Opinion Piece on Social Policies

[railven]

Before we get into issues with the source, I’d like to state that this is a subject that is interesting to me and got approval to post for discussion.

http://alienbabeltech.com/main/?p=29278
http://alienbabeltech.com/abt/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24650

I find this subject interesting because of the accusations being implied by the author, and source site, with out any real evidence. It’s getting to the point where they are promoting unwarranted implications that any AMD/ATI fan should be considered a compensated employee of AMD or their marketing affiliates. As an AMD/ATI fan (note: I only use Radeon’s) I find this approach rather insulting.

If you’ve read the article you’ll see how only one specific company is really examined even though they have their own policy on social networking. The author goes on to stretch accusations of this site and staff of being involved in this marketing agenda. One specific quote from IDC is used to support their claims, yet if they did any real investigation they’d come across the other quotes from IDC that clarified on his original post.

After waiting for months for this “article” to surface I find myself with the same opinion I did during the investigative parts and the Q&A – which is there is still absolutely no evidence that proves any of the claims.

tl;dr

How do you guys feel about these “viral shill” accusations for simply supporting a product you prefer? It’s amazing that openly supporting a product/brand and being an otherwise fanboy/girl is now being misconstrued as being someone who is compensated to do so. Is that the next level of forum posting?

 

[Ferzerp]

As an AMD/ATI fan (note: I only use Radeon’s) I find this approach rather insulting.

This concept is extremely problematic as the people accused of being shills are people incapable of objective discourse on the topic they are so passionate about. You end up with people who will make absurd claims and have two modes. Either totally unreasonable and argumentative, or happy go lucky when in an echo chamber of people who agree with them.

We have certain posters who there is little point in replying to because they are not interesting in having a discussion. All they want to do is promote a specific company or belittle their hated company. This gets old, and doesn't result in any meaningful discourse.

They may as well be treated the same because they both provide little to no value to an actual discussion.

 

[Jaydip]

Every one of us is entitled to their own opinions.I prefer NV cards while u prefer Radeons and thats perfectly fine and we can safely coexist.I don't like the so called unbiased guys who comments like they are messiah of this age.We have blind fans from both side and they both become irritable at some point.I believe AMD should ask their employees to identify themselves in the tech forums jus like JFAMD did.When Keys post here u know he is member of NFG and u have been forewarned but what about some amd employees who may lurk here from time to time?Its beyond silly to think that there are no amd emploees among us and i ask them just to identify themselves.Thats it.

 

[railven]

This concept is extremely problematic as the people accused of being shills are people incapable of objective discourse on the topic they are so passionate about. You end up with people who will make absurd claims and have two modes. Either totally unreasonable and argumentative, or happy go lucky when in an echo chamber of people who agree with them.

We have certain posters who there is little point in replying to because they are not interesting in having a discussion. All they want to do is promote a specific company or belittle their hated company. This gets old, and doesn't result in any meaningful discourse.

They may as well be treated the same because they both provide little to no value to an actual discussion.

I completely agree with you, and those people I tend to ignore (or at least not try to discuss hardware with them.)

I think what irritates me more is the flip-flopping on subjects some people tend to do. This is just a personal pet peeve, but for example watching some belittle HardOCP due to an unflattering review of brand-X only for them to praise HardOCP on a complimentary review of brand-X a week later. It's like - really guys, really? haha.

Every one of us is entitled to their own opinions.I prefer NV cards while u prefer Radeons and thats perfectly fine and we can safely coexist.I don't like the so called unbiased guys who comments like they are messiah of this age.We have blind fans from both side and they both become irritable at some point.I believe AMD should ask their employees to identify themselves in the tech forums jus like JFAMD did.When Keys post here u know he is member of NFG and u have been forewarned but what about some amd employees who may lurk here from time to time?Its beyond silly to think that there are no amd emploees among us and i ask them just to identify themselves.Thats it.

I think it depends in context. For example, JFAMD was openly promoting AMD (and I think he personally got off rather easily for the whole IPC fiasco.)

