Overseas Americans and Non-Americans

[randomrogue]

So this is going to be my 2nd Presidential Election where I am living overseas. I have found that my perception of the whole process is very different when I'm not at home. I have a feeling it's mostly due to the lack of mass media spewing American presidential politics into my ear. I can basically look at the whole process, the candidates, their policies, etc. and make a decision based upon my own beliefs and not the beliefs that are being yelled into my ear. It also seems to be much easier to sift the lies from the truth. A lot of politics seems to me to be based upon confusing and misleading people with different statistics and just who can make the most noise (the whole if you tell a lie that's big enough people will eventually believe it). There is definitely a lot of "catering to the lowest common denominator" going on. What we perceive as a flip-flop is just candidates having to switch to a new lowest common denominator (primary vs general election). Everything just seems much more obvious over here. A good example would be a candidate yelling in your ear (not mine, I'm over here) that the whole economy is in shambles and worse than it was in 2008 while I simply look at reality and see something completely different.

Anyone else find they have a different experience overseas?

Although you'll probably piss off a few Americans I would be interested in the non-American perspective as well. Just recognize that we don't vote for what you want. We vote for our domestic needs first with international affairs a far second. The reason I find the international opinion interesting is because it's generally so drastically different than the American one. The concept of not having free education and healthcare for example just boggles the European mind.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

If I've learned one thing following U.S. politics, it's that Americans are retarded.

And Republicans are pure ROFL.

 

[randomrogue]

Yeah I'd be interested if there is a single person on this forum who lives overseas and could imagine themselves voting for any Republican. I have yet to meet one. They think Romney is a giant joke over here.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

Yeah I'd be interested if there is a single person on this forum who lives overseas and could imagine themselves voting for any Republican. I have yet to meet one. They think Romney is a giant joke over here.

Exactly.

Whenever I watch shit on tv like the GOP convention or whatever, it's like it's a joke that you guys just don't get. Everyone else in the world can see that these people are totally nuts, but you guys can't.

It's weird.

 

[SheHateMe]

I thought it was interesting when the Prime Minister in the UK (?) said that the citizens there are against Mittens being President. This is not just an election for the US, but for the World...Mittens has burned the bridge with one of our biggest allies. This guy just simply cannot be allowed in the White House!

 

[EagleKeeper]

Given that a large percentage of the world loves the US handouts; why would they not appreciate the Democrats more. They specialized in handing out $$ to others who are poor and less fortunate that the perceived status of the US.

 

[randomrogue]

Given that a large percentage of the world loves the US handouts; why would they not appreciate the Democrats more. They specialized in handing out $$ to others who are poor and less fortunate that the perceived status of the US.

I live in Europe. Not sure what handouts they get over here but that has nothing to do with any of this. It's simply a matter of common sense. Europeans look at American politics and think we're joking. Then they realize we're serious and they find it even funnier. Romney is a joke. Has nothing to do with R vs D either since Europe liked Reagan.

It really boils down to basic common sense that we're lacking. For example the amount of money we spend on healthcare and education despite it not being available to everyone. The amount we spend on the military baffles people. The fact that people retire and can't afford food in the states. The list goes on. We are considered a failing super power and there are many who think we shouldn't even give any media time to the USA election since we really don't matter anymore.

The thing that really irks me is how much time we spend worrying about abortion and gay rights when to much of the rest of the world this is common sense and a god given right. Europeans don't get why we're so ass backwards on this.

 

[blackangst1]

FWIW I have a close friend who lives in Manila (has for the last 12 years) and he and his expat friends there think Obama is a buffoon and a joke. *shrug* Maybe theyre the exception. Would have to troll the expat boards to see I guess.

 

[LurkerPrime]

Exactly.

Whenever I watch shit on tv like the GOP convention or whatever, it's like it's a joke that you guys just don't get. Everyone else in the world can see that these people are totally nuts, but you guys can't.

It's weird.

Most of us know that they are nuts. Its just that we are given a choice between 2 evils and its up to us to decide which is the lesser of the 2. The real issues are always skirted around and stupid things are always brought up like abortion or gay rights as smoke screen to entertain the masses.

Politicians never want to talk about the real issues, since its "political suicide". Since they dont talk about those issues (since they want to get re-elected), nothing ever gets solved.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Where are you living in Europe?

I wish all Americans were in one way or another required to have a "gap" year. Meaning, between high school and college, they'd have to spend one year outside North America.

This would do wonders for our country!

In fact, my ideal US education system would consist of the following:

-Grades 1-8 would be pretty much like they are now except students would be required to begin taking their first foreign language in first grade and then start a second foreign language around sixth grade. Both foreign languages, in addition to English, would be learned throughout the end of high school.

