OutAgile the Agilists (software dev processes)

Andy T

Senior member
Jul 24, 2008
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I strongly dislike Agile - to put it mildly - as a development/PM process. However, the new place I am at the scrummaster a few devs and the manager are strong believers in it.
In a somewhat indirect way the manager "suggested" I participate more in their games (retrospective, etc)...It seems that playing the game is in my interest. What strategies/tactics can I use to "outagile" the agilists? Any other suggestions from those that don't belong in the agile cult?
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,258
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It sounds like you are being paid to work within the Agile framework. It also sounds like your manager has noted that you aren't working within that framework.

Options:
Find another job before you get fired.
Find another job after you get fired.
Perform the work you are being paid to perform in the manner dictated by your employer.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
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tell your manager to stick those morning standups right up his ass. helps if you do this while maintaining your stance of dominance.


seriously though, it seems like such a question should have been asked during the interview phase, by either the interviewer or the interviewee...
 

Andy T

Senior member
Jul 24, 2008
215
1
81
tell your manager to stick those morning standups right up his ass. helps if you do this while maintaining your stance of dominance.


seriously though, it seems like such a question should have been asked during the interview phase, by either the interviewer or the interviewee...

Agile means very different things for almost everyone. Because there are a large number of teams, the way "agile" is done by the interviewer's team was different than it is done now, by a brand new team.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
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Agile means very different things for almost everyone. Because there are a large number of teams, the way "agile" is done by the interviewer's team was different than it is done now, by a brand new team.

so what you're saying is, you knew you were heading into an Agile shop even though

I strongly dislike Agile - to put it mildly
 
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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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so what you're saying is, you knew you were heading into an Agile shop even though

OP dislikes frameworks shown to work better than traditional waterfall development. Some folks like using inferior methods I suppose.
 
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lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
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Not familiar, but quick scan of wikipedia says I'd like agile development. That's pretty much how I do everything. Develop early, and iterate as flaws/benefits become more apparent.
 

kranky

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
21,019
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With a PM hat on, I dislike Agile. With a dev hat on, it's great.

Dev: I'm working hard and I can demo new software every two weeks!
PM: Yes, but you aren't finished.
Dev: Look, it's two weeks later and here's more new software! It has a menu and everything!
PM: Yes, but you're still not finished. When will you be finished?
Dev: When the customer says it does everything they want. Agile is all about customer satisfaction.
PM: What will that cost?
Dev: Who knows? Just leave me alone so I can write code.
PM: But the customer already submitted the requirements. When the software does all of that, we are done.
Dev: No, we don't know if they might want something else instead.
PM: It doesn't work that way. The work can't be open-ended with no cost boundaries.
Dev: Look, it's two weeks later and now the menu is in color!
 
Nov 8, 2012
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Agile only works for small scale.... For anything of significant size waterfall is the only option.

I have a love/hate relationship. I like some parts of it - and I hate some parts of it. For one, daily stand-ups are fucking stupid and childish. "Dur hur, I'm doing this. Which is exactly what I was doing yesterday and the day before". If it makes you feel better making sure that everyone has something to work on then fine - do a standup every monday/thursday or some shit... but every day is overkill.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
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Sometimes, you need to be a good “sales person” to do well at agile. Basically, you will do better if you are able to convince your teammates that your work is worth slightly more sprint points than the actual effort during sprint planning. This buys you two things:

1) It gives you some leeway in meeting your sprint commitments if you run into trouble and have unexpected issues.

2) It makes you look like a hero if you consistently meet all of your sprint commitments AND you get a few tasks from the backlog done.

Just don’t get greedy. If you consistently get your work done early, your coworkers will notice and start lowballing your task estimates (or just give you more of them) when it comes time to vote.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
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Agile only works for small scale.... For anything of significant size waterfall is the only option.

I have a love/hate relationship. I like some parts of it - and I hate some parts of it. For one, daily stand-ups are fucking stupid and childish. "Dur hur, I'm doing this. Which is exactly what I was doing yesterday and the day before". If it makes you feel better making sure that everyone has something to work on then fine - do a standup every monday/thursday or some shit... but every day is overkill.

The daily standups do come in handy if you’re blocked on something and need help, though. Without the daily reminders, your manager or team lead can blissfully ignore a problem for a few days, putting the whole sprint at risk.
 
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Nov 8, 2012
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The daily standups do come in handy if you’re blocked on something and need help, though. Without the daily reminders, your manager or team lead can blissfully ignore a problem for a few days, putting the whole sprint at risk.

Meh, whenever we have significant roadblocks I just CYA - We have a weekly status call and have a "Risks / Issues" section where we list any open issues or key design decisions. If anyone asks I can always point to those status reports and say "I told you so".

EDIT: I work in business related stuff as far as projects, so I have no idea if you IT folks know what CYA is...
 
