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Outsourcing: a micro perspective

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
I confess, I am guilty of outsourcing. I outsource the production of my food, clothes, car, many other objects I buy; I also outsource services like haircuts, food preparation, entertainment. Now why would I not do these tasks on my own? Because there are others out there who can do them better, cheaper, and faster than I can. Besides I am perfectly happy giving compensation for these objects and services, even if they buy nothing in return.

Now that we can see some of the great opportunities outsourcing allows for, we can now consider where we are willing to draw the line when it comes to buying these items. Ideally people would like to support their own communities and would look to outsource close to their home. Say I live in New York City; I'm not a big fan of the food produced within the city and would likely turn to rural areas to supply my food, seems logical right? But why should I have to settle for a expensive, lower quality food products from my small state, it makes much more sense to get my dairy from wisconsin, potatoes from idaho, etc. Similarly with many other products; because my area of the world is too costly for that particular product, I look to compensate people in other areas even within my own country for these goods and services.

But that's still ok right? Paying people in another state to produce my food and other items i buy. I mean my state's potato and dairy producers aren't too impressed by my decision, and instead of funds staying within my own state I'm not supporting my community. Could this be morally wrong? Should we be jumping up and down to stop this horrendous injustice? Of course not, it's a much better use of limited resources for me to buy from another state as property values are lower, the product is similar, and will be much less expensive. Does the farmer buy products from me? No. But he sells me a good product at a fair price and I am happy with this.

Now finally take it onto the national level, why should this be any different? Everybody in our country conciously outsources on a day to day basis; either due to quality, cost or both. Remember outsourcing can be the purchase of a fine italian leather, or a bottle of aged french wine.

By definition trade is the exchange of goods and services mutually benificial for both parties. It is trade that has allowed each nation to specialize in production of certain products at a lower price. So the argument to keep *everything* within one's borders is not only less than ideal, but repressive for increasing productivity and wealth.

It's not as simple as equating labour of nation 1 vs. labour of nation 2. Outsourcing tends to go to areas of political instability and low capital investment is desired, therefore more labour is required for the same output (less automation means less consumption of energy during manufacture). Also, these regions are long distances away and require extremely large inventories for warehousing and during shipment; causing much more costs and inflexibility to customer demand. That's not even considering costs to ship and distribute these goods as you are so focused on in this thread. Therefore it's not just a labour issue as magomago thinks; there are many other cost considerations when deciding to outsource.

It is for these reasons I fully support the outsourcing of manufacturing when economically justified, as it is the most efficient use of limited resources, we increase our productivity and wealth, and we allow the poorer nations of the world a chance to better their lives. Read Here

Companies who do not remain competitive will not survive and eventually die. If a company in the US decides to go against the most economically favourable route (ie. to outsource or not to outsource), within a margin of course; they will likely underperform, lose investment and become a burden on the economy through debt, lack of profits and poor opportunities for growth.

Don't be short sighted in saying that domestic products are always in our best interests, and don't assume outsourcing is a bad thing. It will be up to the company to outsource or not and I full support the most effective way to produce. This is the only way we will continue to grow and succeed; the biggest growth periods have been expericienced through the reduction of trade barriers, don't push backwards through short-sighted reasoning.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Ok you have shown overall outsourcing is better now show that it is better for the average americian.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
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I agree with Stunt, it outsourcing makes economic sense, I'm all for it. What I think is becoming increasingly clear, and something I've been arguing since the whole craze started, is that much of the current outsourcing does NOT make economic sense. Business leaders have fallen into the trap of believing that all labor is simply a commodity, where the only distinction is price. Yet clearly that is not the case in most situations. When we're talking about non-skilled jobs where labor truly IS a commodity, that's one thing. But the outsourcing craze for skilled jobs is starting to taper off, for one simple reason, it DOESN'T make economic sense.

Edit: And that's to say nothing of the problems low wage countries tend to have, whether it's India's HUGE economic gaps and poor infrastructure or China's authoritarian government and laughable concept of intellectual property. Even if labor was equal, I would have trouble relying on the stability of either of those two countries when my business was at stake.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I agree with Stunt, it outsourcing makes economic sense, I'm all for it. What I think is becoming increasingly clear, and something I've been arguing since the whole craze started, is that much of the current outsourcing does NOT make economic sense. Business leaders have fallen into the trap of believing that all labor is simply a commodity, where the only distinction is price. Yet clearly that is not the case in most situations. When we're talking about non-skilled jobs where labor truly IS a commodity, that's one thing. But the outsourcing craze for skilled jobs is starting to taper off, for one simple reason, it DOESN'T make economic sense.
Yeah, there is more than just labour involved; inventories, shipping costs, closure costs, reduced agility can kill any business.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I agree with Stunt, it outsourcing makes economic sense, I'm all for it. What I think is becoming increasingly clear, and something I've been arguing since the whole craze started, is that much of the current outsourcing does NOT make economic sense. Business leaders have fallen into the trap of believing that all labor is simply a commodity, where the only distinction is price. Yet clearly that is not the case in most situations. When we're talking about non-skilled jobs where labor truly IS a commodity, that's one thing. But the outsourcing craze for skilled jobs is starting to taper off, for one simple reason, it DOESN'T make economic sense.
Yeah, there is more than just labour involved; inventories, shipping costs, closure costs, reduced agility can kill any business.

