Opinions on mail server, and not loosing any email sent to it

[b4u]

Hi,

Hope this is the right forum to post this ... here I go ...

I'm planning a refresh on a small company's network. I'm gonna have a Win2000 Server, and Win2000 Pro Workstations. Latter they'll be upgraded (when they have enough $$$$) to a Win2003Server and WinXPPro Workstations.

Anyway, I'll have a router with an ethernet ADSL modem installed, so internet is shared. I'll install an email server on the ... erhm ... server , and I'll register a domain, let's say "mycompany.com".

I'll then have to forward the SMTP port on the router to the server machine, so that the server receives the email messages. I'Am I thinking correctly?

The server has DNS configured, for the same registrated domain, "mycompany.com".

This will work correctly to receive my emails, right? I'll then be able to create as much email accounts as I need, and I can change ISP service whenever I can (for a better one) without having to change email accounts (normally something@myisp.com).

My prime question is, am I doing it correctly? And what happens if my server is shuted down? (for example for maintenance)? Will I loose every email that is sent to me while it's down? How can I prevent this? Is there a way of buffering emails, or how could I configure such a network so I don't loose any email?

 

[loup garou]

1) Why not just go straight to an 2003/XP environment? I'd recommend Server 2003 SBS with the appropriate amount of licenses, because it includes Exchange, so you don't have to worry about purchasing another MTA. How many client machines/users are we talking about?
2) Hope that DSL comes with a static IP. It's a pain to set up a mailserver on a dynamic IP. Not impossible, but it sounds like you're still learning and don't need any further complications.
3) Besides "forwarding the SMTP port," you need the appropriate MX records set up with your DNS host.
4) As for "buffering email," a backup mx service such as this one from DynDNS is cheap insurance.

 

[b4u]

Thanks for the quick answer.

1) Well, I thought about going to Win2003 SBS, because as you say, it has everything I will need ... but the problem here is cash related. I'm not really sure how much it will get, but given that a Win2000 Server costs around 1000? (a bit less, maybe) then it would be serious cash to upgrade the software in all machines. We're talking about 1 Server, 3 Desktop and 1 Laptop computers.

2) DSL will be available with a static IP, don't want to play around with dynamic IP's and having third party softwares send regular IP updates to whatever DNS server I use.

3) The registrar I talked to told me they offer mail forwarding, and by that I believe it's the MX record as you say.

4) Backup MX ... I'm opening a new tab on my FireFox right ... now! So I can read about that ... thanks for the link.

 

[loup garou]

Originally posted by: b4u
Thanks for the quick answer.

1) Well, I thought about going to Win2003 SBS, because as you say, it has everything I will need ... but the problem here is cash related. I'm not really sure how much it will get, but given that a Win2000 Server costs around 1000? (a bit less, maybe) then it would be serious cash to upgrade the software in all machines. We're talking about 1 Server, 3 Desktop and 1 Laptop computers.

$1300 for Server 2000? That's way too much. 2003SBS Standard is only $450 with 5 CALs. Are the workstations already Win2k? Or are you upgrading them to Win2k?

 

[b4u]

Hi,

Well, I've just asked for the price of a SBS edition. Can't seem to find info about the product on microsoft page ...

Compare Edition Chart
Prices

I've already heard about that SBS edition, which would come with 5 CD or something like that. It would bring Exchange 2003 in the bundle, but looking at the microsoft's site, I can only find the following individual editions:

Standard Edition
Enterprise Edition
Datacenter Edition
Web Edition

Looking at a page with SBS Features just shows that there would be 2 versions for SBS ... Standard and Premium.

So are those some kind of packages? If so, SBS Standard would bring Win2k3Standard+Exchange2k3+(...) and what about SBS Premium? Would it bring the same Win2k3Standard? Or the Enterprise one?

Thanks

 

[loup garou]

Originally posted by: b4u
Hi,

Well, I've just asked for the price of a SBS edition. Can't seem to find info about the product on microsoft page ...

Compare Edition Chart
Prices

I've already heard about that SBS edition, which would come with 5 CD or something like that. It would bring Exchange 2003 in the bundle, but looking at the microsoft's site, I can only find the following individual editions:

Standard Edition
Enterprise Edition
Datacenter Edition
Web Edition

Looking at a page with SBS Features just shows that there would be 2 versions for SBS ... Standard and Premium.

