Discussion Optane Client product current and future

IntelUser2000 · Oct 31, 2017

Now the two Optane client products are released the picture is becoming a bit clearer.

Current

High performance client/Workstation-
Optane SSD 900P: https://ark.intel.com/products/series/123625/Intel-Optane-SSD-900P-Series
Optane SSD 905P: https://ark.intel.com/products/codename/67236/Mansion-Beach

905P is a minor update that makes it slightly more efficient per performance and increases performance at the top end.

Caching device for Desktops-
Optane Memory: https://ark.intel.com/products/series/99743/Intel-Optane-Memory-Series

Caching device for Laptops-
Optane Memory M10: https://ark.intel.com/products/series/132776/Intel-Optane-Memory-M10-Series
2nd Gen-
Optane Memory M15: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/u...es/189225/intel-optane-memory-m15-series.html

Mid-tier Optane for SSDs-
Optane SSD 800P: https://ark.intel.com/products/series/125310/Intel-Optane-SSD-800P-Series

Hybrid NAND Optane Drive-
Optane Memory H10 with Solid State Storage: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/u...tane-memory-h10-with-solid-state-storage.html

The 900P and 905P are code-named Mansion Beach. The 800P SSD is code-named Brighton Beach. Both Optane Memory and its laptop sibling M10 are code-named Stony Beach. That's in line with older roadmaps. M15 is Carson Beach. The hybrid H10 drive is Teton Glacier.

https://www.myce.com/wp-content/images_posts/2016/06/intel-octane-ssd-roadmap.jpg

-Any Optane device can be used as caching, despite the lower capacity models being exclusively made for it. I do not believe its a supported configuration yet it works with them. Caching takes entirety of the drive.
-Second drive caching and Pentium/Celeron support is possible with latest drivers. NVMe caching still not possible
-Difference exists between RST caching and Optane Memory. The former is more flexible in choosing a device but latter performs better.
-You cannot cache NVMe drives(as of March 24, 2019) with official Optane software, but its a regular NVMe drive and Tomshardware tested it to work with RST's SRT feature.

*Optane Memory M15 and SSD 815P looks to be cancelled*

Future

Possible code-name for the successor to Optane H10 is Wolf Glacier. Successor to Coldstream(P4800X) is Alder Stream.

Technical

The Optane Memory devices, both 1st gen and M10, and the SSD 800P, use B+M M.2 NVMe x2 interface. BGA form factor is also planned. Optane SSD 900P/905P is/will be available in M.2 M-key, HHHL Add-in card, and U.2 form factors.

The puzzling part is while the Optane Memory controller only seems to offer ~150MB/s write bandwidth per channel, 900P offers 300MB/s. The 9xxP series controller has a heatspreader on top of the controller die for heat dissipation. The lower performing client models don't. It's unclear how many channels the 800P controller has. Capacities for the 900P derivative controller under 380GB both use less power and offer less sequential throughput. Perhaps lower clocks + lower channels?

There's a chance starting with Bombay Beach/Carson Beach the per channel bandwidth increases.

The current limitation for capacity seems to be that Intel only produces a 128Gbit(16GB) die. There are multi-die packages with 2, 4, or 8 dies per package. That makes per chip capacity 16, 32GB, 64GB, and 128GB. The M10, 800P, and the 900P/905P drives use multi-die packages to achieve greater capacities.

The M10 and 800P controllers support the low power L1.2 power state, and the active power is lower at the same performance compared to the original Optane Memory. Likely a revised controller and firmware to achieve this.

A bit more

Core i+ branding has been discontinued. 17.2 drivers and later allows Optane Memory software to run on 8th Gen Pentium and Celeron platforms. Previously, only Core i3 and up CPUs were supported.

IntelUser2000 · Oct 31, 2017

New info as of Nov 11, 2017

PCPer is a treasure cove of information for Optane products.

16GB and 32GB 3D XPoint packages side by side (480GB model).

280GB: 14x16GB front / 7x16GB rear - 336GB total

480GB: 7x16GB+7x32GB front / 14x16GB rear - 560GB total

That means 32GB packages are available. 3D XPoint dies are rather large for a 128Gbit(16GB) version so that's going to remain the largest one. 32GB means a multi-die package. The 900P will be available in capacities of 960GB, and 1.5TB in the future.