When you open an account here (or at ABT since I know you're a member there) was there a question to disclose your employer? Or is your request specific only to AMD employees? Personally I feel people are entitled to some anonymity unless they are going to become spokes people for their company (ie JFAMD.)

As an employee of a medical company, I won't disclose my employer because I don't have the most flattering things to say. Why should I risk my employment so you have some piece of mind that my opinion is just that - my opinion?

 

[Ferzerp]

I think what irritates me more is the flip-flopping on subjects some people tend to do. This is just a personal pet peeve, but for example watching some belittle HardOCP due to an unflattering review of brand-X only for them to praise HardOCP on a complimentary review of brand-X a week later. It's like - really guys, really? haha.

I myself have been somewhat guilty of that. I've tried to give them the benefit of the doubt lately, as they've started at least making sure to always compare at the same settings now. That, and lately the variance in settings they use seems to have gotten much smaller. Usually, it's only a one setting difference. Back when they started that "best playable settings" mess, it seems their comparisons would be with 3 or 4 settings totally different, and trying to derive much utility out of them was very difficult. Sometimes one card would have certain settings set higher than the other, but other settings set lower. I would just look at it and think "How in the world am I supposed to make sense out of this? Card A has high shadows, and no AA, but card B has low shadows and lots of AA, wtf?" Now what we tend to see is that they will only vary one setting. I can understand that at least.

 

[Jaydip]

You misunderstood my point.You definitely don't have to share your employer details as i would never share mine.I liked JFAMD's post because he was an engineer and everyone can make mistakes.But the thing is these so called unbiased posters create lots of noise.There are lot of threads where u will see this scenario.I only ask them to identify themselves because it will help AMD in the long run.If NV can create a focus group why can't AMD?

 

[railven]

I myself have been somewhat guilty of that. I've tried to give them the benefit of the doubt lately, as they've started at least making sure to always compare at the same settings now. That, and lately the variance in settings they use seems to have gotten much smaller. Usually, it's only a one setting difference. Back when they started that "best playable settings" mess, it seems their comparisons would be with 3 or 4 settings totally different, and trying to derive much utility out of them was very difficult. Sometimes one card would have certain settings set higher than the other, but other settings set lower. I would just look at it and think "How in the world am I supposed to make sense out of this? Card A has high shadows, and no AA, but card B has low shadows and lots of AA, wtf?" Now what we tend to see is that they will only vary one setting. I can understand that at least.

HardOCP is one of those sites, to me at least, that you either agree with or disagree with in terms of their settings used. I like that they attempt to show best settings they can use, but their goal of 30 FPS seems to low for me and I'd often sacrifice something to get higher. Overall, I don't really make any buying decisions on their methods, but I'm glad they are around.

There was a time when HardOCP was accused of being a shill site too. Haha.

 

[BFG10K]

As an employee of a medical company, I won't disclose my employer because I don't have the most flattering things to say. Why should I risk my employment so you have some piece of mind that my opinion is just that - my opinion?

There’s a key difference here – you aren’t going around and shilling products and/or services that your company provides. Staying anonymous is one thing, being a shill is something entirely different. Being a shill is actually illegal in some situations.

If there really are AMD shills among us then they need step forward and reveal themselves. The nVidia focus group did, now let’s see if you can.

As an aside, it’ll be interesting to see how Anandtech management reacts to this, if at all. The article seems to be implying that this forum is a sanctioned haven for AMD shills.

 

[railven]

You misunderstood my point.You definitely don't have to share your employer details as i would never share mine.I liked JFAMD's post because he was an engineer and everyone can make mistakes.But the thing is these so called unbiased posters create lots of noise.There are lot of threads where u will see this scenario.I only ask them to identify themselves because it will help AMD in the long run.If NV can create a focus group why can't AMD?

Again, what does knowing someone's employer do outside of "well clearly he works for x-company, ignore his opinion that is pro x-company and anti-any other company?"

