OT : Any of you old farts work with ancient network technology?

Mucman

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Oct 10, 1999
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I am reading a book called "When Wizards Stay up Late", and it is about the beginnings of the Internet. I just finished the chapter where the guy rights RFC 1 :). They are using Honywell 516 and 316 and call them IMP, (something Message Proccessors). The machines are called mini computers and are the size of fridges :). The network back-bone are dedicated 50kilobit leased lines :)

Anyways, I am just finding this book fascinating, and it would be really cool if any of you seasoned network guys could share your experiences :D
 

spidey07

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Aug 4, 2000
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10base-5 with vampire taps, yuck.
dumb token ring caus/maus (purely passive electronics, strange stuff). worked via relays - you'd hear them clicking all the time.
Frame-relay - when it first came out. talk about nightmares
 

ScottMac

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Mar 19, 2001
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My first network was a Corvus OmniNet. It was basically meant for hard drive sharing ... the the "Big" Corvus drive (20Meg - tens of thousands of dollars)) had some four-pin Molex connectorson the back (if you bought that option), the PCs had a NIC with a four-pin Molex connectors on the back....you ran some funky cheap cable from one to the other. If you used Apples (IIs, II Plus') you had to partition that part of the drive into 123K (emulated floppy) segments. That was also when Corvus came out with a backup scheme that used VCRs as a backup. It basically converted the data into video snow, that got saved to VHS tape - worked pretty good too.

Then Orchid came out with "PC Net" (3COM Ethernet was hitting the street about that time too). PCLan was 1 megabit over 75ohm coax. Then came ArcNet - a nightmare, because every card was manually addresses with dip switches (up to 255 nodes per NETWORK). The problem was that the people with the network never wrote down what addresses were in-use, so when you added a station, you pulled an address out of {some dark place that smells bad} and tried it. If the address was already in-use, the entire network crashed (it is a token-Bus topology).

Then I went to IBM Broadband class in Boca .... a year later to Token-Ring Class (mostly structured cabling - IBM Style), then 3COM was starting to pick up serious steam, then (a few years later) folks were looking at "LattisNet" - Ethernet over PHONE WIRE...

I still have a friend that gives me crap about telling the customers ("You're really gonna trust your HIGH-SPEED data to PHONE WIRE? Are you Nuts!! Coax is the only media that can support that kind of speed......." (we didn't sell LattisNet till much later).

Meanwhile, we picked up Novell - a red, breadbox-sized box with (up to) 15 AUI connectors on the front, that'd let you put computers up to 50 Meters away from the server. Then Novell ported the software to be able to run on PCs (well, Xts), but you had to buy a version for the specific network type (ArcNet, PCLAN, 3COM, etc). Next (like, version 2, I think) they made it universal - you made some menu choices during install, and it would compile the OS for your selections (over 20-something 5/14" 360K flooppies).

It worked great, until you wanted to change something ( like receive/transmit buffers....then you'd recompile it again).

At the time there was a huge compitition between Novell and 3COM (who used to make server hardware/software based on MS LANMan) - 3com kept saying "We're faster," Novell said They were, and they were more secure and stable (it was according to tests). 3COM kept going for speed, Novell kept going for security and stability....Novell won, 3COM got out of the Server O/S and Server Hardware business.

Then Novell came out with 3.0. To demonstrate the power, they rolled it out on stage with a 386/33 server, loaded with a whopping 256Meg of RAM( I think), then proceeded to Serve 1000 (one thousand) PCs, all doing I/O to the server box. It was amazing. I'd bet that original 3.0 server could still beat the majority of Microsoft server deployed today .... MS Server O/S still sucks.

I still have a copy of MS DOS 1.0, 1.1, 2.0, 2.1 ....6.22 - 'cause, ya never know. I still have an S100 Zenith computer running CP/M 2.2, my original IMSAI 8080 is in some Computer Museum in Boston (donated by the owner/founder of ComputerLand).

