P&N Community Poll (mod-sponsored): Renewal Vote on "No Personal Attacks/Insult" Rule

Permanently Adopt The "No Insults and No Personal Attacks" Policy?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Hello P&N forum members and community at large,

Three months ago this community voted on, and approved, the adoption of a "No Personal Attacks/Insults" policy as captured in this community poll thread.

The policy was intentionally implemented with an expiration date such that the community would have the opportunity to assess for themselves whether or not an anti-personal attacks policy was workable and have the desired effect by way of a trial period.

That trial period expires today (Jun 06, 2012).

As such, this new poll is dedicated to the community voting on permanent adoption of the same "No insults and no personal attack" policy that has been in effect since Mar 06, 2012.

From a moderator standpoint we would like to see this policy permanently adopted for all the obvious reasons. There doesn't appear to be any down-sides to the policy considering it has already been in effect these past 3 months. And the effectiveness of the policy will only increase as time goes on and the moderators have more time to allocate to the pursuit of minimizing friction and ill-will between community members.

However, regardless the preference of the moderators, the decision is up to the community, so please log your vote - for or against - the permanent adoption of the same "no insults and no personal attacks" policy that has been in effect these past 3 months.

If adopted then we basically just keep the status quo from the past 3 months. If not adopted then we go back to the way things were last winter (for better or worse).

One note of clarification - very recently we had to amend this rule to reduce the volume of false leads and misreports on what were turning out to not be bonafide personal attacks. That amendment was very much a temporary measure to deal with what was hoped to be a temporary resource shortfall. The rule being voted on here is not for permanent adoption of the recently amended rule; rather, it is for adoption of the full monte "no insults" rule as was originally voted on by the community back in March.

The reported post queue has quelled down, as expected and as needed, and we feel we can once again return to the full implementation of the original "no insults" rule.

Meaning anyone and everyone can report posts which they feel contain personal attacks or insults.

The poll will be open for 7 days. Thank you for your time.

Administrator Idontcare
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,110
32,477
136
It's not the end of the world if this gets permanently adopted but it will be a real shame. It's like banning spice from food because some don't like the heat. :thumbsdown:
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
2
76
lot of nasty people on the internet. I'm not at all opposed to making everyone be polite. Keeps our collective blood pressure much lower :)
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,703
54,697
136
It's not the end of the world if this gets permanently adopted but it will be a real shame. It's like banning spice from food because some don't like the heat. :thumbsdown:

Meh. If it is permanently adopted I'll leave. I don't plan on changing what I write, there are plenty of other forums without what is bound to be a silly and arbitrarily enforced rule, and I won't bother consuming more moderator resources by having them enforce a dumb rule.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Meh. If it is permanently adopted I'll leave. I don't plan on changing what I write, there are plenty of other forums without what is bound to be a silly and arbitrarily enforced rule, and I won't bother consuming more moderator resources by having them enforce a dumb rule.

Well that stinks and I can see where you're coming from.

My issue is with a pervasive disrespect in many threads and my hope that just having this sort of rule would potentially make people more likely to consider their tone.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
It does nothing but increase arbitrary banning


Will not be solved by capricious enforcement of a highly nebulous rule.
I think it's even worse than that. "Arbitrary" would be an improvement. As much as I think a blanket prohibition against insults is unnecessary and counterproductive, I think enforcing it via member reporting makes it 100 times worse. It replaces even-handed moderation with vigilantism, essentially ceding moderation authority to crybabies, trolls, and the tyrants who are determined to suppress contrary points of view. Those of us who are not so thin-skinned and who are open to hearing others' opinions will rarely (or never) report posts. Those who are immature or troublemakers will constantly cry to the mods that, "Jimmy called me a name! Tell Billy to stop looking at me!".

We apparently already saw this problem, with the mods being buried in mostly specious complaints, yet management wants to push it forward anyway. It just makes no sense to me at all. But it's not for me to say. Like everyone else, I am truly just a freeloading guest. It is Anand's sandbox and we must live by his rules.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
108
106
I don't think we should permanently ban personal attacks and insults.

If I post something someone vehemently disagrees with and the reply: You're a flipping idiot because.. AB and C... and XYZ..." then, I think it's ok to have a very different opinion as long as an explanation pertaining to the disagreement follows, and a valid counter-point is made. A good discussion can ensue. Still, showing respect to the other person and their different POV should take priority.

What I think should be removed is people just attacking and insulting you without even making a counter-point. (I don't see much of that here anyway). Nothing's worse than someone quoting you on something they disagree with, and ALL you see in reply is a: "Wrong, stupid, go learn to read", with nothing else in reply.

Honestly, I enjoy reading through threads and seeing some insulting when discussion is still going on. It's quite entertaining! Removing that all together I think should be reserved for much, much smaller communities.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
So what about all the attacks on religious groups. An awful lot of members are constantly try to insult and belittle people based on being a Christian or catholic or belonging to any religious group. You going to ban such people???
 

CrackRabbit

Lifer
Mar 30, 2001
16,642
62
91
So what about all the attacks on religious groups. An awful lot of members are constantly try to insult and belittle people based on being a Christian or catholic or belonging to any religious group. You going to ban such people???

Considering they are attacking a group and not an individual then I don't see why that wouldn't be allowed (even if you are part of the group being insulted).
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,110
32,477
136
So what about all the attacks on religious groups. An awful lot of members are constantly try to insult and belittle people based on being a Christian or catholic or belonging to any religious group. You going to ban such people???
Asked (by you):
So you also going to ban people who ridicule people base upon their religion or just ridicules religion as a whole? Arent they insulting people of fait?
And answered (by a mod):
This is where ideality meets reality.

