Our pal Putin. Whats up with him? Has he gone poison happy?

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,561
4
0
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article2029288.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2481096,00.html
http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1780312006
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article2029288.ece

Former Russian PM Gaidar poisoned, say his doctors
By Andrew Osborn in Moscow and Cahal Milmo

Strong evidence emerged yesterday that the former Russian prime minister, Yegor Gaidar, a leading liberal and Kremlin critic, may have been poisoned just a day after the former KGB spy Alexander Litvinenko died in London.

Mr Gaidar became seriously ill while on business in Dublin last week. The 50 year-old apparently fell ill with violent vomiting after consuming a fruit salad and a cup of tea at an academic conference and was taken to a Dublin hospital.

The Irish government said last night that it was investigating the incident amid calls for radiation tests to be carried out at the locations visited by the former premier. The life of Mr Gaidar, a prominent economist, was said to have hung by a thread for a while but he is now reported to be recovering in a hospital at an undisclosed location in Moscow. His daughter, Maria, said that her father had lost half his body weight but that his life was now out of danger. Though definitive confirmation was not expected until today, one of Mr Gaidar's aides said yesterday that doctors strongly suspected that he had been poisoned.



I guess Russias brief fling with Democracy and Freedom from paranoid dictators is over.
Hail Putin. Chalk this one up as almost 400 million people fallen out of freedom on Bushes watch.

 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
Hail Putin. Chalk this one up as almost 400 million people fallen out of freedom on Bushes watch.

I dont think we want to force a regime change in Russia anytime soon, if people think that the invasion of Iraq is costly...... never fight a land war in Asia. We should have taken them out right after WW2 when we had the chance, I am sure that the Germans of that generation would have gladly aided the US in destroying Stalin's Soviet Union
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,577
29,193
146
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Wasn't there a guy running for president of some former Soviet satellite state last year that was poisoned too? He lived IIRC.

Note to self: Stay out of Russian politics.

Edit: Yushchenko from Ukraine


Yushenko or something like that. President of Ukraine, which is where Chechnya is located. Big surprise...

yeah, My GF is Latvian. not a Putin fan. I hear about this dirtbag on a regular basis. Seriously though, he's bringing the USSR back, and quick.

EDIT: edited b/c you posted your link while i responded. good work!
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Wasn't there a guy running for president of some former Soviet satellite state last year that was poisoned too? He lived IIRC.

Note to self: Stay out of Russian politics.

Edit: Yushchenko from Ukraine


Yushenko or something like that. President of Ukraine, which is where Chechnya is located. Big surprise...

yeah, My GF is Latvian. not a Putin fan. I hear about this dirtbag on a regular basis. Seriously though, he's bringing the USSR back, and quick.

EDIT: edited b/c you posted your link while i responded. good work!

At least he will probably not bother with Communism this go around, probably just a good old fashioned iron fist dictatorship with a bit more economic freedoms (Russian mob does better under capitalism, no?)
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
This started with the theft of that oil tycoons money.. can't remember the name
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,561
4
0
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Hail Putin. Chalk this one up as almost 400 million people fallen out of freedom on Bushes watch.

I dont think we want to force a regime change in Russia anytime soon, if people think that the invasion of Iraq is costly...... never fight a land war in Asia. We should have taken them out right after WW2 when we had the chance, I am sure that the Germans of that generation would have gladly aided the US in destroying Stalin's Soviet Union

One of these days I am going to start a thread about who would have won, the US/Great Britain alliance versus the Soviet Union alliance if they had fought each other in Europe as soon as Germany surrendered.
btw I think the odds were in the Soviet Unions favor.
Who knows, maybe next week.

 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Putin is taking Russia the wrong direction. Luckily he'll be stepping down soon.
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
0
We had the bomb, they didn't until they studied captured Japanese and German projects.

So we would have won.. Although I do not think it would have been wise to attack Russia after wwII.

