P&N has done nothing for Anandtech

[BeauJangles]

I remember when Politics and News was created. I remember being a member pushing for it in Forum Issues. I was really sick of seeing political threads in OT all the time and I thought it would create a good forum (literally) for the voicing and debating of political opinions. It also was supposed to serve as a place where people could provide there own commentary on world events.

Sadly, P&N is really a shadow of the dream. Instead of bringing some common understanding about opposing beliefs, P&N has simply polarized people even more than before. Personal attacks are increasing and we can?t expect the mods to be everywhere at all times.

I?m writing this thread as a member of Anandtech and a (fairly) regular contributor to P&N. I?m a liberal. I don?t believe in god, creationsim, or that George Bush is a good president. There. I said it. That?s where I stand, and, sadly, P&N hasn?t helped me understand the conservative, religious, republicans. I don?t feel like the little dialogue we?ve had has been helpful.

So I have a list of requests for ALL members who chose to post in politics and news.

1. Posting articles should be limited, IMO. Especially with little or no input from the poster himself. Sure, the occasional political piece is interesting, but they don?t add very much to our community discussion. They clearly DO NOT help improve understanding of the issues they address ? if anything they just turn threads into flame fests. So, can you tone it down (on both the liberal and conservative sides)? I?m interested in what YOU have to say even though I probably won?t agree with it, I promise to respect it. If I have
2. Opinions should be RESPECTED. Everyone has a bias in the world and we all have to learn to respect that ? even if that is opposed to our own views of the world.
3. If you disagree with someone, make sure you disagree with WHAT they say. Do not attack people personally. It?s a simple rule. Attack their arguments, but not them. When you do attack their arguments, be careful! Don?t trod all over them or their beliefs.
4. Do NOT post an article / opinion for the sole purpose of trying to change people?s beliefs. We all suffer from a nasty little thing called confirmation bias ? we tend to twist the facts to fit our already-held beliefs. That means changing someone?s beliefs is hard and it?s highly unlikely that it?s going to happen on an internet forum.
5. Can we try to keep the rehashing of certain topics down to at least once a month? I know there is a large group of people here who believe in creation. There is a large group that holds evolution is how we got here. After all the mud-slinging is done in the three or four threads we have going right now about this topic, guess what? Everyone still holds the same belief. Therefore, starting ANOTHER topic about it five minutes later isn?t going to change anything. We are having the same conversations over and over and over again ? and it?s starting to get annoying.
6. Reading is important. If you want to post in a thread, make sure you that you?ve (1) read the original post and (2) followed the discussion that has preceded so you aren?t making a comment that has been made 20 or 30 times.


Before I leave this thread to you guys, I want to point out one contradiction in my own rules. This is something I can?t personally resolve, so maybe your input can help. This forum should be a place to discuss news and ideas and one way of doing that is pointing to articles that articulate a point better than you yourself can. I understand this. But, at the same time, I feel like articles are a spark for a flame fest, which is why I posted my first request. Is there a way to solve this dilemma? Can we have articles that don?t piss people off? Can they be the starting point of discussion? I think so and that?s why I just asked it to be LIMITED, not removed.

Anyway guys, I?ve got to go recruit some freshmen to our Frisbee team, so enjoy your day, and feel free to add to this list. I?ll revise it later tonight and we can see where we stand.

Thanks for reading.

 

[yllus]

The only justification for P&N is how it keeps the regulars in here from posting in the other forum areas. Anand should make the forum area hidden to guests so advertisers don't wander in here one day and terminate their contract out of sheer disgust.

Edit: If you think I'm joking, you might want to recall why OT was created in the first place. And the admin's reasoning for creating P&N after that. And your call to clean up our respective acts is pointless enough that I won't even bother addressing it. There's a reason for the general wisdom of never discussing politics with coworkers.

 

[Stunt]

1) posting articles tend to be more valid and relevant to the discussion topic. If every made an unsubstantiated comment it'd be useless, articles tend to initiate a disscussion with pros or cons with the odd flaming of the article rather than the poster right off the bat.