The BEST PRINTER EVER CREATED is still a Diablo 630 with a metal Daisy Wheel and film ribbins - it's the classiest output you can generate from a computer. NEC thimble printers were pretty damn decent too. I had one of each, loved 'em both. Try printing 12-part NCR paper on a laser or dot matrix printer....HAH! :D

You can tell you're dealing with an old Token-Ring guy when they can recite the Dip-switch settings from memory (yet today).

There's not an old Ethernet guy out there that hasn't made the emergency run to Radio Shack to get generic 50 ohm coax and some (if need be) twist-on BNC connectors or "T" adapters (There is a specific coax just for thin -and thick- Ethernet). Sometimes ya just gotta do what ya just gotta do....."Get 'em running ... just fix it."

DEC was the BEST engineered equipment PDP, VAX, Pro series ... even the PCs they made (The "Rainbow")...great stuff, and the best keyboard ever produced.

I've had or played with everything from the Intel MDS8080, IMSAI, Cromemco, Dynabyte, Altair, IBM PCs and S/36, Apple (even um, McIntosh I and Lisa), Compaqs (starting with the 286/6Mhz), the portables, Osbourne, KayPro, HP, Commodore (Pet -->Amiga), ....it's been some kind of ride trying to keep up.

I remember trying to sit through some presentations at 3COM and understand the difference between their bridges (layer two), their routers (Layer 3), the BROUTERS (some kind of integrated critters)......goofy times they were.

Is Retix still around? Killer bridges, nice, easy-to-use routers ... I miss 'em. I remember laughing at Hayes and their "stupid 'AT' " command set ... Novation was the modem-to-have for an Apple II. 300 baud was doing pretty good, 1200 (Bell 212) was awesome..Racal Vadic had the high-end corporate modem market, and Gandalf ran large campus data access systems....

You young whipper-snappers don't know how good you have it - It used to be that you had to manually configure every card for address, IRQ, and DMA ...

Online networks were "The Source" and Compuserve ... I used 'em both. The Source was serious research, Compuserve was more personal-use fluffy stuff. I was on the CB Simulator (now called "chat rooms") as Stretcher Fetcher .... parties all over the country and a good time had by all. I met/knew the first two people that met and got married from talking to each other in the CB Simulator (ChrisDOS and Zebra3 - Z3 was from Chicago).

That's it for me this round .... off to Wisconson for a few days....


FWIW

Scott


 

Mucman

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Oct 10, 1999
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Wow, did I just bring back some memories ScottMac? :p.

What do guys think is the oldest running network hardware that is still running :). Is there any place to check out the first IMPs?
 

JackMDS

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Oct 25, 1999
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First Network, so to speak.

A Dumb terminal connected via Tel. line to a PDP mainframe. Sitting by the terminal side, a very noisy line printer, and a Card Punch machine.

First personal computer (i.e. stand alone computer not hooked to mainframe) 30 years ago. PDP8A. 8K memory. Size 6? High 1? Width 2? Deep. Had some type of Network connection can not remember which.

 

Mucman

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JackMDS - What exactly did you do on the machine? What did the network connection provide for you?

What thing I am amazed about in computer history is what the programmers back then were able to squeeze out of such wimpy machines (by todays standards).
 

JackMDS

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It was networked to few smaller dedicated computing units; these units were attached to special Amps. that collected Brain Waves from people during sleep. The setup was done by the original BASIC Compiler (Pre-Gates Basic).
 

kgraeme

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How about Burroughs terminals hardwired to the mainframe. Later upgraded to actual Sperry equipment IIRC. They were actually going out as I was coming in.