So are those some kind of packages? If so, SBS Standard would bring Win2k3Standard+Exchange2k3+(...) and what about SBS Premium? Would it bring the same Win2k3Standard? Or the Enterprise one?

Thanks

Standard includes Server 2003 (I believe it is comparable to Standard) and Exchange.
Premium includes Server 2003 (same), Exchange, SQL Server, ISA Server, and FrontPage.

Text

 

[cleverhandle]

Originally posted by: b4u
My prime question is, am I doing it correctly? And what happens if my server is shuted down? (for example for maintenance)? Will I loose every email that is sent to me while it's down? How can I prevent this? Is there a way of buffering emails, or how could I configure such a network so I don't loose any email?

If your server or network is down, most MTA's will hold on to messages in their queue for at least a few days. As somebody else pointed out, you can have a "backup" server to receive mail if you can get secondary MX service somewhere. Note that a secondary MX won't provide you with full email service - your users won't be able to connect to their mailboxes. It only ensures that other MTA's won't give up on sending messages to you.

All that being said, I think you should reconsider having the company run their own MTA. MTA administration is a PITA, especially if you're not familiar with it already. For geeking out at home, go ahead and run sendmail or exchange or whatever. But for a small client that doesn't have specialized mail needs, I think that an email hosting service is a better choice. You can get a lot of service very cheap and save yourself a ton of hassle.

 

[thriemus]

Setup an account with your isp or an email hosting company and then change the MX record for your domain to have different priorty mail servers

First choice your ip address to the win2k server then second priority to the hosting company that will handle your emails. Then configure the server (exchange) using pop connector to pick up emails from the hosting company as well.

This means that if your server goes down, or you are restarting it your emails will goto the hosting company for collection later.

 

[skyking]

MTA administration is a PITA, especially if you're not familiar with it already

Truth!

Been there, done that. Spam is a pain, viruses a pain, and considering the minimal cost it will be so much better. Most good hosts will give you the very latest up to date spam and virus protection, for no additional cost. Of course, you still run virus stuff on the local machines, but your chances of getting something goes way down.
Your time is worth something, and if you bill out what it is worth, you will quickly start wasting their money.

 

[b4u]

Originally posted by: thriemus
Setup an account with your isp or an email hosting company and then change the MX record for your domain to have different priorty mail servers

First choice your ip address to the win2k server then second priority to the hosting company that will handle your emails. Then configure the server (exchange) using pop connector to pick up emails from the hosting company as well.

This means that if your server goes down, or you are restarting it your emails will goto the hosting company for collection later.

So let me try to understand how it works.

1) I regist a domain name, for example mycompany.com that has mail forwarding capabilities (MX record);

2) I regist for a mail backup service, which will provide nothing more than hosting emails from mycompany.com;

3) I point the domain to my localnetwork (WAN) static IP, provided by my ISP (in my domain administration page);

4) I point the domain primary MX record also to my local static IP, provided by my ISP (in my domain administration page);

5) I point the domain secondary MX record also to my local static IP, provided by my ISP (in my domain administration page);

Now, why do I need to point my exchange server? Shouldn't the domain registration (and backup email) be responsible to contact my server and deliver the emails?

All this config and working is kind of blurry right now ... I don't fully understand the paper of each entity in this kind of environment.

 

[cleverhandle]

Is this your company? If so, then have fun. If not, I'll be blunt - you don't know what you're doing, and this is not the way to learn how. It's not just that you don't know software-specific details, but that you don't understand some fundamental concepts of DNS, MX's, and mail transfer. That's fine - nobody is born knowing how to set up an MTA. But then you need to get yourself a test network at home, set up some servers, and experiment until you figure it out. Don't go making your clients' network into a learning experience. It will show, and reflect poorly upon you.

Some comments on your steps:

1) Every domain must have MX records - it's part of DNS and the RFC's governing it. MX'ing is not an optional feature.

2) A secondary MX receives mails to, not from, your domain.

3) There's no such thing as "pointing a domain" to an IP. You point hosts to an IP, or nameservers to an IP, or MX's to an IP. Domains can have many of all of those.