-At Grade 9, students would choose themselves between a college-prep or vocational-prep high school. The former would prepare them for university and the latter for a technical or service vocation. The vocational schools would partner with industry and at 11th and 12th grades, students would conduct work-study apprenticeships.

-To be fair to the vast political spectrum in the US, all the "controversial" stuff would be taught. Creation theory would be taught along with Evolution. All students would be required to take religion/ethics classes alongside sex education, etc.

-The teachers' union would be abolished. At the end of each academic year, students would have to take a written/oral (never multiple-choice) test that serves as both a grade-exit/next-grade-entry exam. If over 70% of a teacher's class passes this test, then her/his contract is renewed. (These tests would be graded by an anonymous counterpart teaching a similar grade/subject at a different school in the region.) After a given number of successful years, the teacher gets promoted. Teacher salaries would start at $60K and max out at say $120K after 20 years. Any sort of pension would be tied to at least 20 successive years of service and this could only be achieved by the aforementioned testing scheme.

-Students that maintain a certain GPA or higher through the end of college-prep (3.0 or higher) or vocational-prep (2.0 or higher) high school would receive a fully-subsidized "apprentice" year outside of North America. This year would permit them to practice one of the two foreign languages learned since 1st grade. This year would allow them to be fully immersed in a foreign culture as well as provide them with hands-on work experience as a volunteer, etc. They wouldn't be paid but would have their living expenses subsidized.

-Following their gap year, university students that maintain a 3.0 GPA or higher within a technical or hard-science degree field would qualify to be reimbursed after ca. 4 years for the tuition costs of their Bachelor's Degree. Same goes for those that maintain a 3.0 or higher obtaining their Master's Degree. Such reimbursement would NOT exist for students of Business, Legal or Liberal Arts, etc.

-Following their gap year, graduates of a vocational high school would refine and specialize their education through two more years of work-study programs between community colleges and local industries. They would of course be paid for their on-the-job work. Ideally, at the conclusion of the company-sponsored work-study program, the apprentice would be hired by that company full-time.


So yeah, that is my pipe dream for the US education system. Sorry for the long post.

 

[bfdd]

Uh most of Europe simply replaced God with Government and that's what people are trying to do here as well. Socialists back in the day used to believe in state religion, now it seems to be thenoppositenkind of weird no? No right to education because you cannot force someone to teach you. No right to healthcare because no one is forced to treat you. Charity > government

 

[PJABBER]

FWIW, I just got back from over a year in France and have lived and worked about 50 percent of my adult life outside the US, mostly Asia and Europe.

Any comments I am making are going to be a composite, just like Obama's autobiographical references.

1. The US is actually loved by many individuals for many different reasons - their relatives emigrated here and are sending lots of money back, it is the land of opportunity and of fantasy, etc. In a group, however, you will very seldom find much consensus that the US is all that great.

2. Foreigners with any kind of education at all are much more in tune with what is going on here than Americans are of what is going on there, wherever there is. They generally acknowledge that the press they read or watch on TV are lying, politically pandering POSs, just like the mainstream press in the US. However, they do think that they can delve the truth from the froth.

3. Politics are very commonly discussed and I have gotten into more sophisticated and knowledgeable discussions out of the US than in the US. They pay more attention and they believe politics matter, even if they themselves are not in any position to influence what is going on without some major upheaval.

4. There is often a dynamic struggle between the local version of socialist ideals and practical matters. In almost all cases the practical, ie capitalist or market driven, solution is what is actually done. Everybody knows this. Many wonder why the US is now emulating the failures of other countries when before they took a different path.

5. The United States is often viewed as very powerful and very naive. Everybody knows that we can project power and influence world events, but everybody wonders at the choices that are made. It is almost as if we are willfully ignorant.

6. The power of the Presidency is often misunderstood. It is imbued with more power, almost to the level of regency, than is actually the case. For this reason, the US presidential race is a common enough topic of discussion.

7. Obama is a complex character to describe from the perspective of foreign nationals. He is considered woefully ignorant and naive at the same time that he is described as someone who understands whatever needs understanding. On the whole, he has moved from being someone that many hoped would be a transcendent figure to one that is the same ol', same ol'. He has shrunk dramatically in stature and he is now seen as an ineffective international leader and a panderer to other national leaders. He is still a dangerous national leader for wars continue to be conducted, but he is seen as indecisive and without any overreaching strategy.