People who I see openly promoting one company I tend to ignore, because frankly whether they are paid to do so or just an avid fan, their opinion is already set in stone and basically nothing will change it. On top of that, why would I even start to question their affiliation? If I found out t hey were associated with a company would I change my opinion on ignoring them? If anything I'd try to milk them for inside info haha.

AMD can most certainly create an equivalent to the NFG. Not sure what that would do for the members. Frankly, I've yet to see any benefit from an NFG member posting here, at least as of late. It seemed they were more involved in the past and back then it wasn't all smiles.

What rules are there in place by employers to monitor their employees? One can easily speculate that other employees from other companies with stated social media policies post in tech forums without disclosure. They possibly do it on their own time (as chances are it is what they did before they got hired.) Are they too required to disclose their employers?

 

[railven]

There’s a key difference here – you aren’t going around and shilling products and/or services that your company provides. Staying anonymous is one thing, being a shill is something entirely different. Being a shill is actually illegal in some situations.

If there really are AMD shills among us then they need step forward and reveal themselves. The nVidia focus group did, now let’s see if you can.

As an aside, it’ll be interesting to see how Anandtech management reacts to this, if at all. The article seems to be implying that this forum is a sanctioned haven for AMD shills.

I definitely agree with that, if there are any known shills/marketers they should disclose that - as it is their job to do so based on the social policies disclosed by certain companies.

However, where do we draw the line? Do we just speculate and accuse avid supporters of a company? Or do we just single out the trouble makers? I've seen sports fan make the dumbest arguments for their teams, not once did it ever occur to me they were employed by the team - to draw an analogy.

Unless AT starts to require people to disclose their employers at the sign up process, how are we to determine who is who - a witch hunt?

Also, from all my research, the NFG guys didn't just come clean, they were busted. I was hoping this "article" would get some where - so far it's just crying wolf pointing fingers into the woods. I'm sure there are wolves in there...somewhere...maybe?

 

[Jaydip]

My employer has some very strict rules.I can post without disclosing my identity but i can't share any work related information.U can ignore the marketting guys but not everyone can.If i promote my company's product i must identify myself,otherwise it sounds very unethical to me.I have no problems with AMD employees among us actually i encourage that.The end users will be benefited from these kind of interactions.But if i ask them to reveal their true identity whats the problem with that?

 

[railven]

My employer has some very strict rules.I can post without disclosing my identity but i can't share any work related information.U can ignore the marketting guys but not everyone can.If i promote my company's product i must identify myself,otherwise it sounds very unethical to me.I have no problems with AMD employees among us actually i encourage that.The end users will be benefited from these kind of interactions.But if i ask them to reveal their true identity whats the problem with that?

The non-bold: I have similar strict policies at my job, recently enacted, which require us to identify ourselves as an employee and state "everything said is our opinion, blah" but (here is the big but) there is a little sub section that points out any negative material can be used against us with the usual up to termination crap. Which is weird, makes me wonder if I said something bad at a bar and a coworker just happens to be there - could I be fired? Anyways, that's off topic.

The Bold: See, I still disagree with that. If someone works for ASRock and they create an account on this forum but only post in the console gaming section - do they have to reveal their employer? What good does it do them? I understand your request, but by all means the same request should be made to us too, am I correct?

I think the difference in our opinions is, I don't think of all employees of company-X as marketers. They are just that - employees. They can be janitors, or hell just secretaries. Or are you specific only to marketers and or engineers/executives? Where do you draw the line of whether someone's involvement with a company can influence your buying habits?

Again, not to name people, but someone actively posted negatively in almost every graphics-card-X thread - are they a marketer? I doubt it. But I didn't see people accuse said person of being involved with another company.

 

[Jaydip]

The non-bold: I have similar strict policies at my job, recently enacted, which require us to identify ourselves as an employee and state "everything said is our opinion, blah" but (here is the big but) there is a little sub section that points out any negative material can be used against us with the usual up to termination crap. Which is weird, makes me wonder if I said something bad at a bar and a coworker just happens to be there - could I be fired? Anyways, that's off topic.