Feb 25, 2011
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Do agile. Mostly people hate it because of the meetings. Also the cult lingo, but that's life as a product. If you don't like it become a consultant and decided your own pm system.

So when your daily stand-ups inevitably become engineering meetings, point out that you're in the weeds and should work on your tasks.

You're being given a honey-do list by your pm. Do it and a couple backlog items, surf the web a little, snipe that thing on eBay, and collect your check.
 

urvile

Golden Member
Aug 3, 2017
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Demand they switch to CMMI or Waterfall or whatever. All processes have their niches. CMMI is actually fairly well rounded. So point that out. Scrum works well too depending on the type of project. Once you have sorted out the methodology see if you can introduce some lean as well. Good luck!

Just to add it is better to be a team player than not.
 

urvile

Golden Member
Aug 3, 2017
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With a PM hat on, I dislike Agile. With a dev hat on, it's great.

Dev: I'm working hard and I can demo new software every two weeks!
PM: Yes, but you aren't finished.
Dev: Look, it's two weeks later and here's more new software! It has a menu and everything!
PM: Yes, but you're still not finished. When will you be finished?
Dev: When the customer says it does everything they want. Agile is all about customer satisfaction.
PM: What will that cost?
Dev: Who knows? Just leave me alone so I can write code.
PM: But the customer already submitted the requirements. When the software does all of that, we are done.
Dev: No, we don't know if they might want something else instead.
PM: It doesn't work that way. The work can't be open-ended with no cost boundaries.
Dev: Look, it's two weeks later and now the menu is in color!

They are doing it wrong. Once the cash runs out the user stories go onto the backlog until the client hands over more cash. Which is the point of sprint reviews and collaborating closely with the client. So they understand that they can have this feature or that feature but unless they produce more cash they cannot have everything.

It comes down to estimating the user stories as well. Agile methodologies like scrum are project management methodologies but you have to know what you are doing and it's really only suited for projects that have a UI. In particular web development. At least in my opinion. :)

A place I worked at ditched waterfall at the organizational level. For scrum one of the reasons they did that was to cut out process that costs to much money. So they would be more competitive when bidding for work. Is that a good thing? Maybe, maybe not. :)
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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Do agile. Mostly people hate it because of the meetings.

Waterfall typically requires more meetings total and many fairly worthless ones like all the phase gate reviews. At least with Agile there's one throat to choke if the User Stories don't produce the functionality to meet the business need (the product owner) instead of a dispersed groups of disinterested 'stakeholders' contributing crappy business 'requirements' that don't holistically work together and no one has overall accountability for.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
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Meh, whenever we have significant roadblocks I just CYA - We have a weekly status call and have a "Risks / Issues" section where we list any open issues or key design decisions. If anyone asks I can always point to those status reports and say "I told you so".

EDIT: I work in business related stuff as far as projects, so I have no idea if you IT folks know what CYA is...

Dude... in IT, CYA is one of the primary job requirements :)
 

clamum

Lifer
Feb 13, 2003
26,252
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The daily standups do come in handy if you’re blocked on something and need help, though. Without the daily reminders, your manager or team lead can blissfully ignore a problem for a few days, putting the whole sprint at risk.
If I'm blocked on something, I tell my co-worker, manager, or the person whom I think can help. I don't wait around until a meeting to let it be known. But every place is different; I work with a very small group of developers so I guess it's more "informal" than other places.

We got a new CIO and IT Director recently and it seems like there will be some changes. We've already been assigned to daily "scrum" meetings that are 30 minutes to an hour long and a completely useless waste of time. They're nothing like what a "scrum" meeting is supposed to be. Ugh, the company is obsessed with managers and meetings IMO.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
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If I'm blocked on something, I tell my co-worker, manager, or the person whom I think can help. I don't wait around until a meeting to let it be known. But every place is different; I work with a very small group of developers so I guess it's more "informal" than other places.

We got a new CIO and IT Director recently and it seems like there will be some changes. We've already been assigned to daily "scrum" meetings that are 30 minutes to an hour long and a completely useless waste of time. They're nothing like what a "scrum" meeting is supposed to be. Ugh, the company is obsessed with managers and meetings IMO.

Yeah, I'll try to ask a co-worker or manager for help first if I have a blocker. If it's still a blocker by the time the status meeting comes up, I make sure to mention it to the entire team. You want to make sure that nobody is "surprised" near the tail-end of the scrum that something didn't get something completed. Again, one of the primary points in sprint planning is to CYA. Don't let yourself get used as the excuse as to why a sprint failed!
 
Feb 25, 2011
16,990
1,620
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Waterfall typically requires more meetings total and many fairly worthless ones like all the phase gate reviews. At least with Agile there's one throat to choke if the User Stories don't produce the functionality to meet the business need (the product owner) instead of a dispersed groups of disinterested 'stakeholders' contributing crappy business 'requirements' that don't holistically work together and no one has overall accountability for.
Nobody has done honest-to-goodness, pure waterfall since the 70s. Agile is just a formalization of what people were 80%-doing anyway, with a bunch of marketing buzzwords added so consultants can bring home some bacon.

