Op-Ed piece by American Enterprise Institute scholar says Obama isn't a pinko-commie

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
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Granted, Norman J. Ornstein is not exactly hard-right (in fact he's somewhat liberal), but he's a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, which doesn't fit anyone's definition of a leftie think tank. Yet Ornstein views Obama as (in his words) "center-left, perhaps, but not left of center," and finds characterizations that Obama is radical downright bizarre.

As Ornstein points out, many of the details of Obama's policies have their origins on the right and have garnered strong Republican support, at least until they were made part of legislation proposed and/or introduced by Democrats. For example, the health-insurance mandate came from the Heritage Foundation and was adopted enthusiastically by Mitt Romney and other conservatives. But now, the mandate is downright un-American - or at least that's what the right is now saying. And Ornstein points out that "managed competition" among health insurance companies was a centerpiece of Republican legislation introduced (but not passed) in the mid-1990s. But now, "managed competition" is called "a government takeover" and "a disaster" by the right.

I'd really like to hear why policies originally proposed by Republicans are suddenly anathema when proposed and passed by Democrats. Perhaps our ATPN resident right-wing scholars can enlighten us.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/13/AR2010041303686.html

Obama: A pragmatic moderate faces the 'socialist' smear
By Norman J. Ornstein

In the 1950s, Democratic senators from the solidly Democratic South uniformly supported segregation and opposed civil rights and voting rights bills. They dutifully spent long hours on the Senate floor filibustering such efforts. Legend has it that during one marathon filibuster, after Olin Johnston of South Carolina, a populist liberal on economic matters, handed off the baton to Strom Thurmond, Johnston went into the cloakroom where many of his colleagues were seated, gestured back toward the Senate floor, and said, "Old Strom, he really believes that [expletive]."
This Story

This story came to mind with the recent blizzard of attacks on Barack Obama by Republican presidential wannabes and other office-seekers, along with their allies on cable television and talk radio. The most extravagant rhetoric has come out of the gathering of Southern Republicans in New Orleans, led by former House speaker Newt Gingrich, who called Obama "the most radical president in American history" and urged his partisan audience to stop Obama's "secular, socialist machine."

At the same conference, Liz Cheney, the former vice president's daughter who is often mentioned as a possible Senate candidate from Virginia, fiercely attacked Obama's foreign policy as "apologize for America, abandon our allies and appease our enemies." And last week the ubiquitous Sarah Palin said of the arms-control treaty Obama signed with Russia, "No administration in America's history would, I think, ever have considered such a step," likening it to a kid telling others in a playground fight, "Go ahead, punch me in the face and I'm not going to retaliate."

On talk radio, Rush Limbaugh accused Obama of administering "statist-assisted suicide." Talk show host Michael Savage called Obama's health-care plan "socialized medicine" and described the nuclear treaty as "insane." These are not isolated comments; the terms "radical," "socialist" and even "totalitarian" are bandied about frequently by Obama opponents, including congressional and other GOP leaders.

To one outside the partisan and ideological wars, charges of radicalism, socialism, retreat and surrender are, frankly, bizarre. The Democrats' health-reform plan includes no public option and relies on managed competition through exchanges set up much like those for federal employees. The individual mandate in the plan sprang from a Heritage Foundation idea that was endorsed years ago by a range of conservatives and provided the backbone of the Massachusetts plan that was crafted and, until recently, heartily defended by Mitt Romney. It would be fair to describe the new act as Romneycare crossed with the managed-competition bill proposed in 1994 by Republican Sens. John Chafee, David Durenberger, Charles Grassley and Bob Dole -- in other words, as a moderate Republican plan. Among its supporters is Durenberger, no one's idea of a radical socialist.

What about Obama's other domestic initiatives? The stimulus was anything but radical -- indeed, many mainstream observers, me included, thought it was too timid in size and scope given the enormity of the problems. The plan could have been more focused on swift and directed stimulus. It included such diversions as a fix for the alternative minimum tax -- at the insistence of Grassley. And it excluded some "shovel-ready" ideas such as school construction -- at the insistence of Republican Sen. Susan Collins. It did not include the kind of public works jobs program employed by Franklin Roosevelt. Nonetheless, it has been widely credited with ameliorating the worst effects of the downturn and helping to move us back toward economic growth. The widely criticized Troubled Assets Relief Program -- initiated by Obama's predecessor -- is now returning to the Treasury most of the taxpayer money laid out to keep us from depression and deflation.

It is true that, in an attempt to head off a meltdown stemming from a collapse of the automobile industry, Obama engineered a temporary takeover of two of the Big Three auto companies. But nothing suggests that this is anything but temporary, and Obama has resisted many calls to take over major banks and other financial institutions.