Something we need to learn in the US is to take regime change of the table except for extreme circumstances.
Many of the issues we have in geo politics can be traced to meddling that was not needed.
Why use military force covert or otherwise when economic and political pressure works much better?
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,561
4
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
Putin is taking Russia the wrong direction. Luckily he'll be stepping down soon.
BBBWWWAAAAAHHHHH!
Now THAT'S funny!

 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,577
29,193
146
Originally posted by: Passions
When is Putin's term up?

Russia needs to elect a new president.


Putin doesn't have a term. I believe he's inacted legislation (or whatever they call it over there) to keep himself in power indefinately. Plus, his cronyism makes Bush jealous.

As to the we shoudl have invaded Russia when we had the chance after WWII...uh; may I please have a sample of what you were smoking?
There never was a chance. We would have been crushed like everyone else that had been crushed making such attempts. Neither army was in any condition to go for something like that, btu Russia still had teh upper hand b/c of territorial strategy.

I suppose we could have threatened with nuclear attack; but I doubt Truman would have done that. The only reason it was allowed to happen in Japan was b/c the Warlords had spiraled out of control, defying the entreaties of the Emperor.
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
Originally posted by: Agent11
We had the bomb, they didn't until they studied captured Japanese and German projects.

So we would have won.. Although I do not think it would have been wise to attack Russia after wwII.

Something we need to learn in the US is to take regime change of the table except for extreme circumstances.
Many of the issues we have in geo politics can be traced to meddling that was not needed.
Why use military force covert or otherwise when economic and political pressure works much better?

At the end of WWII, we had bomb yes, however we had just used the only two. Plus attacking Russia would have been an incredibly huge mistake, with how stretched our forces were. If we had tried that stunt then the rest of Europe would be speaking Russian, well, the handful of survivors.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Hail Putin. Chalk this one up as almost 400 million people fallen out of freedom on Bushes watch.

I dont think we want to force a regime change in Russia anytime soon, if people think that the invasion of Iraq is costly...... never fight a land war in Asia. We should have taken them out right after WW2 when we had the chance, I am sure that the Germans of that generation would have gladly aided the US in destroying Stalin's Soviet Union

One of these days I am going to start a thread about who would have won, the US/Great Britain alliance versus the Soviet Union alliance if they had fought each other in Europe as soon as Germany surrendered.
btw I think the odds were in the Soviet Unions favor.
Who knows, maybe next week.

I dont think so, we had the bomb, we had a better economy, we had more man power to throw at the situation.
Not to mention the Soviets werent much different from the Nazi's in eastern europe so they would have partisans in their backyard causing trouble.


 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: dahunan
This started with the theft of that oil tycoons money.. can't remember the name

Boris Yushenko (sp?), IIRC

They (Russian Government) are trying to blame him for the poisoning. They say he did it to make them look bad.

Fern
 

fitzov

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2004
2,477
0
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
This started with the theft of that oil tycoons money.. can't remember the name

That billionaire robber baron that didn't pay his taxes.
 

gevorg

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2004
5,075
1
0
Its too naive to believe that one guy (Putin) controls, or the center, of the WHOLE Russia. Other then the government, there are also:

Mafia - the biggest in the whole world, has connections in EVERY government,
High level/secret military agencies that don't have to report to Putin;
Oligarchs - multi-billionaires who stole massive assets during Soviet collapse; legal on paper, bloody on hands
Other - ??

All of these are connected between each other, but some of them are enemies to each other, inside and outside of Russia. Its quite possible for them to disagree/hate Putin, and the best weapon against a president is bad PR.
 

Tangerines

Senior member
Oct 20, 2005
304
0
0
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: Passions
When is Putin's term up?

Russia needs to elect a new president.


Putin doesn't have a term. I believe he's inacted legislation (or whatever they call it over there) to keep himself in power indefinately. Plus, his cronyism makes Bush jealous.