The Bold: See, I still disagree with that. If someone works for ASRock and they create an account on this forum but only post in the console gaming section - do they have to reveal their employer? What good does it do them? I understand your request, but by all means the same request should be made to us too, am I correct?

I think the difference in our opinions is, I don't think of all employees of company-X as marketers. They are just that - employees. They can be janitors, or hell just secretaries. Or are you specific only to marketers and or engineers/executives? Where do you draw the line of whether someone's involvement with a company can influence your buying habits?

Again, not to name people, but someone actively posted negatively in almost every graphics-card-X thread - are they a marketer? I doubt it. But I didn't see people accuse said person of being involved with another company.

I and u are not promoting our employers.We are not affecting others peoples buying decision.I never said i think all the amd employees are marketers.I have tremendous respect for AMD engineers.But if u can influence others peoples buying decision u should identify yourself regardless of your intent and that's should be true for very company not just AMD.They are their ambassadors and they should be identified as such.

 

[railven]

I and u are not promoting our employers.We are not affecting others peoples buying decision.I never said i think all the amd employees are marketers.I have tremendous respect for AMD engineers.But if u can influence others peoples buying decision u should identify yourself regardless of your intent and that's should be true for very company not just AMD.They are their ambassadors and they should be identified as such.

Again, under what context? You removed yourself and I from conversation because we aren't promoting our employer.

If an employee isn't promoting their employer, do they have to disclose it?

 

[Jaydip]

No of-course not.But if u enter a discussion where u can affect others people buying decision u should definitely identify yourself.Because to others u r an unbiased fellow but that might be entirely wrong.

 

[blckgrffn]

As an aside, it’ll be interesting to see how Anandtech management reacts to this, if at all. The article seems to be implying that this forum is a sanctioned haven for AMD shills.

I completely agree. For me, that will be the most interesting outcome possible of that article and this thread.

Of course, it begs the question of whether or not an article like that should be a driver of change here - again, I agree with your assessment of the article and what it's main purpose is. The least interesting outcome is that there is no response, however I would think that is the most likely scenario.

I appreciate this topic existing, but it's hard to imagine that we'll see any information or arguments made that we haven't seen already (within it's context.)

 

[railven]

No of-course not.But if u enter a discussion where u can affect others people buying decision u should definitely identify yourself.Because to others u r an unbiased fellow but that might be entirely wrong.

If you work for a company, and you post on a forum, you get into a discussion about what your company creates - say you aren't involved in the creation of the product, but you work for the company - do you have to disclose it? What if you are posting against your company's product in favor of another product? Do you still disclose it?

I feel we're getting to a point where we aren't allowing people their own identity outside of their employers. It seems if someone works for a company and they discuss the product regardless of their position, they should be required to disclose their affiliation.

 

[Jionix]

I don't really see any reason to bring this up... ABT is irrelevant. No one is paying attention their crusade against secret AMD shills other then their own forum members. It has no traction. It has no substance. No one really cares.

You go over to their forums, and all they do is preach to their own choir. This campaign of theirs has been going on for how many months now? And it has produced what exactly?

Wasted efforts. ABT was never much of a review site, but now it is even less so. If they want to change formats to that of investigation journalism, they can go right ahead. But someone needs to let the brains over there know that their investigation should at least produce something meaningful, instead of nothing at all.

 

[Jaydip]

As i said previously we can't share work related information which could lead to termination of job.I never discuss about my company's products in open forums.We already have blogs,closed forums for that.My basic rule is simple u must identify yourself if u can have influence on others buying decisions.Whats so hard about it?

 

[blckgrffn]

As i said previously we can't share work related information which could lead to termination of job.I never discuss about my company's products in open forums.We already have blogs,closed forums for that.My basic rule is simple u must identify yourself if u can have influence on others buying decisions.Whats so hard about it?

Does that stop w/AMD though? Or should that be true of all forum members?

I think abandoning our privacy to post here might be a high bar.