I did work a bit with thicknet and vampire taps for thinnet. Pulled lots of thinnet. I remember when 10BaseT was coming out everyone was really freaked out. It added so much wire to the network! Huge debates as to which was more efficient. For quite a while, we pulled thin to terminate to a hub that went twisted pair from there.
 

spidey07

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For quite a while, we pulled thin to terminate to a hub that went twisted pair from there.
And that is where the term "backbone" comes from in a LAN environment. used to be a big thin coax cable that connected many hubs throught a building.
 

kgraeme

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Originally posted by: spidey07
For quite a while, we pulled thin to terminate to a hub that went twisted pair from there.
And that is where the term "backbone" comes from in a LAN environment. used to be a big thin coax cable that connected many hubs throught a building.

Well, the thin tapped off the thick.
 

Mucman

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Originally posted by: JackMDS
It was networked to few smaller dedicated computing units; these units were attached to special Amps. that collected Brain Waves from people during sleep. The setup was done by the original BASIC Compiler (Pre-Gates Basic).

Wow! How long ago was this (I am sorry for calling you an old fart :p). I am having a hard time compredhending that you were able to do this back then! Was OS were you running? Is it pre-unix? When did commands like ifconfig exist? Obviously I am showing my ignorance now (and youth :p)


 

JackMDS

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We are talking 30 years ago (early 70?s). There was no Windows, not even DOS (I mean the MS variant). The current variant of Basic and later DOS1.1 started to appear commercially at the late 70's by Radio Shack and Apple, and established by IBM with the introduction of the PC with DOS 1.1 in 1981.

As much as I can remember, when you started the PDP 8A, it will load a small Machine language boot loader, that will let you read and manage 5.25? floppies (that was the beginning of 5.25? as oppose to the 7?). You could buy from Digital (PDP is a Digital made computer), software that was prepared by their programmers for this specific machine. We actually programmed the thing to do network interaction by using direct commands to the inPorts, and outPorts to get traffic going in and out between the computers.
 

Mucman

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Originally posted by: JackMDS
We are talking 30 years ago (early 70?s). There was no Windows, not even DOS (I mean the MS variant). The current variant of Basic and later DOS1.1 started to appear commercially at the late 70's by Radio Shack and Apple, and established by IBM with the introduction of the PC with DOS 1.1 in 1981.

As much as I can remember, when you started the PDP 8A, it will load a small Machine language boot loader, that will let you read and manage 5.25? floppies (that was the beginning of 5.25? as oppose to the 7?). You could buy from Digital (PDP is a Digital made computer), software that was prepared by their programmers for this specific machine. We actually programmed the thing to do network interaction by using direct commands to the inPorts, and outPorts to get traffic going in and out between the computers.

That is so cool! I would love to hack around on a machine like that for kicks :)

Btw, a chapter in the book I am reading discusses the fault tolerance of an IMP :

The IMP had a countdown register. Every so often the machine would bump the register to its max value (as long as the program is running properly). If the register ever counted down to 0, it would mean that there is an error. This would cause a reboot. The software was loaded via a paper tape! They had a roll of paper tape with the program on it three times so the machine could boot 3 times, after that someone would have to rewind the tape :). It's amazing what these guys thought of considering they were pioneers in the field! No one had done what they had done! That is so amazing! You must look at todays programming languages and laugh, eh? I mean, look how easy it is to create sockets in PERL :)

 

ScottMac

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Many of the old machines (the IMSAI did when I first got it) needed the user to key in the first ~100bytes or so manually (i.e., set 8 switches on or off, set the initial address - 16 more switches), then hit the 'Dump & Increment" switch ... put in the next 8bits, D&I, 8bits, D&I). Those first ~100 bytes were the boot code for the paper tape reader (the RDR: device - serial input), which would read the tape containing the boot code for the floppy (or tape cassette, and later, the harddrive).

Then implementation of ROM boot loaders was a truely good thing.

If you think you get upset NOW when the cleaning lady pulled the computer plug to plug-in the vacuum cleaner.....back then it was a hanging offense.

FWIW

Scott


 

Mucman

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Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: PELarson
You might enjoy Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder. That is if you can locate a copy.

That looks like an awesome book! I will bet putting that on my list :)

ScottMac, that is what I call harcore :), and I thought boot ROM = size 12 shoe in computer :p