4) You point the primary MX record to the name of your primary MX, which should have an A record to your static IP.

5) No, you enter an MX record in DNS with lower priority (higher MX number) and point that to the hostname of the secondary MX (from #2).

I can't tell what you're asking about the Exchange server. But it should be sitting inside your router and getting port 25 forwarded to it.

 

[Nothinman]

Been there, done that. Spam is a pain, viruses a pain

Setting up postfix to use a few RBLs and spamassassion took like 15 minutes (minus the time to teach spamassassin via sa-learn) and it killed 99% of my spam, it's not too difficult.

 

[skyking]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

Been there, done that. Spam is a pain, viruses a pain

Setting up postfix to use a few RBLs and spamassassion took like 15 minutes (minus the time to teach spamassassin via sa-learn) and it killed 99% of my spam, it's not too difficult.

I did too. No offense, OP, but as cleverhandle has pointed out, would you want someone with these questions taking care of a customer's email, rather than subbing it out?
It looks like a train wreck.

 

[b4u]

Originally posted by: cleverhandle
Is this your company? If so, then have fun. If not, I'll be blunt - you don't know what you're doing, and this is not the way to learn how. It's not just that you don't know software-specific details, but that you don't understand some fundamental concepts of DNS, MX's, and mail transfer. That's fine - nobody is born knowing how to set up an MTA. But then you need to get yourself a test network at home, set up some servers, and experiment until you figure it out. Don't go making your clients' network into a learning experience. It will show, and reflect poorly upon you.

Some comments on your steps:

1) Every domain must have MX records - it's part of DNS and the RFC's governing it. MX'ing is not an optional feature.

2) A secondary MX receives mails to, not from, your domain.

3) There's no such thing as "pointing a domain" to an IP. You point hosts to an IP, or nameservers to an IP, or MX's to an IP. Domains can have many of all of those.

4) You point the primary MX record to the name of your primary MX, which should have an A record to your static IP.

5) No, you enter an MX record in DNS with lower priority (higher MX number) and point that to the hostname of the secondary MX (from #2).

I can't tell what you're asking about the Exchange server. But it should be sitting inside your router and getting port 25 forwarded to it.

Well, like I said, this is a small company's network. The company belongs to my family, so you can say that it's a nice place to learn ... though I don't want more than a very small margin for errors, and so I'm learning about the subject every day, and I'm setting up a virtual network for testing, with the use of vmware. Then, when I'm sure of what's the best option to go for, I'll move forward and implement it.

Anyway, as I read articles about the subject, more questions come into my mind, specially the role of each entity that takes part in regist the domain, and take care of DNS server.

So, I can contact a registrar and pay for a mydomain.com. It will just forward the domain registration to a top-level domain (TLD). But the registrar is not required to have a DNS server, nor give me a front end for administration purposes.

I can then use a service like ZoneEdit to setup a DNS server for my domain, or use a DNS of mine, which I already have on my network ... still I have to inform TLD that the DNS for the domain is my ISP-given IP. Am I right about it? I would then have to forward a specific port on the router to the DNS server inside the network, so it can receive the DNS queries made from the web clients.

 

[cleverhandle]

Originally posted by: b4u
So, I can contact a registrar and pay for a mydomain.com. It will just forward the domain registration to a top-level domain (TLD). But the registrar is not required to have a DNS server, nor give me a front end for administration purposes.

Correct. Though most registrars like GoDaddy and similar can provide DNS, and all have at least enough of a front end to do basic things like set the name servers for your domain.

I can then use a service like ZoneEdit to setup a DNS server for my domain, or use a DNS of mine, which I already have on my network ... still I have to inform TLD that the DNS for the domain is my ISP-given IP. Am I right about it? I would then have to forward a specific port on the router to the DNS server inside the network, so it can receive the DNS queries made from the web clients.

You don't do anything with the TLD entities - the registrars do. When you register your domain, you'll provide the registrar with the hostnames of your DNS servers. If any of the hostnames are servers that you will run, then you also provide the IP address for those nameservers. The registrar will then forward that information to the appropriate authorities.

 

[b4u]

Originally posted by: cleverhandle
You don't do anything with the TLD entities - the registrars do. When you register your domain, you'll provide the registrar with the hostnames of your DNS servers. If any of the hostnames are servers that you will run, then you also provide the IP address for those nameservers. The registrar will then forward that information to the appropriate authorities.