Ideally we would not allow discrimination. Period. Exclamation point. Period.

But the reality is that we can barely keep our heads above water combating the blatant racism (let alone the subtle stuff).

Going after discrimination across the board, stamping out intolerance and so forth, is the dream. But Rome wasn't built in a day and right now we'd be doing good to get a handle on the trolls at the moment.

When it comes right down to it, judging others and condemning them for their belief in xyz is pretty much what this forum is all about at this time. And that basically means this forum is about committing acts of discrimination and intolerance against one another, guided by prejudice with a side of socioeconomic bias.

So if we ride into this town on our horses, brandish our shiny sheriff badges and start arresting everyone who discriminates against their fellow human then we'll have all the townsfolk locked up in a fortnight. Nobody wants that.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
So what about all the attacks on religious groups. An awful lot of members are constantly try to insult and belittle people based on being a Christian or catholic or belonging to any religious group. You going to ban such people???

You shouldn't be allowed to attack a poster solely because of their religion. You should be allowed to criticize a religion. You can analogize it with party affiliation. Saying that Democrats are socialists is not the same thing as an individual poster is stupid.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,703
54,697
136
Considering they are attacking a group and not an individual then I don't see why that wouldn't be allowed (even if you are part of the group being insulted).

Which is of course what always happens. People will say "liberals think/are the following horrible things", which is of course deliberately made to insult people. Somehow that's okay. It just shows the total futility of making these kinds of rules, people can always find ways around them if they are determined to be assholes.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,110
32,477
136
Which is of course what always happens. People will say "liberals think/are the following horrible things", which is of course deliberately made to insult people. Somehow that's okay. It just shows the total futility of making these kinds of rules, people can always find ways around them if they are determined to be assholes.
Didn't take too long to find an example:
Do liberals have any principles? I thought they where all satan worshiping, tree hugging ultra liberal, eletist, nature loving, sodomites?
 

CrackRabbit

Lifer
Mar 30, 2001
16,642
62
91
Which is of course what always happens. People will say "liberals think/are the following horrible things", which is of course deliberately made to insult people. Somehow that's okay. It just shows the total futility of making these kinds of rules, people can always find ways around them if they are determined to be assholes.

Don't blame me; I didn't make the rule, and I voted against it.

I also don't care. As I have said in the past I will continue to call spades as such, infractions be damned.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
I voted YES, even though I have personally suffered from the rule. Blanket statements are not the same as saying "poster ZYX has sex with dead people.
 

UberNeuman

Lifer
Nov 4, 1999
16,937
3,087
126
I voted no - as it's far too easy to slide an insult in, while not oblivious, is still an insult...
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
I am a big boy and can take name calling and insults.

What I can't stand is people who take any criticism of their hard ingrained political stances as a "personal attack" and "insult to their beliefs".
Grow up and get some thicker skin.
I say No. Bring on the insults. I will just outwit you anyway.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
What I can't stand is people who take any criticism of their hard ingrained political stances as a "personal attack" and "insult to their beliefs".

It sounds like people don't understand how the rule works. You can still criticize political opinions and even beliefs. You can't attack people.

Idontcare maybe it's necessary to repost the details about what is and isn't an offense under this rule?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,703
54,697
136
Don't blame me; I didn't make the rule, and I voted against it.

I also don't care. As I have said in the past I will continue to call spades as such, infractions be damned.

I also originally just planned to ignore it, but Idoncare brought up a good point. It's consuming moderator resources to have to keep giving people infractions all the time and that's not really fair to the moderators.

There are plenty of other forums on the internet that haven't put in these silly rules so I would just use one of them instead.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
There are plenty of other forums on the internet that haven't put in these silly rules so I would just use one of them instead.

Like the comments section on Yahoo? This is now at least the second time you've suggested there are tons of other options but I am suspicious. What are some of these other places you're thinking of?

I have a lot of issues with the way P&N is run, but in my opinion it's fairly unique. The places with no rules are cesspools like the comments sections on many sites. P&N's appeal is that it has a pretty solid mix of both right and left-wingers and perhaps most importantly has the right number of posters. It's few enough that you remember posters' past positions and posting personalities but not so few that the place is a graveyard.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,703
54,697
136
Like the comments section on Yahoo? This is now at least the second time you've suggested there are tons of other options but I am suspicious. What are some of these other places you're thinking of?

I have a lot of issues with the way P&N is run, but in my opinion it's fairly unique. The places with no rules are cesspools like the comments sections on many sites. P&N's appeal is that it has a pretty solid mix of both right and left-wingers and perhaps most importantly has the right number of posters. It's few enough that you remember posters' past positions and posting personalities but not so few that the place is a graveyard.

I will PM you, as I wouldn't want some people from this place to infect other ones. Rest assured, this place is not unique, and places without rules are not necessarily cesspools. I find a number of the people here interesting and I like it. I am not going to wrestle with the mods over retarded new rules however.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
4
0
Grow up and get some thicker skin.
I say No. Bring on the insults. I will just outwit you anyway.

Hear hear. I don't use a lot of insults but I detest limitations on what can be said. I voted no.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,888
2,788
136
FYI, saying that someone comes off as arrogant is now against the rules. This is confusing, I think we need a more detailed flow chart.