960GB = Going to guess same configuration as the 480GB, just the packages are twice the capacity. 21x32GB + 7x64GB?

1.5TB = 28x64GB

It's significant because it opens up possibilities for M.2 form factor Optane Memory/SSDs with 128GB in a two chip, or 256GB in four chip. They could even do fancy things with 64GB in a single BGA chip.

New information as of January 10, 2018

Optane SSD 800P: PCIe x2 NVMe device with 58GB and 118GB capacities. Supports a low power idle state, which will reduce idle significantly from the current 1W for Optane Memory. March release date suggests it'll come with 300-series chipset and be used in place of the current Optane Memory.

Optane Mobile M10: Optane Memory targeted at Notebooks.

Updates as of March 3, 2018

Optane SSD 800P introduced, code-named Brighton Beach. Reviews suggest it can be used as Optane Memory, thus as a larger caching drive. L1.2 power support reduces idle power down to 8mW from the 1W of Optane Memory.

800P has 3 active power states in addition to one idle state. Power usage is slightly different for 58GB and 118GB.

May 1, 2018: Optane SSD 905P, likely Mansion Beach Refresh. Slightly better specs, and higher capacities. Updated the first post.

September 21, 2018 Update

Specifications for M10, and the larger 1.5TB AIC/U.2 905P has been released at Intel site. Also M.2 905P information is available. 8 stack packages are now possible. Lower capacity M10 drives have lower performance and lower power use.

March 24, 2019: Latest Optane Memory drivers now support 8th Gen Pentium and Celeron CPUs.

April 10, 2019: Official unveiling of the Optane Memory H10 with Solid State Storage SSD. Along with ARK info.

May 28, 2019 Update

*Cancelled*
Carson Beach is released! Optane Memory M15. It uses PCIe x4 for improved throughput. *Cancelled*

Bier667 · Oct 31, 2017

The only problem so far i have is the price gouging in EU: atm you have to pay 50% more. 600$ as opposed to the MSRP of ~400 :/

https://geizhals.eu/intel-optane-ssd-900p-280gb-ssdped1d280gasx-a1717893.html

Otherwise Mansion Beach (PCM) is the best thing to come along since the Nvidia 8800GTX

cbn · Nov 1, 2017

I do like Optane memory for hard drive cache:

WD 4TB Red 3.5" 7200 rpm HDD vs. 16GB Optane + WD 4TB Red 3.5" 7200 rpm HDD (booting and opening apps timed with a stop watch):

Hard drive:

Boot 1 minute 5 seconds
Office 10 seconds
Blizzard Battle.net 16 seconds
Overwatch 29 seconds

16GB Optane + Hard drive:

Boot 39 seconds
Office 2 to 3 seconds
Blizzard Battle.net 6 to7 seconds
Overwatch 17 to 18 seconds

But with Windows supporting ReadyBoost, I think it would be great to have a usb version as well. (re: even with the higher latency of USB it would still be faster than anything else)

cbn · Nov 13, 2017

IntelUser2000 said:
I think based on the pricing of Mansion Beach, 900P SSDs, it makes sense for 64GB Optane Memory model to have the same pricing as the current 32GB version. It's possible Carson Beach Optane Memory will have 16, 32, and 64GB capacities, though its more likely they'll just have 32GB and 64GB.

If they plan to expand the market for Optane Memory, and the more mainstream oriented Carson Beach SSDs, they need to implement idle power management schemes like DIPM. Depending on the implementation, they can potentially lower the idle power from current 1W to 100mW or less.

How does that 1W idle power consumption compare to the idle power consumption of 4GB of RAM in a Windows "Cloud" or "Stream" notebook?

IntelUser2000 · Nov 13, 2017

Bier667 said:
The only problem so far i have is the price gouging in EU: atm you have to pay 50% more. 600$ as opposed to the MSRP of ~400 :/

I feel sorry for you guys at the EU. VAT taxes are ridiculous.