Indeed, and I'm not really sure labor is as interchangable as we might believe. The same inequality that applies to American job applicants with the same kind of experience and degree certainly applies just as much, if not more, when we're talking about competition between countries.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
I'm all for outsourcing too, let's outsource Stunt to some remote Island with no Internets :laugh:

Here is what I like about outsourcing, it keeps us honest. For example, I think the situation 10-15 years ago, where computer science types were so in demand that they could name their own salary even if they had a degree from Bob Jones University, was a bad thing for the industry. The threat of foreign competition has removed part of the labor scarcity and forced people to really try and be competitive. I graduated about a year ago with an area of study that very few people in THIS country know much about, to say nothing of other countries. I'm secure in my employment, for a while at least, because I tried to not just be another guy with a generic set of skills. I'm not sure I would have done that had I been able to breeze through a generic CS degree and get a six figure job right away.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
I'm all for outsourcing too, let's outsource Stunt to some remote Island with no Internets :laugh:
Ah yes...the "go away" argument.
I can tell I'm dealing with intelligent people here :cookie:
If you spent half the time you spend trolling actually researching some of these subjects you might actually get some respect from people around here.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
I'm all for outsourcing too, let's outsource Stunt to some remote Island with no Internets :laugh:
Ah yes...the "go away" argument.
I can tell I'm dealing with intelligent people here :cookie:
If you spent half the time you spend trolling actually researching some of these subjects you might actually get some respect from people around here.

I don't need any more research.

USA Number One, all others can go to remote islands.
 
Jan 31, 2002
40,819
2
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
I'm all for outsourcing too, let's outsource Stunt to some remote Island with no Internets :laugh:
Ah yes...the "go away" argument.
I can tell I'm dealing with intelligent people here :cookie:
If you spent half the time you spend trolling actually researching some of these subjects you might actually get some respect from people around here.

I don't need any more research.

USA Number One, all others can go to remote islands.

You forgot to fire off your six-shooters, Tex.

- M4H
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Nobody has a legitimate rebuttal?
There's a ton of people who disagree with outsourcing on the forum, yet all is silent.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Stunt
Nobody has a legitimate rebuttal?
There's a ton of people who disagree with outsourcing on the forum, yet all is silent.

Because it is a lost cause.

You and your ilk have already succeeded in destroying the Country with your Ant-America Hating Agenda. Congrats.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
Nobody has a legitimate rebuttal?
There's a ton of people who disagree with outsourcing on the forum, yet all is silent.
Because it is a lost cause.

You and your ilk have already succeeded in destroying the Country with your Ant-America Hating Agenda. Congrats.
I don't hate America at all.
What I advocate in this thread applies to Canada as well, the US is not the only country in the world who trades you know, Dave.
Hell, my country outsources a lot of work to the US; I'm sure you are against this as well.

I wish one day you will actually make an argument and not make baseless accusations.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
Nobody has a legitimate rebuttal?
There's a ton of people who disagree with outsourcing on the forum, yet all is silent.
Because it is a lost cause.

You and your ilk have already succeeded in destroying the Country with your Ant-America Hating Agenda. Congrats.
I don't hate America at all.
What I advocate in this thread applies to Canada as well, the US is not the only country in the world who trades you know, Dave.
Hell, my country outsources a lot of work to the US; I'm sure you are against this as well.

I wish one day you will actually make an argument and not make baseless accusations.

Is Canada suffering from the Outsourcing?
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Nobody has a legitimate rebuttal?
There's a ton of people who disagree with outsourcing on the forum, yet all is silent.

Like I stated your argument is based on what is best for the companies and not the nation or working class people.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
Nobody has a legitimate rebuttal?
There's a ton of people who disagree with outsourcing on the forum, yet all is silent.
Because it is a lost cause.

You and your ilk have already succeeded in destroying the Country with your Ant-America Hating Agenda. Congrats.
I don't hate America at all.
What I advocate in this thread applies to Canada as well, the US is not the only country in the world who trades you know, Dave.
Hell, my country outsources a lot of work to the US; I'm sure you are against this as well.

If there is outsourcing to the US, it's got to be very miniscule. If anything, the US outsources to Canada. Occasionally you'll read about a Canadian company outsourcing to a US company, but that US company would actually open the call center in Canada! And may even hire some of the laid off workers! Why do they do this? To dump the union. Bell did just this in the late 90s.


Ontario?s 6.5 million workers are well educated. 55% of our workforce (25-64years) have completed their post-secondary education. That?s a higher percentage than any industrialized country
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
Nobody has a legitimate rebuttal?
There's a ton of people who disagree with outsourcing on the forum, yet all is silent.
Because it is a lost cause.

You and your ilk have already succeeded in destroying the Country with your Ant-America Hating Agenda. Congrats.
I don't hate America at all.
What I advocate in this thread applies to Canada as well, the US is not the only country in the world who trades you know, Dave.
Hell, my country outsources a lot of work to the US; I'm sure you are against this as well.

