI, ABIT, MSI, and others are implementing very capable six and eight phase designs that can overclock with the best of them.

Again, the reason for having more than 10 phases today and the foreseeable future for single processor boards has absolutely nothing to do with reliability or dependability. In order to preserve power efficiency under light loads carried by fewer phases (dynamic phase control), you must reduce the maximum design power (i.e. granularity) of each phase. And being able to use cheaper commodity power components is nice, too (for the manufacturer).
 
Originally posted by: tcsenter

Distributing the same load over more channels means less loading per channel, thereby permitting the use of cheaper commodity components. How much more expensive do you reckon a 25A channel costs to design/build relative to 15A channel? Depending on the components in question, it can realistically triple the BOM cost. See the benefit of 16 phases now?

More channels are definitely better...up to the point where they no longer are better. At that point, all that more channels do is permit one to get away with using more plentiful and much cheaper commodity grade power path components with less lead time, or market it as one of the super-duper features that give ASUS the distinction of consistently setting the highest average selling price (ASP) of any Taiwanese manufacturer for years now.

Intel's own voltage regulator specification and design guidance indicate that anywhere between four and six phase designs should be sufficient for any current Intel processor up to the maximum specified peak loadline rating of 150A for 775_VR_CONFIG_05B models (130A continuous). Intel is never 'optimistic' or unrealistic in its design guidance. It always bases its recommendations or specified minimums on sensible design and manufacturing assumptions that should be perfectly safe in most configurations when properly implemented and tested for compliance.

Currently, only a handful of Intel processors fall within the maximum peak loadline specified by Intel VRD 11.1, such as QX9775. This is not the peak current that will be drawn from those processors. It defines the upper limit for an entire CPU package/architectural family. Nehalem is anticipated to have ~10% higher power consumption at the same frequency, which should translate into a peak loadline of not more than 170A. Of course, Nehalem doesn't run in any current motherboard so it is irrelevant if Intel releases a processor two years from now that requires 170A. It won't work in any motherboard available today due to socket, pin-out, and other differences.

BTW, numerous motherboards are supporting the entire range of Intel (and AMD) processors with no less stability and no less reliability, based on good four and five phase power designs. It is true that these motherboards would not support more than moderate overclocks with high-end processors, which is why Gigabyte, DFI, ABIT, MSI, and others are implementing very capable six and eight phase designs that can overclock with the best of them.

Again, the reason for having more than 10 phases today and the foreseeable future for single processor boards has absolutely nothing to do with reliability or dependability. In order to preserve power efficiency under light loads carried by fewer phases (dynamic phase control), you must reduce the maximum design power (i.e. granularity) of each phase. And being able to use cheaper commodity power components is nice, too (for the manufacturer).

Stop making things up, the mixture of facts and fictions you made is reasonable and believable. But it only works on ignorant people who knew nothing.
 
Originally posted by: beray
Stop making things up, the mixture of facts and fictions you made is reasonable and believable. But it only works on ignorant people who knew nothing.
ASUS marketing brochures and website didn't have any cut-n-paste response to those points, eh?
 
Distributing the same load over more channels means less loading per channel, thereby permitting the use of cheaper commodity components. How much more expensive do you reckon a 25A channel costs to design/build relative to 15A channel? Depending on the components in question, it can realistically triple the BOM cost. See the benefit of 16 phases now?

This above is the reasonable and believable way ignorant people used in keeping down BOM cost.

But for multiple decades gone by, Single-rail, Single-Channel power supplies are the cheapest way bar none, whenever possible you should stick to them and switch to Multi-rail when Single-rail, Single-Channel power supplies is not a viable option, no longer reliable or dependable enough. This is why practically all PSUs are 12V Single-rail. No one was stupid enough to use the Multi-rail saving cost technique.
 
it's part marketing gimmick, part relevant design spec.

the DFI Ultra-D was a very stable OC'able motherboard. i don't recall anyone
ever mentioning how many phases it had.

watching motherboard ads that mention # of phases is a little like sitting in
a Powerpoint intensive design review.

"our power processing circuitry has 8 phases"
"well, our power processing circuitry has 12 phases"

i'm not saying more phases is bad, i'm saying what's important is good
power-processing circuitry, which is not equivalent to having as many
phase/channels as possible.
 
Originally posted by: beray
Distributing the same load over more channels means less loading per channel, thereby permitting the use of cheaper commodity components. How much more expensive do you reckon a 25A channel costs to design/build relative to 15A channel? Depending on the components in question, it can realistically triple the BOM cost. See the benefit of 16 phases now?

This above is the reasonable and believable way ignorant people used in keeping down BOM cost.

But for multiple decades gone by, Single-rail, Single-Channel power supplies are the cheapest way bar none, whenever possible you should stick to them and switch to Multi-rail when Single-rail, Single-Channel power supplies is not a viable option, no longer reliable or dependable enough. This is why practically all PSUs are 12V Single-rail. No one was stupid enough to use the Multi-rail saving cost technique.

