P4 users and Athlon XP users look inside

[GL]

In a couple of months I will likely be putting together a new system. I currently have a P3 on a Via-based motherboard with an ATI AIW Radeon. In my next system I will likely go with an ATI 8500DV or ATI 8500 with separate TV tuner. I also have numerous USB devices - scanner, printer, gamepad, steeringwheel, serialport adapter, keyboard, mouse, etc.

I want my next system to resolve some of the problems I noticed with my current system:

1) USB sucks with my current VIA setup. USB devices literally crash the system unless I disable PCI 2.1 compliance by disabling the "Delay Transaction" option in the BIOS - my self-powered hub will crash taking all the devices with it and eventually blue screen my win2k box. I literally spent weeks trying to figure out how to fix this issue before stumbling upon the solution which results in lowered performance (yes it is noticeable even though it may be minute, especially during video capturing). Even without the hub, the problem exists so it must be the motherboard.

2) I also have a SBLive and it crackles from time to time. I'm sure you've heard the problems with the SBLive/Via combo so I won't reiterate them.

3) I would like to use ACPI power management but with my current setup, it's unreliable - it used to work very well but as peripherals have been added it has turned flaky.

All of these problems have got to be resolved in my next setup. They may be small things but they're the sort of things that annoy the hell out of me.

I would like the fastest-performing reliable system I can find. I know the Athlon XP is overall the better performing CPU clock-for-clock and dollar-for-dollar, but I'm scared to go with a VIA or SiS chipset because reviewers never test for the reliability of ACPI and USB. VIA has had a notorious history of USB problems but I'm not sure about SiS. The nForce chipset is entirely too new and I don't want to be a guinea pig. For these reasons, I'm leaning toward a P4 with i850 chipset.

Can you P4 users honestly tell me the problems you've encountered with your setup - no matter how small. And can you Athlon XP users do the same? I'm especially interested in hearing from people who have a lot of USB devices and those that use ACPI features.

UPDATE
I wonder why reviewers always overlook things such as reliability of a system with several peripherals in it? I've never seen an AnandTech review (or any other site review) that mentions USB problems that were evident on VIA platforms, and reviews never uncovered the SBLive crackling issues although they have uncovered issues with ACPI reliability. Hopefully reviewers will start testing these aspects of a motherboard instead of assuming they're rock-solid performers like serial or printer ports.

 

[Aelus]

just a small note, but the sblive crackling doesn't only happen on via boards, i've heard it on a friends BX based computer too, he upgraded to an abit kt7, and it still crackled. So i'd blame it more on the soundcard than on the chipsets.

i've got an athlon xp myself, but since usb and acpi both are disabled since i don't use them, i can't offer any advice there. good luck.

Aelus

 

[AgentZap]

My SB live crackled because of a POS digital out cord they included with it. They made me pay for shipping on a new one and that one started crackling after a month too. I am never spending money on creative ish ever again. If the cord is bent a certain way random crackling and or popping comes through the speaker.

 

[GL]

Good points guys...I guess I should've mentioned I'll be avoiding Creative sound cards too. I'll probably go with a Hercules or Santa Cruz.

 

[earthman]

You might want to look into an extenal USB hub with its own power supply. Sounds like you have too much stuff hooked up.

 

[StanFL]

I have ACPI including Suspend To Ram working perfectly on my P4 rig using WinXP Pro. I'm using a Intel D850MV motherboard and as long as the video wait state is set to S3 in the bios before installing the o/s, the ACPI stuff, including STR is a piece of cake. I disable APM and rely on ACPI for all power management. The thing you have to be the most careful with is DRIVERS!!!!! I've killed STR with non compliant drivers. Drivers is one area where you are best off sticking with MS certified drivers.

It's also very important to have a power supply with enough +5 SBV (at least 2.0 amps for a P4).

XP does help here, I've already created system restore points before adding drivers and had to use system restore to "roll back" the system state to get STR functionality back after drivers have killed it. It does work.

 

[GL]

<< You might want to look into an extenal USB hub with its own power supply. Sounds like you have too much stuff hooked up. >>



I already have a USB hub with its own power supply. I've used the Hub with an Intel LX board before and it worked just fine.

Stanfl

Thanks...I'm a die-hard win2k user but that system-restore feature might just be the thing that forces me to upgrade to XP.

 

[Remnant2]

BTW, If I were you and was to put together a new P4 system, I would most likely wait for i845-D. The price difference between RDRAM and DDR is still a bit too compelling, esp for 512MB of ram in a system. If you don't want to wait tho then yeah, go for the 850.


I have a XP 1600 on a KT266a and have encountered no problems with USB, however, the only things I run off USB are
1) mouse
2) webcam
3) digital camera
(and usually never at the same time).