Overclockers.co.uk seems to have better pricing on them though. I don't know if two weeks have made a difference. It costs 389 Euro there.

cbn said:
How does that 1W idle power consumption compare to the idle power consumption of 4GB of RAM in a Windows "Cloud" or "Stream" notebook?

They are actually very efficient. Even more so the Core series laptops. They use Braswell or more recent Apollo Lake platform. The idle power including the screen on for those devices are about 2W. 1W would mean 50%+ difference in battery life.

They use DDR3L memory which has standby power of less than 100mW.

The premium laptops based on Core chips sometimes use LPDDR3 memory, which cuts the standby power to few single digit mW.

cbn · Nov 15, 2017

IntelUser2000 said:
I think based on the pricing of Mansion Beach, 900P SSDs, it makes sense for 64GB Optane Memory model to have the same pricing as the current 32GB version. It's possible Carson Beach Optane Memory will have 16, 32, and 64GB capacities, though its more likely they'll just have 32GB and 64GB.

If they plan to expand the market for Optane Memory, and the more mainstream oriented Carson Beach SSDs, they need to implement idle power management schemes like DIPM. Depending on the implementation, they can potentially lower the idle power from current 1W to 100mW or less.

In addition to what is written above I do wonder if the H310 chipset would support Optane Memory? If it does that would be very interesting for the budget pre-built desktops with Core i5 x400 processors and 7200 rpm hard drives. (Reason: In this scenario the idle power consumption Optane Memory is not an issue and this type of PC is quite widespread).

In particular, It would be interesting to see how well a 32GB Optane memory on PCIe 3.0 x 4 (Carson Beach) does against a 16GB Optane memory on PCIe 3.0 x 2 (Stony Beach) for accelerating apps.

IntelUser2000 · Nov 16, 2017

Updated with new information regarding possible multi-die packages.

In addition to what is written above I do wonder if the H310 chipset would support Optane Memory?

Right now every single 200-series chipset supports Optane Memory. If they keep it up it would likely continue.

I would like to see 2nd gen Optane Memory to feature idle power management states and ability to cache secondary drives.

IntelUser2000 · Jan 10, 2018

Updated with newest Optane devices. From initial information, they sound like "Carson Beach".

cbn · Jan 10, 2018

IntelUser2000 said:
Updated with newest Optane devices. From initial information, they sound like "Carson Beach".

I don't think the 800p is Carson Beach.

Notice packaging says "SSD" rather than "Memory". (Also only PCIe 3.0 x2, not PCIe 3.0 x4)

https://techreport.com/news/33091/i...-3d-xpoint-speed-to-more-builders-and-devices

But I'll bet Intel Mobile M10 is Carson Beach in BGA form factor.

IntelUser2000 · Jan 10, 2018

cbn said:
I don't think the 800p is Carson Beach.

Carson Beach is meant for both Optane Memory and SSDs. Some sites also show a picture of a 120GB variant with the marking "Optane Memory" on them. Like this one: http://www.legitreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/intel-optane-ssd-ces2018.jpg

Searching the Model also shows listing with the name Optane SSD 800P.

Early roadmap had Optane Memory Stony Beach in 2017, with Brighton Beach taking the spot between Mansion Beach(900P) and Optane Memory. It was also using x2 slot. Then they would both be replaced by x4 slot Carson Beach.

Either 800P is Brighton Beach, but also repurposed to be used as Optane Memory, or its Carson Beach and reduced to an x2 slot.

There will be yet another one called Optane Mobile M10 that will be specifically targeted for laptops. I guess even lower power than SSD 800P.

cbn · Jan 10, 2018

IntelUser2000 said:
Early roadmap had Optane Memory Stony Beach in 2017, with Brighton Beach taking the spot between Mansion Beach(900P) and Optane Memory. It was also using x2 slot. Then they would both be replaced by x4 slot Carson Beach.

My mistake (Carson Beach was, in fact, designated for both SSD and Memory).

IntelUser2000 said:
Either 800P is Brighton Beach, but also repurposed to be used as Optane Memory, or its Carson Beach and reduced to an x2 slot.

I am thinking it is Brighton Beach, but I am hoping we will get a PCIe x 4 Optane Memory as well.

(How much conflict between 58GB PCIe x2 SSD and xGB PCIe x4 Memory?)