 

[Grooveriding]

The whole thing is bullshit he's posted. ABT/editor there got cut off from AMD, went off the deep end, decided it was due to a conspiracy amongst posters here at AT.

Has zero proof, absolutely nothing but innuendo and paranoia. This is a real journalist ? What happened to the paragon of credible journalism; verification and confirmation from more than one source ? He doesn't even have a first source, let alone a second.

Let me know when he has some actual proof, something, anything at all more than just saying it's true. Sorry to be harsh, but it's no different than a schizophrenic who thinks demons are chasing him just because of a dysfunctional eerie feeling.

Not that I think it's beyond the realm of possibility for a company to use shills in forums, but, until I see evidence; the only viral marketing shill company on record around these forums is nvidia.

Might as well say Gskill is shilling here, Intel is shilling here, OCZ is shilling here, Seagate is shilling here, Microsoft is shilling here etc. There is as much 'evidence' provided (read none) those companies are, as there is that AMD is. The real question is why is he targeting AMD instead of any other random enterprise ?

Sounds like sour grapes and an axe to grind to me.

 

[Jaydip]

Thats should be true for everyone.

 

[railven]

I completely agree. For me, that will be the most interesting outcome possible of that article and this thread.

Of course, it begs the question of whether or not an article like that should be a driver of change here. The least interesting outcome is that there is no response, however I would think that is the most likely scenario.

I appreciate this topic existing, but it's hard to imagine that we'll see any information or arguments made that we haven't seen already (within it's context.)

An AMD policy on social media appeared, I myself can't determine when it was created and I'd like to give the author of the article here the benefit of the doubt that they investigated - so I'd assume the policy was an aftermath. If so, change is clearly in the works.

However, what I find interesting is that even after this policy appeared, the author continues to beat his drum and accuse members here without any evidence. He keeps reciting IDC's post, which only tells us we have employees of tech companies posting here.

My question is - are these people allowed to have privacy or must they disclose their affiliation - even if they aren't posting to promote their company? People are often a trade before they are employed. Someone posting here as an engineer loves talking about it, they get hired by x-company, do they now have to disclose that to continue discussing subjects on engineering?

 

[railven]

Does that stop w/AMD though? Or should that be true of all forum members?

I think abandoning our privacy to post here might be a high bar.

This. Where do we stop identifying as ourselves and start becoming corporate logos?

JFAMD revealing himself did nothing for discussions outside of create attacks, speculation, and false reassurance. If he were anonymous I'd bet you an arm or a leg people would dismiss some of his claims as fanboy jibberish.

The discussions went from "I don't think that will happen" to "Trust me, I work for AMD."

 

[Topweasel]

My personal view would be whether you were posting on behalf of a company. If you are posting at home on your own time but happen to be an Nvidia or AMD employee then so be it. If your a cheerleader type of poster as apposed to a rational unbiased poster, then your habits will be clearly laid out for everyone to see and people rarely listen to those types. Really is an employee who loves the tech his company produces any different then a tech who mostly buys from company A, then buys one product from company B, gets burned and swears off Company B for life and spends the rest of his posting time talking up A, and bad mouthing B.

I think the big key in this is whether they are paid for their posts. Most people have bias. For whatever reason. But its another thing to actually get paid for posting "advertising" posts. It isn't even an issue for us posters but Anandtech in general. They are skirting around paying Anandtech for advertising, by giving one tech who will post in several forums money or hardware. They also targeted in the case of NFG, mods, and at the time respected posters. So they were buying into an already established level of respect and attention.

I don't have a problem with bias. I don't have a problem with cheerleaders. The worst get ignored by my profile. Most of the rest get ignored by me personally. Smart people, which I hope most of us are, will see right through them. It's the ones paid directly for their posts by the company, that makes me feel insulted (in that I would buy it), and I feel the practice is damaging to advertising supported forums. The NFG stuff really got to me here and was one of the reasons I stopped posting for a long time. Mostly because I was a fan of Nvidia products at the time (they were really coming into there own with stumbles by ATI at the time, just after the horrible 5k series) and I defended at least one of them.