I was a bit cautious going to a VIA-based solution (my prior MB was a 750), but except for a bit of wierdness at the very beginning, it's been smooth and stable as silk.

I haven't heard of any USB-related problems with the sis735, and for the price its an unbeatable deal.

 

[Duvie]

I have the ECS sis735 mobo with 1.4ghz tbird (not xp) and run winme for now with xp on the way....

I have no issues with usb devices and I use it for scanner, printer, and dig camera...most times 2 things at a time but never all 3...

I had acpi issues at first when I had win98 first edition installed...had to reformat and turn off and reinstall...no issues with acpi (which is on) and winme....I often use the acpi features now...

 

[meister]

I have a kt133 chipset with 1 gig tbird, usb has never been issue of lockups, if i use to much of the bus I get a slow down, but no lockups.

on another question. I have the aiw radeon also and will be upgrading. How come this time you are going for seperate tuner instead of aiw 8500? I really like mine and don't know if I even need to upgrade but have thought of it.

Mark

 

[Nefrodite]

i have a via m/b with 6 cards .. no compatibiltiy problems .. no usb problems and i have a scanner two mice, gamepad, and a visor hooked up to it

 

[Pabster]

Avoid VIA like the plague.

You want a DV machine? VIA ought to be your last choice. Look elsewhere.

VIA has always been plagued with USB issues. Nothing new there!

 

[damocles]

Asus P4TE here (i850/Rambus). Problems = 0. The Asus boards have 133FSB support and they are claiming Northwood support too

The i850 chipset with RDRAM is a crazy idea. In fact, somebody of the AT members may actually come for U and kick your a$$ for buying that and not being shy to boast about it

You are welcome to try

 

[Sunner]

Should be noted that Pabster is the resident VIA hater of AT, and will do everything in his power to make VIA look bad

 

[Pabster]

"...and will do everything in his power to make VIA look bad..."

I don't have to "make" them look bad. Thousands of AT users can attest to the bug-ridden VIA chipsets they so despise

 

[Mem]

<< I don't have to "make" them look bad. Thousands of AT users can attest to the bug-ridden VIA chipsets they so despise >>




You could of fooled me Pabster ,anyway I own two VIA boards and before this was using Intel ,stability and setup wise I`ve had no problems,using USB on both systems all USB stuff is working fine for me.

At the end of the day it`s what you`re happy with and don`t let nobody including Pabster sway you from choosing the chipset you want be it VIA,Intel,SiS etc,it`s your money your choice .

 

[Pabster]

Mem wrote:

"At the end of the day it`s what you`re happy with and don`t let nobody including Pabster sway you from choosing the chipset you want be it VIA,Intel,SiS etc,it`s your money your choice ."

Hey, a statement even I can agree with!

 

[Mem]

<< Hey, a statement even I can agree with! >>



We agree :Q what did I do wrong .

 

[Gstanfor]

I would not say I'm as rabid about VIA as pabster is (after all my main rig is running on a VIA motherboard at this moment), but it seems VIA never actually fixes anything except in software.

Every chipset from the MVP3 up will exhibit the same buggy behaviour in Windows unless you patch things up with the 4-in-one drivers. VIA has had plenty of time to eradicate most of the errata from their chipsets, they could have cleaned up the AGP functionality when they first introduced AGP 4x to their chipsets for instance, but they haven't - instead you have to patch the OS to make the chipset work the way it is supposed to.

At least most other chipset vendors actually fix hardware bugs in hardware - a concept that seems foreign to VIA.

Greg

 

[GL]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm probably going to go the P4 route but won't be purchasing right away - so if the i845 DDR platform is all it's cracked up to be, I'll likely jump on that. I think i850 is a great chipset even though I despise Rambus...and even though RDRAM has it's quirks (install in pairs) and high cost, I could probably live with it.



<< ASUS guarantees USB functionality, believe me, they do test it when producing the board. Not all manufacturers do that. >>



That's what I thought too, but I have an Asus CUV4X. I'm up to BIOS 1009 and the USB issues have never been resolved.

You don't know how annoying it is to be playing F1 Racing Championship with a USB steering wheel and have the thing go dead on the last lap before certain victory Or the printer start printing garbled characters because something is amyss on the USB bus. I don't have these problems anymore, but only because I found out that disabling an option in the BIOS that should under normal circumstances, be enabled, resolves the issue.



<< on another question. I have the aiw radeon also and will be upgrading. How come this time you are going for seperate tuner instead of aiw 8500? I really like mine and don't know if I even need to upgrade but have thought of it. >>



I love my AIW Radeon...it's not perfect but it's really close (especially with MMC 7.5). What turns me off of the AIW 8500DV is the castrated 3D acceleration. I'll have to see the final benchmarks but memory that runs at 190MHz when my current AIW Radeon's is at 183MHz, on a card that will cost me CAN$550 is just ridiculous. I think the AIW Radeon struck a nice balance between a 3D gamer's card and a hobbyist's video capture card...I don't see that balance with the AIW Radeon 8500DV. Otherwise, it's a great solution if you can put up with the 230/190 clockspeed.