The nuclear treaty with Russia excoriated by Palin, Savage and others was endorsed by Indiana Sen. Richard Lugar, the GOP's resident foreign policy expert, and it was crafted under Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who was first appointed to that post by George W. Bush. Obama's approach to terrorism has been similar to Bush's, while more aggressively targeting leaders of terrorist groups; his larger foreign policy has received the seal of approval from James Baker, former chief of staff to Ronald Reagan and secretary of state to George H.W. Bush. Obama's energy policies include more nuclear power and more offshore drilling. Obama's education policies have received wide acclaim across the political spectrum. The "secular" president has shored up and supported federal faith-based initiatives, to the dismay of many in his base.

Looking at the range of Obama domestic and foreign policies, and his agency and diplomatic appointments, my conclusion is clear: This president is a mainstream, pragmatic moderate, operating in the center of American politics; center-left, perhaps, but not left of center. The most radical president in American history? Does Newt Gingrich, a PhD in history, really believe that [expletive]?
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
62,311
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I'd really like to hear why policies originally proposed by Republicans are suddenly anathema when proposed and passed by Democrats. Perhaps our ATPN resident right-wing scholars can enlighten us.

Because when Republicans do it, they're doing it because they LOVE America!
But when Democrats do it, it's because they HATE America!
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,112
1,587
126
As I've been saying. The current republicans have gone so crazy as fuck to the right, that center politics look socialist to them. I think they'd call Ahmadinejad a socialist liberal if he were in the US and not Iran.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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-snip-
As Ornstein points out, many of the details of Obama's policies have their origins on the right and have garnered strong Republican support, at least until they were made part of legislation proposed and/or introduced by Democrats. For example, the health-insurance mandate came from the Heritage Foundation and was adopted enthusiastically by Mitt Romney and other conservatives.

Good lord, nothing like exaggeration. :rolleyes:

So some lefty guy makes a case in support of Obama and conservatives are suppose to come running?

The article is weak sauce. So Mitt Romney, the same guy who at that time supported gay marriage and was strongly pro-abortion, was governor of a liberal state whose legislature passed 'Romney Care' and this somehow translates into a HC mandate being strongly supported by Repubs? Are you kidding?

Besides, that article glosses over major points every step of the way. E.g., a big compaint about the HCR is the Medicaid mandate being forced onto states. Any discussion of Romney care is completely irrelevent to that.

I could go on but the article is so weak it isn't worth it.

Fern
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
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I'd really like to hear why policies originally proposed by Republicans are suddenly anathema when proposed and passed by Democrats. Perhaps our ATPN resident right-wing scholars can enlighten us.

Can you point to this support the right had when Romney did it? Or is that just an assumption that since Romney is a republican that all republicans support him, and his policies? I wouldn't have supported it if it had been in my state, just like I don't support it for the country. Not too mention the fines for not having insurance were challenged in court there also. Sorry, "the republicans liked it when republicans did it" dog don't hunt.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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The article is hardly shocking news to most Americans who think, especially most of us that lean left who are disappointed with a too conservative Obama.

As for the radical right, its not rocket science to predict it will figuratively go in one ear and out the other without impacting a single brain cell.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
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Can you point to this support the right had when Romney did it? Or is that just an assumption that since Romney is a republican that all republicans support him, and his policies? I wouldn't have supported it if it had been in my state, just like I don't support it for the country. Not too mention the fines for not having insurance were challenged in court there also. Sorry, "the republicans liked it when republicans did it" dog don't hunt.

Scott Brown supported Romney-Care.




--
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,579
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Much as I despise Romney, why the hell was he able to damn near win the nomination? Why is he the likely nominee for 2012? Republicans like to talk down big government whilst voting it into power. His views apparently match theirs enough to garner their support.

This really has nothing to do with Obama. He is not Republican and so they will tar and feather him. Is this supposed to be news, that two enemies will fight each other? I'm shocked. :eek:

No, what's really news here is that a Democrat is calling Republicans bad. No one saw that coming.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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Much as I despise Romney, why the hell was he able to damn near win the nomination? Why is he the likely nominee for 2012? Republicans like to talk down big government whilst voting it into power. His views apparently match theirs enough to garner their support.

This really has nothing to do with Obama. He is not Republican and so they will tar and feather him. Is this supposed to be news, that two enemies will fight each other? I'm shocked. :eek:

No, what's really news here is that a Democrat is calling Republicans bad. No one saw that coming.

"Damn near win"?

The only person he beat in the primary was Ron Paul. Even Huckabee was ahead of Romney.

Romney was also noted to have changed about every position he held while Gov of MA.

This whole line of discussion is weak sauce. When Obama proposes amnesty for illegal aliens are we gonna have to hear how that's a Repub idea because that jackass McCain proposed it?

This reminds me of another bunch of spinning by Dems lately that's annoying
as heck - When the Iraq vote was taken, it's said to be a Repub thing because more of them voted for it than Dems. But now, we get one, just ONE Repub to vote for an Obama bill and it's considered 'Bipartisan'. How the heck does that work?