I wish one day you will actually make an argument and not make baseless accusations.

Is Canada suffering from the Outsourcing?

Not anything like the US. Partly because the Canadian dollar wasn't that strong until recently (I LOVE YOU BUSH!!!)... and partly because there aren't too many companies in Canada that are large enough to benefit from outsourcing.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Is Canada suffering from the Outsourcing?

Yes. My company now ships raw materials from Michigan to Mexico, processes them, and ships them back to Toyota in Cambridge, Ontario. Before, it was shipped from Michigan to Bramalea, Ontario and then on to Cambridge. What took several hours in shipment now takes over a week round trip. We keep a line of truck going across the US for this. Goes to show how little Mexican labor is being paid vs shipping across the US and back via truck.

Oh, and I have heard that there is a big push to get low paid Mexican truck drivers into the system to save on the labor of driving the trucks. Don't know the legals of that yet but I'm sure that it's coming one way or another. Outsourcing to Mexico to deliver our outsrouced goods across country at low wage labor. Just dandy! :roll:
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Is Canada suffering from the Outsourcing?

Yes. My company now ships raw materials from Michigan to Mexico, processes them, and ships them back to Toyota in Cambridge, Ontario. Before, it was shipped from Michigan to Bramalea, Ontario and then on to Cambridge. What took several hours in shipment now takes over a week round trip. We keep a line of truck going across the US for this. Goes to show how little Mexican labor is being paid vs shipping across the US and back via truck.

Oh, and I have heard that there is a big push to get low paid Mexican truck drivers into the system to save on the labor of driving the trucks. Don't know the legals of that yet but I'm sure that it's coming one way or another. Outsourcing to Mexico to deliver our outsrouced goods across country at low wage labor. Just dandy! :roll:

I have friends that drive trucks and they have mentioned the push to get Mexican drivers in the U.S. They drive for $3 hr so it's just another push by the Corporate Whores.


 

6000SUX

Golden Member
May 8, 2005
1,504
0
0
It does not make economic sense to put most Americans out of work while businessmen grow rich and fat. Our country was founded based on notions of equality. In the extreme case of an entirely "virtual" corporation, the CEO may be a single American and make a mint, while thousands of workers in other countries perform the labor. The government is able to tax the profits (at a lower rate), but the thing that's missing is the sharing in the profits by the American people.

Call it protectionism or whatever you want. The Indian government is guilty of protectionism as well. They protect the interests of their citizens, as we should protect the interests of ours.

In addition, it is not the duty of the American people to upgrade the standard of living of people in other countries at their own expense.

Outsourcing may make financial sense in some cases, but that is often due to shortsighted thinking and by tax breaks from the government (which should be abolished). Many companies tried to offshore much of all of their in-house development, with a resulting backlash due to poor-quality production by the outsourcing partners.

"We" do not succeed if corporations become richer but fewer people can find work. You may be more successful if you are one of the antisocial businessmen doing the offshoring, but you are not the American people.
 

6000SUX

Golden Member
May 8, 2005
1,504
0
0
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
wait... how did you manage to outsource haircuts?

Perhaps he puts his head in cold storage, ships it out, and waits for it to return. In the meantime his body idly types posts on discussion boards.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Wow, did you miss the boat on this one.
First off you are confusing specialization with outsourcing.
It is impossible for one person to learn to build everything they need. So we specialize in a particular area.
You are also completey ignorant of markets when comparing the idea of buying items from diffferent states, with the same general wealth and trade rules and nations with vastly different political and economic situations..
Therefore, nations are different.
In general when you buy, say, a pair of shoes made in another state, the money goes to pay a worker in your nation.
Why is this important? Because you neglect to mention where your money comes from to buy the shoes.
It comes from that shoebuilder buying the product you make (maybe not directly, he may buy another product and that person buys from you)
This works in nations because we play by the same rules and are of a roughly equal economic level and political level.
What happens when you buy your shoes from China?
China artificially holds down the value of their currency (the most important part of Capitalism is Capital).
And China has severe import restrictions on what you produce.
So the money that goes to China leaves the American currency nation and goes to China.
Eventually a few things will happen.
One, much of American wealth will be in China.
Two, and most importantly the people who buy your product lose their jobs and can't afford to buy your product. Lowering your income.
Three, people who livin in dictatorships cannot choose to protect their lives with environment legislation, and other choices free people make, forver unbalancing the fairness of trade with that country. This creates an unbalanced system that ensures America will never be able to compete.
Etc, etc.
You have also confused Efficiency with Cheapness.
China is NOT an efficient manufacturing country. The US is one of the most efficient manufacturing countries in the world.
In China human life and wages are so Cheap that factories there are labor intensive. It takes far more workers to produce a product in China. The reason manufacturing goes there is that is cheaper to use manpower than efficient production machines. This is almost unprecedented in the world since the industrial age began. Efficient mechanized factories being replaced with cheap manual labor. It's a huge step BACKWARD in efficiency.