8. Romney is ill-defined for foreigners. For most, he is a big money businessman and represents monied interests.

9. Americans overseas also have very mixed perspectives, kind of like the split in the US. The great majority of military types are anti-Obama, that should be no surprise. The typically left wing diplomatic corps are pro-Obama. The business community of ex-pats is, by my reckoning, more in favor of Obama than Romney at the moment, but the passion of those who are really tracking what is going on in the US is generally pro-Romney.

10. There is a palpable disappointment in the expat community in what Obama has failed to do. There is a genuine concern for the fiscal malfeasance and the massive debt that is accumulating. Many are very close to the disasters of working in countries that have taken this route in the past and are still trying to do so even today. Many wonder why the US is pursuing a course of action that has failed elsewhere.

 

[yllus]

I know lots of Pakistanis who hate Obama (for obvious reasons). They don't really know who Romney is, which I guess is a good or bad thing depending on your perspective.

Here in Canada I don't think we much care who Americans elect, but it does seem pretty clear that the two parties have effectively broken the American legislative system. It so happens that the final steps in near complete gridlock happened with Republicans in opposition, but the Democrats would have done the same in their place. I think you might need to look at Constitutional amendments to get through the mess you're now in.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

<snip>

I agree with parts of this, such as paying teachers a living wage and turning tenure into a meritocracy that rewards effective teachers while cutting out the dead weight. But the biggest problem you'll have with the system you propose is meeting education standards in poorer communities where an emphasis on education is not instilled in children by parents or peers. You'd be having an annual turnover rate of 100% at schools in poor communities, and that's not going to help anyone. That's always been the biggest challenge of the US educational system; how do you adequately educate people who come from a culture which places zero value on formal education? You can't just cut those communities loose, and rehiring a completely new batch of teachers every year isn't feasible. But how do we get families in those communities to place more of a value on education? Who knows? Nothing that's been tried so far has proven terribly effective; firing a bunch of teachers every year probably won't help either.

 

[randomrogue]

FWIW I have a close friend who lives in Manila (has for the last 12 years) and he and his expat friends there think Obama is a buffoon and a joke. *shrug* Maybe theyre the exception. Would have to troll the expat boards to see I guess.

Now that I think about it the expat community here doesn't talk politics. We mostly talk about where to get good Mexican food, steak, and a burger. All kidding aside politics rarely comes up with Americans here.

When it comes to the Europeans though they generally will ask what I think of Obama and if I'm disappointed in him. I think most people had higher expectations of him and although they don't think he's bad they really were hoping for something different. He has fallen into the political mold a bit too much for people's taste.

Nobody here thinks anyone would vote for Romney. If I said I was they would first think I was joking and then get pretty scared. It's just not part of rational thought here. The value system is so drastically different.

 

[randomrogue]

Where are you living in Europe?

I wish all Americans were in one way or another required to have a "gap" year. Meaning, between high school and college, they'd have to spend one year outside North America.

This would do wonders for our country!

In fact, my ideal US education system would consist of the following:

<snip>


So yeah, that is my pipe dream for the US education system. Sorry for the long post.

I'm not going to say where I live since I appreciate some level of anonymity on the internet. I will however say that I live in Western Europe and not in one of the failing economies (Portugal, Greece, Spain, and Italy). Down there they don't talk about American politics since they have their own problems to deal with. I was just in Spain and Italy and it was very depressing. They're in deep trouble.

When it comes to Education I went to school in both the USA and Europe and I really think they have a better "High School" system here, totally agree with you on the gap year idea (I took one), but when it comes to University the USA dominates. I would highly recommend that all Americans do a year in a foreign country, maybe even some University, but definitely finish your degree in America (unless you're trying to be a Doctor or a Lawyer in Europe).

Where I do disagree with you is about teaching creationism. See http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/ for why I feel that way.

I also don't feel that Religion should be taught in school. If people want to be taught these things then there is Sunday school.

 

[randomrogue]

Uh most of Europe simply replaced God with Government and that's what people are trying to do here as well. Socialists back in the day used to believe in state religion, now it seems to be thenoppositenkind of weird no? No right to education because you cannot force someone to teach you. No right to healthcare because no one is forced to treat you. Charity > government

Not sure what you're trying to say but one thing that struck me as kinda odd was that my taxes are lower in Europe at certain tax brackets and only a few percent higher at others. Yet here I get free Education, Healthcare (minimal cost), public transport (minimal cost), and a ton of paid vacation with the option to take unpaid leave as well. It's a great standard of living. You can call it Socialist or talk about them being godless but frankly I don't care what label is on it. With my boots on the ground here it is definitely a nice break from my normal life in the states. I'll of course have to go back one day but I'm definitely going to have to live in a city like New York or San Francisco after this and get a job that doesn't ask you to work 95% of the year.