 

[teriba]

The KT266a fixed the sb live problems. I have a Shuttle AK31A (KT266A) and XP 1600+. I have a USB keyboard, mouse, scanner and Clie. Absolutely no problems.

 

[NFS4]

I'm not exactly running an Athlon XP setup (1.4GHz T-Bird @ 1.533GHz on Shuttle AK31 Rev 3.1). The Athlon XP setup will perform as well (if not better) than the P4 for less money. You can't go wrong there. I'm really trying to see a reason why you should go the P4 route, but I can't find one. The performance difference will be negligable at best and you can pocket the $$$ you save by going the XP route.

As for my setup, I have 5 PCI device installed running Windows XP:

Hi-Val 56k Winmodem
Netgear FA310TX 10/100 NIC
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz
ATI TV Wonder VE
USB 2.0 PCI card

I also have the following USB device (I have no legacy ports enabled; i.e. PS2, Serial, Parallel):

Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro (2 USB ports on back)
Logitech Optical Wheel Mouse
Planar 18.1" monitor (4 USB ports on back)
Compaq iPAQ 37xx USB sync
Gravis Xterminator Gamepad
PQI SmartMedia/CompactFlash Reader
Epson C60 color inkjet printer
HP Scanjet 3200CSe scanner

No problems whatsoever to report (even with 3 DIMM's installed; 3x256 PC2100 w/agressive timings).

*Note* Don't listen to Pabster. He will do anything to slander VIA, there is no compromise with him. He is the NEW Hardware..**CONFIRMED**

 

[Pabster]

NFS4 wrote:

"I'm not exactly running an Athlon XP setup (1.4GHz T-Bird @ 1.533GHz on Shuttle AK31 Rev 3.1). The Athlon XP setup will perform as well (if not better) than the P4 for less money. You can't go wrong there. I'm really trying to see a reason why you should go the P4 route, but I can't find one. The performance difference will be negligable at best and you can pocket the $$$ you save by going the XP route."

My gawd! I'm in total and absolute agreement. The P4 just doesn't make sense.

"*Note* Don't listen to Pabster. He will do anything to slander VIA, there is no compromise with him. He is the NEW Hardware..**CONFIRMED**"

Well, now, come on. I've had some terrible experiences with an untold number of VIA-based mainboards over the past three years. And there's no shortage of people (on this forum alone) who can concur. I mean, it ain't like I start flame shoot threads to bash VIA. I just offer up my experiences and let 'em decide. And that is ******CONFIRMED******

 

[NFS4]

<< NFS4 wrote:

"I'm not exactly running an Athlon XP setup (1.4GHz T-Bird @ 1.533GHz on Shuttle AK31 Rev 3.1). The Athlon XP setup will perform as well (if not better) than the P4 for less money. You can't go wrong there. I'm really trying to see a reason why you should go the P4 route, but I can't find one. The performance difference will be negligable at best and you can pocket the $$$ you save by going the XP route."

My gawd! I'm in total and absolute agreement. The P4 just doesn't make sense.

"*Note* Don't listen to Pabster. He will do anything to slander VIA, there is no compromise with him. He is the NEW Hardware..**CONFIRMED**"

Well, now, come on. I've had some terrible experiences with an untold number of VIA-based mainboards over the past three years. And there's no shortage of people (on this forum alone) who can concur. I mean, it ain't like I start flame shoot threads to bash VIA. I just offer up my experiences and let 'em decide. And that is ******CONFIRMED****** >>


Man, I think that there is something in the water...I agree with Pabster in the KR7A-RAID thread, and he agrees with me here. Are the planets in alignment??:Q

 

[GL]

I'd love an Athlon XP on an i850 or i845 DDR platform, but that isn't going to happen. I'm basically choosing my CPU after I choose the motherboard instead of the other way around. I don't want to buy VIA only to be screwed over again 3 months down the road when some incompatibilities or problems start showing up. But, I'm happy to hear you aren't having problems NFS4...your setup seems to be very similar to the one I'm running. I'm just curious though...if you run those USB devices off the motherboard USB headers, do you get problems? I noticed you have a USB 2.0 card.

I'm actually willing to put in a weeks worth of wages to cover the cost of an Intel-only solution if it saves me from having to worry about problems that end users like me have very little control over (i.e. the latest VIA/Nvidia issue, SBLive/VIA issue, USB problems, etc.) I'm aiming for Toyota-reliability here NFS4