As to the we shoudl have invaded Russia when we had the chance after WWII...uh; may I please have a sample of what you were smoking?
There never was a chance. We would have been crushed like everyone else that had been crushed making such attempts. Neither army was in any condition to go for something like that, btu Russia still had teh upper hand b/c of territorial strategy.

I suppose we could have threatened with nuclear attack; but I doubt Truman would have done that. The only reason it was allowed to happen in Japan was b/c the Warlords had spiraled out of control, defying the entreaties of the Emperor.

Putin does have a term. He leaves power in 2008. Of course, he may still retain some influence over the next president.
 

Carlis

Senior member
May 19, 2006
237
0
76
Russia is tricky. To attack it after wwII sounds like the worst idea ever. The russians would have swept over the european continent and then it would be western nuclear war against the continent. The actual russia would be hard to penetrate with bombers. Sure they would lose after a while but what a dark scenario. Thank god american presidents tend to sort out the worst suggestions made by the military.
The thing with russia is that it shares very much of western technology but is less developed in other areas and does certainly not share western history. Russia abolished slavery 1871. Before that, most people were owned. 1871-1917 those people were free but the same individuals owned just about everything. And then 1917 came the new super dictatorship of communism.
Russia has never had the opportunity to develop a civil society. The crash of soviet left some very powerful networks like the kgb and little knowledge about politics among regular people. It was pretty obvious that kgb would use its new power.
What russia need now is a free press and putins retirement.
If you think we would be better of having blasted USSR in piece after WWII then you should probably read more.
 

AnyMal

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
15,780
0
76
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Wasn't there a guy running for president of some former Soviet satellite state last year that was poisoned too? He lived IIRC.

Note to self: Stay out of Russian politics.

Edit: Yushchenko from Ukraine


Yushenko or something like that. President of Ukraine, which is where Chechnya is located. Big surprise...

yeah, My GF is Latvian. not a Putin fan. I hear about this dirtbag on a regular basis. Seriously though, he's bringing the USSR back, and quick.

EDIT: edited b/c you posted your link while i responded. good work!

LOL. You probably failed Geography in HS. There's few thousand miles between Ukraine and Chechnya.

Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: Passions
When is Putin's term up?

Russia needs to elect a new president.


Putin doesn't have a term. I believe he's inacted legislation (or whatever they call it over there) to keep himself in power indefinately. Plus, his cronyism makes Bush jealous.

As to the we shoudl have invaded Russia when we had the chance after WWII...uh; may I please have a sample of what you were smoking?
There never was a chance. We would have been crushed like everyone else that had been crushed making such attempts. Neither army was in any condition to go for something like that, btu Russia still had teh upper hand b/c of territorial strategy.

I suppose we could have threatened with nuclear attack; but I doubt Truman would have done that. The only reason it was allowed to happen in Japan was b/c the Warlords had spiraled out of control, defying the entreaties of the Emperor.

Wrong. Putin's term expires in 2008.

Originally posted by: Carlis
Russia is tricky. To attack it after wwII sounds like the worst idea ever. The russians would have swept over the european continent and then it would be western nuclear war against the continent. The actual russia would be hard to penetrate with bombers. Sure they would lose after a while but what a dark scenario. Thank god american presidents tend to sort out the worst suggestions made by the military.
The thing with russia is that it shares very much of western technology but is less developed in other areas and does certainly not share western history. Russia abolished slavery 1871. Before that, most people were owned. 1871-1917 those people were free but the same individuals owned just about everything. And then 1917 came the new super dictatorship of communism.
Russia has never had the opportunity to develop a civil society. The crash of soviet left some very powerful networks like the kgb and little knowledge about politics among regular people. It was pretty obvious that kgb would use its new power.
What russia need now is a free press and putins retirement.
If you think we would be better of having blasted USSR in piece after WWII then you should probably read more.

Correctiion: Russia abolished slavery in 1861.