IntelUser2000 · Jan 10, 2018

cbn said:
I am thinking it is Brighton Beach, but I am hoping we will get a PCIe x 4 Optane Memory as well.

(How much conflict between 58GB PCIe x2 SSD and xGB PCIe x4 Memory?)

The delays may have prompted Intel to unify Brighton/Carson Beach. So I'll believe they'll choose between either of them.

According to PCMag article Intel said they kept it at x2 to "buoy" the latency of the drive. So I guess in this particular case the x2 offers lower latency than if they made it x4.

Another thing is keeping it at x2 is a good way to keep its distance from the higher end 900P drive. Unlike NAND SSDs, there's only sequential speed gain that keeps the high end and value product split. I hope that means 800P can come at $150 or under for 118GB version. Really though I think they shoud be aggressive like how they priced the 900P to make an impact on the market. $0.9/GB for 118GB please!

At 118GB(or 120GB from the link I gave above), they can completely displace NVMe SSDs on certain laptop/ultrabook configurations. Rather than having 128GB SSD, go with a 118GB Optane setup. According to an article, some laptops in the Intel booth are using RAID 0 SSD 800Ps. With 2x 118GB, it could replace 256GB NAND SSDs.

cbn · Jan 14, 2018

IntelUser2000 said:
The delays may have prompted Intel to unify Brighton/Carson Beach.

Yep, that could have happened.....but with that name Intel Mobile M10 I have to wonder if there could be something like "Intel Optane SSD 1000p" and "Intel Optane Memory 10000p" (All these based on Carson Beach).

Intel Mobile M10 (BGA Carson Beach)
Intel Optane SSD 1000p (M.2 2280 Carson Beach)
Intel Optane Memory 10000p (M.2 2280 Carson Beach, low capacity)

vs.

Intel Optane SSD 800p (M.2 2280 Brighton Beach or Carson Beach with two PCIe lanes disabled)
Intel Optane Memory 8000p (M.2 2280 Stony Beach)

(Then 58GB Optane SSD 800p is cheaper than 64GB Optane memory 10000p.)

P.S. Still wondering on why 800p uses capacity of 58GB and 118GB (odd sizes considering the Optane die is 128Gb. Is the 800p using a low bin 3DXpoint? According to Anandtech they do have lower endurance per GB than the Optane found in Stony Beach.

The 16 GB and 32 GB Optane Memory are both rated for a write endurance of 182.5 TB over five years, equivalent to 100 GB per day. The new 58 GB and 118 GB Optane SSD 800p drives are both rated for 200 GB per day over the same five year warranty period.

IntelUser2000 · Jan 14, 2018

cbn said:
Intel Mobile M10 (BGA Carson Beach)
Intel Optane SSD 1000p (M.2 2280 Carson Beach)
Intel Optane Memory 10000p (M.2 2280 Carson Beach, low capacity)

They can't name it 1000P. Carson Beach is lower Tier than Mansion Beach, which is named 900P. Also the 8000P naming for Stony Beach is obsolete, because they don't use it on actual products.

Based on preliminary information, 800Ps are also named Optane Memory. My speculation is that 800P becomes a generic drive that could be used as caching, or as a standalone drive. You have option to use current Optane Memory as a standalone drive, but the capacity is quite limiting.

For the M10, some foreign sites list current gen Optane Memory as Optane Memory M10. I wonder where Toms got the information, or whether its correct at all. Perhaps 800P can serve all 3 - Optane Memory, SSD, Mobile

P.S. Still wondering on why 800p uses capacity of 58GB and 118GB (odd sizes considering the Optane die is 128Gb. Is the 800p using a low bin 3DXpoint? According to Anandtech they do have lower endurance per GB than the Optane found in Stony Beach.

It could be a mistake. Searching for the models show 30/60/120GB versions coming.

Also I think the endurance ratings are conservative. The 16GB and 32GB Optane memory modules are rated the same. It could be like TDP ratings where its a family TDP, rather than specifying for a particular part.