2) opinions are respected, if you make a claim that is not backed up or using logical reasoning, you will be held accountable for your words.

3) this has always been the case.arguments usually equal beliefs...that's a very hard line to walk

4) people are going to post here to change minds or enlighten each other. Or else there is no discussion, we might as well write journals.

5) can't really help it. It is up to the poster to seach for the topic. Usually it has a twist or different angle worth studying. If it is a useless copied post, it will go to the bottom of the pile.

6) agreed

very idealistic of you for thinking that you can change P&N with this post... But a little more respect from key forum members would be nice :thumbsup:

 

[Infohawk]

Interesting post, I agree with some of it and disagree with some of it.

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
1. Posting articles should be limited, IMO. Especially with little or no input from the poster himself.

I don't like posts where the OP doesn't add anything to the cut/paste. But it's hard to draw the line because some articles are shorter and to the point and do illicit good conversation.

2. Opinions should be RESPECTED. Everyone has a bias in the world and we all have to learn to respect that ? even if that is opposed to our own views of the world.

Too vague to be useful. What does RESPECT really mean? Do I have to treat creationism like it's on part with science?

3. If you disagree with someone, make sure you disagree with WHAT they say. Do not attack people personally. It?s a simple rule. Attack their arguments, but not them. When you do attack their arguments, be careful! Don?t trod all over them or their beliefs.

I used to push for this (gave up after a while). Theoretically this would not be too hard to enforce. Simply punish ad hominem. The problem is a large prorportion of posters (and even some mods?) don't really understand this concept. They equate a personal attack on George Bush with a personal attack on them. The way it is now though ad hominem is acceptable as long as it is not too vicious.

4. Do NOT post an article / opinion for the sole purpose of trying to change people?s beliefs.

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to change beliefs if you are going to engage the other person. I can think of certain religious types who want to change beliefs but aren't willing to listen to the other side and that's what makes it a problem.

5. Can we try to keep the rehashing of certain topics down to at least once a month?

At first glance this is a good idea. The problem is I've noticed stickies and old threads tend to kill discussion. They get too random and unrelated to the original topic. New threads serve as a sort of reset on the topic. Generally I'm not a fan of stickies unless they're uber timely topics like the debate thread during the presidential election. There it was useful to have a sticky for a couple hours to make sure people weren't just posting everywhere.

6. Reading is important. If you want to post in a thread, make sure you that you?ve (1) read the original post and (2) followed the discussion that has preceded so you aren?t making a comment that has been made 20 or 30 times.

Agreed. This is so true. Check out the recent evolution thread and you will see people making the same claim over and over even though the other side has debunked it. Now if they wanted to respond to the debunking, that's fair, but just bleeting the same initial response is lame. On the flip side this is impractical for long threads.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: yllus
The only justification for P&N is how it keeps the regulars in here from posting in the other forum areas.

It's true. Time and time again the mods have made it clear that P&N is a gutter and a release valve for the forums. The goal is not to promote reasonable discussion.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Stunt
very idealistic of you for thinking that you can change P&N with this post...

Yep, we've had these sorts of things attempted in the past. I helped for a little bit to calm some people down, but then it raged on a short while later. I'm not sure this time will be any different due to the current political climate and the emotions that need feed daily.

I still contend that the biggest "change" that needs to be implemented is a detailed and enforced set of guidelines for posting here. Sure some people would choose to not follow them and get booted, but we have those as it is now. Also, some might say that these guidelines will restrict their speech - well, as noted by the MODs many times- freespeech doesn't apply here - and furthermore speech such that would be outside the guidelines would likely not foster discussion.

Anyway - good luck in your endeavor. :thumbsup:

CsG

 

[Caminetto]

Everything here is fine. All people have strong opinions. Go back to OT if you like:
POST - OMFG I got the first hair on my a$$
POST - How long should it take to eat 1 peanut
POST - Does your mommy like Pepsi
POST - Was Elvis really seen on the moon

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
I remember when Politics and News was created.