I don't know as much about the validity of having 16 phase power regulation as I'd like to, which is why I am reading this thread. I am however confused as to why you continue to reference power supplies in relation to this debate. The two concepts do not really seem to correspond with each other.

As I understand it, most modern high powered single and multi-rail PSUs are all actually mutli-rail, but those identified as single rail have their rails bridged. There is actually a new SilverStone PSU, ZM1200M, that allows the user to decide if they want to run the (six!!!) rails as a single rail or separate. I am also under the impression that the reason PSUs began to be multi-rail was because of Intel's recommended spec to not have a single rail exceed 25A for safety reasons, not because they are more reliable or in any way inherently better than a single rail.

Also, a lot of what tcsenter makes sense, as it is a fact that manufacturers (of just about anything) are always looking for ways to cut costs. It would certainly be a nice bonus of cost cutting measures if the marketing team could spin them in such a way to boost sales. Furthermore, he doesn't say anything really negative about the approach, just that it allows Asus to use cheaper components and maximize their profits.

I'd like to see a comparison between the P5Q Deluxe which has 16 stage voltage reg and the otherwise identical P5Q-E with 8-stage voltage reg.
 
Originally posted by: nitromullet

Also, a lot of what tcsenter makes sense,

Yes, the term I used is "reasonable and believable". But excuse me please, I'd never seen any person with power supply expertise ever was this stupid.

"It means that ASUS can claim to reduce power consumption by unnecessarily doubling the number of output channels, then using some gimmicky power saving feature to turn-off half of them when CPU utilization is low..."

"Distributing the same load over more channels means less loading per channel, thereby permitting the use of cheaper commodity components. How much more expensive do you reckon a 25A channel costs to design/build relative to 15A channel? Depending on the components in question, it can realistically triple the BOM cost. See the benefit of 16 phases now?

More channels are definitely better...up to the point where they no longer are better. At that point, all that more channels do is permit one to get away with using more plentiful and much cheaper commodity grade power path components with less lead time, or market it as one of the super-duper features that give ASUS the distinction of consistently setting the highest average selling price (ASP) of any Taiwanese manufacturer for years now."
 
I don't know as much about the validity of having 16 phase power regulation as I'd like to, which is why I am reading this thread. I am however confused as to why you continue to reference power supplies in relation to this debate. The two concepts do not really seem to correspond with each other.
mobo regulators are voltage power supplies, PSUs are voltage power supplies, the only differ is input power.
 
I am also under the impression that the reason PSUs began to be multi-rail was because of Intel's recommended spec to not have a single rail exceed 25A for safety reasons, not because they are more reliable or in any way inherently better than a single rail.
"Multi-rail power supplies are more reliable and more dependable than Single-rail power supplies, even when used as Single-rail power supplies."

The reliability and dependability increased with the number of channels, in this case instead of 160A being forced through all the part components of a Single-rail, each of the 16 channel only had to withstand 1/16th or 10A per channel.
 
Originally posted by: beray
I am also under the impression that the reason PSUs began to be multi-rail was because of Intel's recommended spec to not have a single rail exceed 25A for safety reasons, not because they are more reliable or in any way inherently better than a single rail.
"Multi-rail power supplies are more reliable and more dependable than Single-rail power supplies, even when used as Single-rail power supplies."

The reliability and dependability increased with the number of channels, in this case instead of 160A being forced through all the part components of a Single-rail, each of the 16 channel only had to withstand 1/16th or 10A per channel.

Wouldn't you also have more single points of failure?

Originally posted by: beray
Originally posted by: nitromullet

Also, a lot of what tcsenter makes sense,

Yes, the term I used is "reasonable and believable". But excuse me please, I'd never seen any person with power supply expertise ever was this stupid.

"It means that ASUS can claim to reduce power consumption by unnecessarily doubling the number of output channels, then using some gimmicky power saving feature to turn-off half of them when CPU utilization is low..."

"Distributing the same load over more channels means less loading per channel, thereby permitting the use of cheaper commodity components. How much more expensive do you reckon a 25A channel costs to design/build relative to 15A channel? Depending on the components in question, it can realistically triple the BOM cost. See the benefit of 16 phases now?

More channels are definitely better...up to the point where they no longer are better. At that point, all that more channels do is permit one to get away with using more plentiful and much cheaper commodity grade power path components with less lead time, or market it as one of the super-duper features that give ASUS the distinction of consistently setting the highest average selling price (ASP) of any Taiwanese manufacturer for years now."

Yes, we know that you think he's stupid, but you haven't actually explained why he's not correct. Simply calling someone stupid doesn't make it so.
 
Originally posted by: nitromullet

Wouldn't you also have more single points of failure?

Ha ha... 🙂 A beautiful question..!!

It's a Distributed Processing design, think of it as UBER-RAID.

1 of 16 failed is still only 1/16th, most times the powered systems wouldn't even notice the failure. And when the point of failure so small to notice, lots of powered systems needed no repair whatsoever.
 
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