30GB 800P is double the capacity of the baseline first gen Optane Memory, so doubling endurance rating could be due to that.

cbn · Jan 15, 2018

IntelUser2000 said:
For the M10, some foreign sites list current gen Optane Memory as Optane Memory M10. I wonder where Toms got the information, or whether its correct at all.

cbn · Jan 15, 2018

Here are listings for the 64GB Optane Memory M10 at Tiger Direct and ShopBLT:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=6361481

http://www.shopblt.com/item/intel-optane-mem-m10-series-64gb/intel_mempek1j064gaxt.html

Insert_Nickname · Jan 15, 2018

IntelUser2000 said:
Based on preliminary information, 800Ps are also named Optane Memory. My speculation is that 800P becomes a generic drive that could be used as caching, or as a standalone drive. You have option to use current Optane Memory as a standalone drive, but the capacity is quite limiting.

I think the Optane drives function as standalone drives already. Capacity might be on the low end, but you can squeeze a full Win10 installation on the 32GB, even without compression. With the 16GB you may have to settle with Linux. Anyway, 60GB and 120GB variants should solve that quickly.

IntelUser2000 · Jan 15, 2018

Interesting!

So they are indeed newer drives. No details on the M10 aside from model name and pricing though. It seems some foreign sites are reporting gen 1 drives as M10, which is where my confusion stemmed from.

There are leaks for Intel NAND SSDs coming out, with the top end named 760P. Now it makes sense why its named 800P, rather than 700P. I am hoping that also means 800P is low priced per GB. I mean, preliminary pricing shows $300 for the 120GB version. Why would you not pay $89 more and get 280GB 900P instead?

120GB 800P should be $139. 64GB M10 should be $80.

IntelUser2000 · Jan 17, 2018

Launch date for Optane, and newer SSDs like 760P looks like to be February 13th. Earlier than I expected.

Bier667 · Jan 22, 2018

Insert_Nickname said:
I think the Optane drives function as standalone drives already. Capacity might be on the low end, but you can squeeze a full Win10 installation on the 32GB, even without compression. With the 16GB you may have to settle with Linux. Anyway, 60GB and 120GB variants should solve that quickly.

Sometimes i don't know what the fuzz is all about. I installed Windows 10 x64 back in summer 2017 on the first release cycle of the 32GB Stony Beach. Bootdrive without a hassle. The Controler won't change so the Write Performance will still be castrated.

The 900p, while still beeing some nice product, will be obsolete comes Cascadelake-X. At least thats my wishfull thinking.

Otherwise go and buy some OCZ SSD or what do i know...

IntelUser2000 · Feb 7, 2018

The preliminary pricing for 800P seems to be:

$109 for 60GB
$199 for 120GB

The specs may be 1400MB/s read and 550-600MB/s write.

Though its unknown whether M10 will perform in the similar range, there seems to be some premium on the pricing. About 30% in fact.

cbn · Feb 7, 2018

Here is an article about Intel wanting to replace SATA hard drives on Optane SSD eqipped devices with Cloud storage:

https://www.pcworld.com/article/325...ed-by-ssds-with-optane-and-cloud-storage.html

Here's how Intel's cloud-connected PC vision works: Connecting to storage in the cloud via 5G has roughly the performance of a SATA-based hard drive, Crooke said. “And so if you can put Optane in front of a SATA hard drive, with good performance, in theory you could put that hard drive in the cloud,” he said.

Dayman1225 · Feb 9, 2018

Wrong thread.

IntelUser2000 · Feb 12, 2018

Intel Mobile M10 (BGA Carson Beach)
Intel Optane SSD 1000p (M.2 2280 Carson Beach)
Intel Optane Memory 10000p (M.2 2280 Carson Beach, low capacity)

Intel Optane SSD 800P looks to be Brighton Beach. My current guess is that some of the Gen 2 features outlined in the older roadmap are going to be fit to be used with Brighton Beach. Also, M10 doesn't look like it'll be a BGA device, but M.2 based one. Presumably we'll see BGA variants, but won't be the only ones for M10.

The performance figures also seem suspiciously similar to the early leaked Optane Memory ones. Like this one: https://eteknix-eteknixltd.netdna-s...16/10/Intel-Optane-Memory-8000p-3D-XPoint.jpg

Dayman1225: How is that relevant to this thread?

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