Like you, apparently.

And there is never only one throat to choke. Nobody with that much input/control is dumb enough to be solely responsible for failure unless they have a golden parachute.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
With a PM hat on, I dislike Agile. With a dev hat on, it's great.

Dev: I'm working hard and I can demo new software every two weeks!
PM: Yes, but you aren't finished.
Dev: Look, it's two weeks later and here's more new software! It has a menu and everything!
PM: Yes, but you're still not finished. When will you be finished?
Dev: When the customer says it does everything they want. Agile is all about customer satisfaction.
PM: What will that cost?
Dev: Who knows? Just leave me alone so I can write code.
PM: But the customer already submitted the requirements. When the software does all of that, we are done.
Dev: No, we don't know if they might want something else instead.
PM: It doesn't work that way. The work can't be open-ended with no cost boundaries.
Dev: Look, it's two weeks later and now the menu is in color!


Hahaha being pulled into the agile dev cycle. Though I am not a dev. This is how it always was. Every 2 weeks we got together to look at new and exciting menus. Meanwhile, 2 years later the underlying backend is a complete mess.
 

kranky

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
21,019
156
106
They are doing it wrong. Once the cash runs out the user stories go onto the backlog until the client hands over more cash. Which is the point of sprint reviews and collaborating closely with the client. So they understand that they can have this feature or that feature but unless they produce more cash they cannot have everything.

It comes down to estimating the user stories as well. Agile methodologies like scrum are project management methodologies but you have to know what you are doing and it's really only suited for projects that have a UI. In particular web development. At least in my opinion. :)

A place I worked at ditched waterfall at the organizational level. For scrum one of the reasons they did that was to cut out process that costs to much money. So they would be more competitive when bidding for work. Is that a good thing? Maybe, maybe not. :)

We bid a fixed cost to perform a defined set of requirements. There is an occasional need to clarify a requirement but in general from Day 1 the scope of work is known, what we're being paid is known. You can dev in Agile or Waterfall, but either way it's not a "let's figure it out as we go" situation. There is no opportunity to work with the customer to horse-trade potential additional features by removing requirements. The amount of BS required to modify the requirements just doesn't allow it.

So with a PM hat on, my problem is that no one should ever say "I don't know what it will take to finish and I don't know what it will cost". You bid a cost against a set of requirements that doesn't change. When I worked in a waterfall method, people could answer those questions. I don't understand why Agile creates a dense fog around what the remaining work is. It's the same scope and requirements today as it was before.

Still with the PM hat on, another problem with Agile is it gives people with a certain mindset too much opportunity to avoid accountability. Everyone else has to commit to a timeframe and budget, and Agile isn't a golden ticket to get out of that. I've seen stuff like this:
Sprint plan: Item A is 8 points and will finish in 6 sprints.
End of sprint 1: Item A is 8 points and 3 are complete.
...
End of sprint 4: Item A is 15 points and 7 are complete.
...
End of sprint 6: Item A is 22 points and 12 are complete.

Nope, you don't get to move the goalposts. Item A hasn't changed from Day 1. You were supposed to finish in 6 sprints. You don't get to say "I was only planned for 8 points and I got 12 points done! Yay!" NO. You got half the work done that you said you would since Item A is only half done.

That said, I think Agile is an excellent fit for software being developed for INTERNAL use, where everyone can be flexible and figure out as they go what's the most important things to be done.
 

Andy T

Senior member
Jul 24, 2008
215
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81
As others have pointed out, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, my "knee jerkish" post is also a result of the scum master proclaiming to be an "agile expert" and knowing one of the founders personally. I feel that there is too much theater and bull shit. Fundamentally, I think, it's about getting it done.
Also, most companies I worked at, even the current one, you can't use "pure agile" because of historical/cultural/practical reasons.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
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My suggestion:

Do as you're told, honestly try to make it work, and if there are issues with the approach then bring them up in the meetings to see if the team's processes can evolve to improve them. Do that in a non-critical way rather than attacking the people who set up the process. If someone gets defensive (which is natural) then try to be more clear that you're just suggesting things that might make the process better.

That could work if everyone is an adult.
 
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kranky

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Most of the pushback I have seen is due to the insistence on the part of the "experts" that the "manifesto" must be slavishly obeyed. There has never been a methodology devised yet which can't be tailored to specific needs and systems. Or shouldn't be.

When 3 of the 4 devs on a scrum team are out for a week attending training, the one remaining dev does not need to attend a daily stand-up with a scrum master. Just use common sense, people.

But to address the OP's question, I suggest just going along with it. If the powers that be believe that Agile is good, it won't be in your best interest to appear like you're resisting.