I remember being a member pushing for it in Forum Issues.

I was really sick of seeing political threads in OT all the time and I thought it would create a good forum (literally) for the voicing and debating of political opinions.

It also was supposed to serve as a place where people could provide there own commentary on world events.

Sadly, P&N is really a shadow of the dream.

Instead of bringing some common understanding about opposing beliefs, P&N has simply polarized people even more than before.

Common understanding my A$$

Awwwww another RRR upset that the Sheeple are not happy about the Country being run by the FLL Regime and be ruined. Guess the non-brainwashed are supposed to just sit back and not dissent huh???

Here's your very very well deserved

 

[BarneyFife]

The only problem I have is some people are trying to push their own agenda on issues like condoms/abortion/sex/religion and cut and paste old articles with no opinion. I understand that everyone is trying to push an agenda of some type but their is no need to post an editorial from 5 years ago as a new topic.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
The only problem I have is some people are trying to push their own agenda on issues like condoms/abortion/sex/religion and cut and paste old articles with no opinion. I understand that everyone is trying to push an agenda of some type but their is no need to post an editorial from 5 years ago as a new topic.

There is definitely a lot of complaints about a certain religious fundamentalist lately. I think most people are upset because the poster isn't really listening to anyone and feels the need to spam the board with very similar threads. I think the non-responsiveness (i.e., bleat and run or bleat and side-step) of that poster is what gets most people's goat though.

 

[Rainsford]

I think this might be an overreaction. Come on, this is the internet, opinions always seem more extreme than they really are. You remember the days of "Intel vs AMD" in general hardware? I swear some of those guys (myself included) probably sounded like they were ready to kill the other guys. Annonymity and an audience generally brings out very strong statements, even if the people don't really mean it.

As long as we didn't talk about politics, I'd have a beer with almost any P&N poster. Hell, even if we DID talk politics I'd probably be fine with it, most people are much more normal than the internet would suggest

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I think this might be an overreaction. Come on, this is the internet, opinions always seem more extreme than they really are. You remember the days of "Intel vs AMD" in general hardware? I swear some of those guys (myself included) probably sounded like they were ready to kill the other guys. Annonymity and an audience generally brings out very strong statements, even if the people don't really mean it.

As long as we didn't talk about politics, I'd have a beer with almost any P&N poster. Hell, even if we DID talk politics I'd probably be fine with it, most people are much more normal than the internet would suggest

hmmmm beer...

 

[dahunan]

I only read one or two replies.. not even the first post.. Why.. because who in the hell could think that Anything to do with Politics could be good?

90% of Politicians are just rich fatcats who do the minimal work possible so they can keep sucking off the public tit and hope they can get in a position to share some titty with their friends..

 

[dahunan]

This is the way I also see ATOT... sometimes it can be great.. sometimes it feels lame

Originally posted by: Caminetto
Everything here is fine. All people have strong opinions. Go back to OT if you like:
POST - OMFG I got the first hair on my a$$
POST - How long should it take to eat 1 peanut
POST - Does your mommy like Pepsi
POST - Was Elvis really seen on the moon

 

[judasmachine]

this is the sphinctor of Anandtech but it's fun.

 

[jpeyton]

America is POLARIZED as a whole, so how can you expect P&N not to be? And we're not talking about a small divide; we're talking about HUGE differences in opinion because we're dealing with life & death issues like war, terrorism, and a faltering economy.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
I remember when Politics and News was created.

I remember being a member pushing for it in Forum Issues.

I was really sick of seeing political threads in OT all the time and I thought it would create a good forum (literally) for the voicing and debating of political opinions.

It also was supposed to serve as a place where people could provide there own commentary on world events.

Sadly, P&N is really a shadow of the dream.

Instead of bringing some common understanding about opposing beliefs, P&N has simply polarized people even more than before.

Common understanding my A$$

Awwwww another RRR upset that the Sheeple are not happy about the Country being run by the FLL Regime and be ruined. Guess the non-brainwashed are supposed to just sit back and not dissent huh???

