Opinion Time: Why do you approve or dissapprove of preemption policy?

[DealMonkey]

I'm afraid "pre-emptive war" is just a nice way of saying "hey, we're starting a war." Looking back at the 9/11 scenario, what country could we have attacked pre-emptively in order to prevent 9/11 (assuming we know what we know now)?

I'll give you the answer: none. I say none, because even if we bombed Afghanistan into oblivion, it wouldn't have stopped the 19 hijackers who were already inside the U.S. Even post-9/11 when we actually did attack Afghanistan and subsequently took control of the country, we still are having difficulty tracking down Al Qaeda and of course OBL is still MIA. So when dealing with the issue of terrorism, which is what this is all about, how would a pre-emptive war policy really accomplish anything?

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Gaard
What happens when a mistake is made?

What happens when a real threat is ignored?

I'll get back to you when this happens.

its called crime. or terrorism if you want a larger scale.

Then that is the risk we take. I do not want police shooting people because the might one day do something. There has to be a certain minimum standard for action with the threshold for war being very very high indeed, and with solid protocols regarding measures taken. If police acted as loosely as Bush did, we would have lynchings all over. For some that is acceptable. For me it is not.

Edit: BTW, Iraq was not demonstrated to be a credible terroristic threat nor a substantial danger to other countries.

Like I said, let me get back to you when a real threat is ignored.

so, basically, you're ok with innocent people dying or their possession being stolen from them because you feel that we must wait untill the act has been committed untill we enact justice?

 

[DealMonkey]

Genesys - did you ever see the movie Minority Report? Even *if* we had some sort of precognition to determine whether crimes were going to be committed in the future, no system is perfect. In the movie, the population accepts the "pre-crime" arrests because they are unaware of the small percentage of error. All they see is the end result, alleged murders being prevented. It also brings up a somewhat philisophical argument about whether a crime is even a crime until it happens. An interesting topic to be sure, but I digress...

Mistakes would be made. Don't you ever wonder why the police can't do anything until an actual crime has been committed? Victims of stalkers complain about that all the time, but the bottom line is, you can't just go arresting people (or according to your examples) kill/wound them just because you *think* they're going to do something.

I find it hard to believe you don't understand the common sense involved.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Gaard
What happens when a mistake is made?

What happens when a real threat is ignored?

I'll get back to you when this happens.

its called crime. or terrorism if you want a larger scale.

Then that is the risk we take. I do not want police shooting people because the might one day do something. There has to be a certain minimum standard for action with the threshold for war being very very high indeed, and with solid protocols regarding measures taken. If police acted as loosely as Bush did, we would have lynchings all over. For some that is acceptable. For me it is not.

Edit: BTW, Iraq was not demonstrated to be a credible terroristic threat nor a substantial danger to other countries.

Like I said, let me get back to you when a real threat is ignored.

so, basically, you're ok with innocent people dying or their possession being stolen from them because you feel that we must wait untill the act has been committed untill we enact justice?

So you are for 1984 then? We can have the Ministry of Love. That would certainly enact justice. If word gets out, we have the Ministry of Truth to encourage the proper memories of people. The Ministry of Peace can spread throughout the land and overseas too.

Living in a free society entails certain risks. We trade security for liberty. I much prefer the latter.
I submit at some level you either are "ok" with people being killed, and things being stolen by others, or you argue for a police state both foreign and domestic. We accept liberty or surrender it.


Where your logic breaks down is that you act as if there has to either be mayhem or complete control. What I said in my OP in this thread is that sometimes preemptive is necessary. In the domestic analogy, if someone is seen with a gun, and everyone knows its a gun, and the gunman says he is going to shoot a room full of people, then the police may very well act preemptively and shoot him.

Now, someone tells a policeman that someone has a gun, and the policeman goes out and shoots the accused. That too prevents others from being killed.

Is that all the same to you? That because two people got shot, they are an equivalent act on the part of the officer? I don't think so. Most reasonable people would not either.

There were people on the ground inspecting. Saddam was not a threat. Anything larger than a paper airplane flying through the no-fly zones would have been shot down. Mass troop movements would have been seen. Saddam could have been forced to accept any weapon inspection program because he had no choice. Notice how well his army did in the war, or rather did not.

So Saddam throws a fit, and drags his feet, and we being in a far far superior position just take our time and look around. Blix certainly could. The problem I believe is that this was all a red herring. It did not matter what Saddam did or did not do. We were going to get him, and use any excuse to do so.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: Gaard
What happens when a mistake is made?

 

[Vadatajs]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Gaard
What happens when a mistake is made?

Turn on the news. We're about to find out.