Our SIGNATURE on important documents - Possibility of FRAUD ?

[vulcanman]

Yesterday I was at a very important meeting where I was required to sign on several documents. As I was burning the next few minutes signing off on all those decisions, I realized how ancient and risky that ritual is ...

I am talking about our trust that its impossible to counterfeit someones signature. In todays age where its extremely difficult to detect counterfeit currency (lot more complicated thing to duplicate than a signature) ... how can we put so much trust on a handwritten signature ?

 

[Scouzer]

Yep.. I botch my credit card signature all the time and no one has ever challenged me. lol, I am actually terrible at my own signature.

 

[edro]

Originally posted by: Scouzer
Yep.. I botch my credit card signature all the time and no one has ever challenged me. lol, I am actually terrible at my own signature.

I actually sign your name?
I just write random words like "penguin" or scribble on the line until it is filled with ink.

 

[E equals MC2]

I purposely draw a star right in front of the cashier. Do you think these $7/hr ppl give a shit?

I've also done:
*Just one slash
*Just scribble the shit out of the field
*Michael Jackson

etc...

 

[krunchykrome]

These days, a signature is less of a security measure, and more of a foundation to business.

 

[T9D]

I copy/paste my signature on important documents some times. No one ever notices or cares.

Anyway I think where signatures come in handy is when you are disputing something, or even in criminal matters. If someone else signed it pretending to be you, you can just have it analyzed and be off the hook for the charges/crime. So basically they may get away with it now but once you notice some funny charge you can contest it. And it also lets people not be able to lie and say they didn't agree to that when they did actually sign it.

 

[BassBomb]

In my business (nuclear) you have to sign, stamp, date, possibly apply engineering seal if you have one to quality documents

 

[lokiju]

Originally posted by: edro

Originally posted by: Scouzer
Yep.. I botch my credit card signature all the time and no one has ever challenged me. lol, I am actually terrible at my own signature.

I actually sign your name?
I just write random words like "penguin" or scribble on the line until it is filled with ink.

I do things like this a lot also.


I basically scribble on it.

One time when I tried to take out a few grand from my bank account they wanted to compare signatures and were giving me a hard time about it because they didn't match up.

I signed my signature like 5 times in a row and they all looked different.

 

[vulcanman]

Originally posted by: lokiju

I signed my signature like 5 times in a row and they all looked different.

Precisely the point I am trying to make - then what good is a signature as a means to verify identity ?

My Sams Club has a photo ID ... why do we not demand the same of our bank that keeps our life savings (what is left of it anyway) ? Not that I am suggesting its difficult to counterfeit a Sams Club card ... but you get the pt.

 

[ViviTheMage]

Originally posted by: E equals MC2
I purposely draw a star right in front of the cashier. Do you think these $7/hr ppl give a shit?

I've also done:
*Just one slash
*Just scribble the shit out of the field
*Michael Jackson

etc...

yes yes, we know how cool it is to not sign our names....

 

[Oyeve]

I use xxx. Really, xxx, never got challenged, and if I ever do I will just say I cant read or write.

 

[funkymatt]

i tried the signing other people's name... mickey mouse etc. my credit union called me a couple days later and asked that i stop. it was pretty awesome, i dont think i will switch banks anytime soon.

 

[Injury]

I spill blood on it so they have my DNA signature. Can't fake that.

 

[krunchykrome]

Originally posted by: Injury
I spill blood on it so they have my DNA signature. Can't fake that.

Yea? Well I carry around a 3-d double helix model in my pocket.

 

[vulcanman]

Its amazing that its been programmed into us to put this much weight on a signature. I wonder when we will have biometric means to authenticate people. Theoretically, if Uncle Sam can track your movements by your biometric trail .. so can he with all those signatures on credit card receipts ... making that concern kinda baseless.

 

[Fenixgoon]

shit, i can't consistently write my own signature.

 

[xanis]

My signature looks different almost every time I sign something. No one really notices or cares.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
shit, i can't consistently write my own signature.

You are not suppose too. One of the ways we detect fake signatures is they are too much alike. (putting a sheet of paper overtop of the signature and copying it). The best way to is to copy certain traits of the individual rather than the signature overall.

 

[vulcanman]

Originally posted by: RichardE
One of the ways we detect fake signatures is they are too much alike.

Care to quantify that ?

Originally posted by: RichardE
The best way to is to copy certain traits of the individual rather than the signature overall.