Here's your very very well deserved

You cant be serious, right?

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
I?m writing this thread as a member of Anandtech and a (fairly) regular contributor to P&N. I?m a liberal. I don?t believe in god, creationsim, or that George Bush is a good president. There. I said it. That?s where I stand, and, sadly, P&N hasn?t helped me understand the conservative, religious, republicans. I don?t feel like the little dialogue we?ve had has been helpful.

 

[AnandTech Moderator]

You know how to clear out a room full of AT Moderators? Ask for someone to volunteeer to watch over P&N!

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: AnandTech Moderator
You know how to clear out a room full of AT Moderators? Ask for someone to volunteeer to watch over P&N!

That's like asking people to babysit a pit of rattlesnakes.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
I remember when Politics and News was created.

I remember being a member pushing for it in Forum Issues.

I was really sick of seeing political threads in OT all the time and I thought it would create a good forum (literally) for the voicing and debating of political opinions.

It also was supposed to serve as a place where people could provide there own commentary on world events.

Sadly, P&N is really a shadow of the dream.

Instead of bringing some common understanding about opposing beliefs, P&N has simply polarized people even more than before.

Common understanding my A$$

Awwwww another RRR upset that the Sheeple are not happy about the Country being run by the FLL Regime and be ruined. Guess the non-brainwashed are supposed to just sit back and not dissent huh???

Here's your very very well deserved

You cant be serious, right?

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
I?m writing this thread as a member of Anandtech and a (fairly) regular contributor to P&N. I?m a liberal. I don?t believe in god, creationsim, or that George Bush is a good president. There. I said it. That?s where I stand, and, sadly, P&N hasn?t helped me understand the conservative, religious, republicans. I don?t feel like the little dialogue we?ve had has been helpful.

Absolutely Serious. Wolves can hide in Sheepskin:

You may have said "I don?t believe in god, creationsim, or that George Bush is a good president" but your call for action of hiding of all articles and the truth as well as the elimination of this P&N Forum of dissent to the Regime says otherwise.

 

[biostud]

I try to focus only on what is said in one thread and ignore personal attacks, as answering them only makes it worse.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: judasmachine

Originally posted by: AnandTech Moderator
You know how to clear out a room full of AT Moderators? Ask for someone to volunteeer to watch over P&N!

That's like asking people to babysit a pit of rattlesnakes.

Ah, but if there were guidelines in place it would be like watching a bunch of dogs. Might be some barking, but the kennels would keep them in line. I don't really see it as a problem that can't be solved. Some might throw their hands up and scurry away - but it's not really that difficult.

CsG

Good analogy comparing this Forum to a Kennel full of dogs. Try not to step in anything:laugh:

 

[alchemize]

I find it funny that you can't discuss debate or forum rules without folks instantly inserting their political views into it

Infohawk slips a religious evolution/creationism jab in.
Dave trots out his chatty cathy doll
Barneyfife takes issues with agendas other than his own.
JPeyton talks about polarized america
AnandTechModerator talks about boycotting an election

Did I miss any?

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: alchemize
I find it funny that you can't discuss debate or forum rules without folks instantly inserting their political views into it

Did I miss any?

Yeah, you only pointing out people on the other side of the "aisle."

EDIT: PS Maybe shinerburke wouldn't be banned if he didnt' have a childish fumod thing in everyone's sig. And why jpeg and not html for text? If anyone has an example of BBond being a troll I'd like to see it-- he's been pretty well-behaved from what I've seen.

Please PM him those examples.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: alchemize
I find it funny that you can't discuss debate or forum rules without folks instantly inserting their political views into it

Infohawk slips a religious evolution/creationism jab in.
Dave trots out his chatty cathy doll
Barneyfife takes issues with agendas other than his own.
JPeyton talks about polarized america
AnandTechModerator talks about boycotting an election

Did I miss any?

Have any left leaning posters that you actually do respect and look forward to their point of view.
you can point out rotton apples on this forum all day.
if you feel you are not getting intellectual stimultation from the other side on this forum...what do you get out of it?