To your other point; while remaining ~80% agrarian country prior to 1917, their civil society was very well developed. The only reason bolsheviks succeeded is because Russia was knee-deep in WWI issues and was vulnerable from inside, which is why Lenin seized the opportunity. Also remember that bolsheviks did not overthrow Russian monarchy, it was Russian Constitutional Democrats and Progressive Socialists who convinced Nicholas II to cesede and took control in February 1917. New democratic governement was in infancy when Lenin took advantage of its weakness and stabbed Russia in the back.
 

AcidicFury

Golden Member
May 7, 2004
1,508
0
0
Originally posted by: AnyMal
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Wasn't there a guy running for president of some former Soviet satellite state last year that was poisoned too? He lived IIRC.

Note to self: Stay out of Russian politics.

Edit: Yushchenko from Ukraine


Yushenko or something like that. President of Ukraine, which is where Chechnya is located. Big surprise...

yeah, My GF is Latvian. not a Putin fan. I hear about this dirtbag on a regular basis. Seriously though, he's bringing the USSR back, and quick.

EDIT: edited b/c you posted your link while i responded. good work!

LOL. You probably failed Geography in HS. There's few thousand miles between Ukraine and Chechnya.

Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: Passions
When is Putin's term up?

Russia needs to elect a new president.


Putin doesn't have a term. I believe he's inacted legislation (or whatever they call it over there) to keep himself in power indefinately. Plus, his cronyism makes Bush jealous.

As to the we shoudl have invaded Russia when we had the chance after WWII...uh; may I please have a sample of what you were smoking?
There never was a chance. We would have been crushed like everyone else that had been crushed making such attempts. Neither army was in any condition to go for something like that, btu Russia still had teh upper hand b/c of territorial strategy.

I suppose we could have threatened with nuclear attack; but I doubt Truman would have done that. The only reason it was allowed to happen in Japan was b/c the Warlords had spiraled out of control, defying the entreaties of the Emperor.

Wrong. Putin's term expires in 2008.

Originally posted by: Carlis
Russia is tricky. To attack it after wwII sounds like the worst idea ever. The russians would have swept over the european continent and then it would be western nuclear war against the continent. The actual russia would be hard to penetrate with bombers. Sure they would lose after a while but what a dark scenario. Thank god american presidents tend to sort out the worst suggestions made by the military.
The thing with russia is that it shares very much of western technology but is less developed in other areas and does certainly not share western history. Russia abolished slavery 1871. Before that, most people were owned. 1871-1917 those people were free but the same individuals owned just about everything. And then 1917 came the new super dictatorship of communism.
Russia has never had the opportunity to develop a civil society. The crash of soviet left some very powerful networks like the kgb and little knowledge about politics among regular people. It was pretty obvious that kgb would use its new power.
What russia need now is a free press and putins retirement.
If you think we would be better of having blasted USSR in piece after WWII then you should probably read more.

Correctiion: Russia abolished slavery in 1861.

To your other point; while remaining ~80% agrarian country prior to 1917, their civil society was very well developed. The only reason bolsheviks succeeded is because Russia was knee-deep in WWI issues and was vulnerable from inside, which is why Lenin seized the opportunity. Also remember that bolsheviks did not overthrow Russian monarchy, it was Russian Constitutional Democrats and Progressive Socialists who convinced Nicholas II to cesede and took control in February 1917. New democratic governement was in infancy when Lenin took advantage of its weakness and stabbed Russia in the back.


Excellent, at least someone in this thread knows their Russian history and geography. :thumbsup:

What people in the US fail to see is that throughout this all, the Russian people love Putin. Free media be damned, he's giving them an economic growth rate of close to 7% a year (and thats without the WTOs help, imagine what it'll be this year) and is desperately trying to reform programs that pissed people off during the USSR.

He will step down in 2008. Otherwise, there will be huge economic ramifications, which WILL get the Russian people riled up much more so than the current string of poisonings.