Again, care to quantify that ?

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

Originally posted by: vulcanman

Originally posted by: RichardE
One of the ways we detect fake signatures is they are too much alike.

Care to quantify that ?

Originally posted by: RichardE
The best way to is to copy certain traits of the individual rather than the signature overall.

Again, care to quantify that ?

I think he means things that the person always does in their signature. For example, when my mom signs something she always prints the first letter of our last name and writes the rest in cursive.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: vulcanman
Yesterday I was at a very important meeting where I was required to sign on several documents. As I was burning the next few minutes signing off on all those decisions, I realized how ancient and risky that ritual is ...

I am talking about our trust that its impossible to counterfeit someones signature. In todays age where its extremely difficult to detect counterfeit currency (lot more complicated thing to duplicate than a signature) ... how can we put so much trust on a handwritten signature ?

True handwriting is a pretty variable thing unique to each individual. While someone can study one's signature and duplicate some of the obvious and expert can identify where the wrong pressure was used and the like.

Regardless usually a simple signature doesn't decide anything if contested.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: vulcanman

Originally posted by: RichardE
One of the ways we detect fake signatures is they are too much alike.

Care to quantify that ?

Originally posted by: RichardE
The best way to is to copy certain traits of the individual rather than the signature overall.

Again, care to quantify that ?

Well, take for example some random signature off google images.

http://www.lspace.org/ftp/imag...c/terrys-signature.jpg

Now, That is a very elaborate signature in that Terry (who I assume it belongs too) will never be able to repeat it *exactly* that way.

Now if someone comes with a document that has Terrys signature and his "written" (not printed, or stamped) signature is exactly the same it can be safe to assume that someone copied his signature onto another paper and used that to make this signature. Since you will never be able to recreate your signature exactly alike (try it if you want, not slowly, but write it like you usually do, if you "try" to copy it you are repeating the patterns of forgers.).

Now, for comparisons sakes with other signatures, we look at the loops, or how often his flow is broken, the way specific loops are or dashes that are common among many of Terrys signatures. Analyzing it "perfectly" requires many copies of someones signature. So if I have say 10 or 12 copies of something you signed, I could find which traits you use in your signature and repeat them well enough to forge your signature.


*edit* A note or though. You are right in that signatures are outdated as means of an expressions of consent. Anything having to due with forgery and detecting it will always happen after the fact. (After your bank accounts empty, after the sell order, after the shipping order ect). On the same path of though the *science* behind forging someones signature will always be the cause for the harm done (Looking at a dozen examples of your signature and learning how to forge it properly enough that it will evade detection as a forgery until I am long gone).

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: RichardE

http://www.lspace.org/ftp/imag...c/terrys-signature.jpg

Now, That is a very elaborate signature in that Terry (who I assume it belongs too) will never be able to repeat it *exactly* that way.

Now if someone comes with a document that has Terrys signature and his "written" (not printed, or stamped) signature is exactly the same it can be safe to assume that someone copied his signature onto another paper and used that to make this signature. Since you will never be able to recreate your signature exactly alike (try it if you want, not slowly, but write it like you usually do, if you "try" to copy it you are repeating the patterns of forgers.).

Now, for comparisons sakes with other signatures, we look at the loops, or how often his flow is broken, the way specific loops are or dashes that are common among many of Terrys signatures. Analyzing it "perfectly" requires many copies of someones signature. So if I have say 10 or 12 copies of something you signed, I could find which traits you use in your signature and repeat them well enough to forge your signature.


*edit* A note or though. You are right in that signatures are outdated as means of an expressions of consent. Anything having to due with forgery and detecting it will always happen after the fact. (After your bank accounts empty, after the sell order, after the shipping order ect). On the same path of though the *science* behind forging someones signature will always be the cause for the harm done (Looking at a dozen examples of your signature and learning how to forge it properly enough that it will evade detection as a forgery until I am long gone).

I am calling shens to your sleuthing, as I have known MANY people with signatures just like Terry's and each is almost a carbon copy of the one before it. Especially where stamped signatures are not accepted in large transactions...we'd have signing 'parties' where we all sat down and went through a stack of 10,000 to 50,000 documents usually over several days/weeks. No matter how elaborate it is your signature becomes pretty much a standard.

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: Scouzer
Yep.. I botch my credit card signature all the time and no one has ever challenged me. lol, I am actually terrible at my own signature.

Because you have never filed a complaint with your CC company claiming you didn't sign it.