Let's take this scenario: I go to a registrar and pay for a mydomain.com. The registrar may, or may not have DNS servers. If it does, he may submit his own server names to the authorities, or it could give me the option to change/add my own domains.

But if one day I want to change my DNS (to save cash, for instance), is it transparent? I mean, will it be easy to go into my registrar administration page and change DNS's, or it it common to find registrars that make it too dificult for people to change and "exit" their services (even if they are free)?

Also about performance, what should I look for in terms of performance/quality in an online registrar and DNS service? So registering a domain will be forwarded to TLD, but I believe the performance and reliabillity of the DNS's servers will take a role in the speed of answering DNS queries. Are there any "rule-of-tumb" when choosing services? (for example, I'm in Portugal and would I be better served with a Nacional or International service)


Important: Many Thanks for all the info and the patience helping this registrar/DNS n00b . I really appreciate it!

 

[skyking]

changing dns:
1: go to new server and create record for your domain.
2:go to registrar and make change.
3: usually the changes propogate within 24 hours.

since your records exist at both servers, there is no down time, except in the event that the records are incorrectly set up in the new server. If it is a weekday business, I recommend making any changes late friday afternoon. This gives you the most time to sort out any problems with either moving a domain to a new server or changing dns.

 

[b4u]

Thanks for the replies so far ... they've been helpfull in pointing me in the right direction.

Now to mess up the puzzle again , I'm considering the following scenarios:

Scenario #1

My ISP gives me a dynamic IP address. I register DynDNS and I get a free domain name.

Example: mycompany.dyndns.org

Advantages: Some routers, for example in the Linksys range of products, have the functionallity of auto-updating the WAN IP address on some online services. In the case of Linksys, it works with DynDNS. That is, I configure the router with username and password, and everytime the IP changes, the router updates the service.

Disadvantages: For a company, it's not that perfect to have a domain named mycompany.dyndns.org ... it would be prefered a domain like mycompany.com.


Scenario #2

I setup my ISP IP to give me a static IP. I'll have to pay about an added cost of 10?/month.

Then I could go to a registrar and create the domain I want.

Example: mycompany.com

Advantages: Well, I would have a domain I choose, and a more indicated one for a company.

Disadvantages: Maybe the registrar doesn't provide me with a manageable DNS server ... then I would have two options ... either having my own DNS, or use a free one like the one in ZoneEdit or Sitelutions. They both offer free DNS servers and Sitelutions offer a Backup Email MX records for a fee ...


Still, I'll have that 10? monthly fee to have a static IP ... any way of registering a domain, and have a way of linking/updating it for a dynamic IP?

If I go for my own DNS server, it would still be better to configure an external service for a DNS server (even a free one), to avoid loosing DNS queries right? I mean my server would be intended to be a 24/7 one, but still failures do happen, and server may need some maintenance ...


Thank you again, for more opinions ...

 

[b4u]

Originally posted by: skyking
changing dns:
1: go to new server and create record for your domain.
2:go to registrar and make change.
3: usually the changes propogate within 24 hours.

since your records exist at both servers, there is no down time, except in the event that the records are incorrectly set up in the new server. If it is a weekday business, I recommend making any changes late friday afternoon. This gives you the most time to sort out any problems with either moving a domain to a new server or changing dns.

When transfering the domain, I read that it would be better to change the dns servers in the first place, to the dns servers of the new domain host (after transfer, that is).

Does it mean that I'll have to create all records (A, CNAME, MX, ...) the exact same way on the new host dns's? Isn't there a way of transfering that info between them?

 

[nweaver]

Dyndns offers dynamic DNS for regular domain names, but it's fee based. The other nice thing about dyndns is that it has clients, so if you change to a linux s/w firewall, then you put the daemon on it and it will update the dyndns servers.

 

[netsysadmin]

Check out zoneedit.com. They work just like dynDNS, but they allow you to host you domain name such as john.com not john.dynDNS.com. They are also free and for a few dollars extra a year they offer a mail backup service in case your server goes down for some reason. I use zoneedit.com myself and i have had no issues at all.

John