Fern
 

Sclamoz

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Sep 9, 2009
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Can you point to this support the right had when Romney did it? Or is that just an assumption that since Romney is a republican that all republicans support him, and his policies? I wouldn't have supported it if it had been in my state, just like I don't support it for the country. Not too mention the fines for not having insurance were challenged in court there also. Sorry, "the republicans liked it when republicans did it" dog don't hunt.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Commentary/2006/01/Mitts-Fit
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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Good lord, nothing like exaggeration. :rolleyes:

So some lefty guy makes a case in support of Obama and conservatives are suppose to come running?

The article is weak sauce. So Mitt Romney, the same guy who at that time supported gay marriage and was strongly pro-abortion, was governor of a liberal state whose legislature passed 'Romney Care' and this somehow translates into a HC mandate being strongly supported by Repubs? Are you kidding?

Besides, that article glosses over major points every step of the way. E.g., a big compaint about the HCR is the Medicaid mandate being forced onto states. Any discussion of Romney care is completely irrelevent to that.

I could go on but the article is so weak it isn't worth it.

Fern

Reducing the entire point to Mitt Romney is pretty specious. The core ideas of this bill go back to the republican alternative health care reform from back in the days of Hilcare.

I saw Chuck Grassley being interviewed on this point recently, and when asked why he now thinks a mandate is unconstitutional, he said something like, "gee, we never really thought about whether it was Constitiutional or not back then." How would you assess that answer?

Anyway, the point is that Romneycare wasn't conjured by Mitt Romney out of thin air. It has a long republican pedigree.

While I agree that there are criticisms of aspects of the dems HCL that aren't rooted in republican ideas, that argument is pretty much a smokescreen because many of the core ideas which are now branded as socialist, unconstitutional, and unamerican, were advocated by republicans long before they were ever advocated by democrats.

I personally don't have a problem with republicans being critical of ideas that originated with other republicans, because not everyone in the same political party has to agree on everything. However, I do have a problem with republicans labelling ideas that originated with other republicans in extreme rhetorical terms as has been the case here. It's flagrantly dishonest because it fails to acknowledge the true origin of the ideas, and doesn't reflect the true view of the person who is spewing the rhetoric. If it did, the ideas would have been laballed socialist when they were originally proposed.

Anyone who is seriously going to argue that labelling this bill as socialist and a complete government takeover of the entire healthcare system isn't doing this purely to play politics is beyond hope of objectivety. Remember, you can oppose this bill for all sorts of legitimate reasons without agreeing with those obviously false descriptions of it. There are times when it is appropriate to call out your own side for bullshit, and this is definitely one of those times.

- wolf
 
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Sclamoz

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Sep 9, 2009
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In reading that I don't see where Romney care even has a mandate similar to to the HCR bill. Unless that is an inaccurate description the whole line of discussion is bunk.

Putting money in an interest bearing account that you keep isn't at all like charging a few thousand in a penalty.

Fern

I live in MA and it does. If you don't have insurance you pay a fine, you can read more about it here:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Re...ng-Key-Parts-of-the-Massachusetts-Health-Plan
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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I live in MA and it does. If you don't have insurance you pay a fine, you can read more about it here:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Re...ng-Key-Parts-of-the-Massachusetts-Health-Plan

Thanks.

I noticed this:

The individual "mandate": Under federal law, nearly all hospitals are required to provide a certain level of treatment to all patients who visit their emergency rooms, regardless of those patients' ability to pay. Governor Romney sought a way to prevent the free-rider problem: those who take advantage of emergency services skip out on the charges, leaving taxpayers to cover the bill. Romney proposed that state residents either purchase health insurance or, if they chose not to do so, "self insure" by posting a $10,000 bond that could be put towards the cost of any hospital care they might use but be unable to afford. The Democrat-controlled legislature rejected the Governor's proposal and forced on state residents a different choice: buy health insurance or pay a fine.

So the fine/penalty wasn't even Romney's idea. It was the Democratic controlled legislature.

How the heck can the left claim the fine/mandate was a Repub thing?

Incredible.

Fern
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
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Reducing the entire point to Mitt Romney is pretty specious. The core ideas of this bill go back to the republican alternative health care reform from back in the days of Hilcare.

I saw Chuck Grassley being interviewed on this point recently, and when asked why he now thinks a mandate is unconstitutional, he said something like, "gee, we never really thought about whether it was Constitiutional or not back then." How would you assess that answer?

Anyway, the point is that Romneycare wasn't conjured by Mitt Romney out of thin air. It has a long republican pedigree.

While I agree that there are criticisms of aspects of the dems HCL that aren't rooted in republican ideas, that argument is pretty much a smokescreen because many of the core ideas which are now branded as socialist, unconstitutional, and unamerican, were advocated by republicans long before they were ever advocated by democrats.

I personally don't have a problem with republicans being critical of ideas that originated with other republicans, because not everyone in the same political party has to agree on everything. However, I do have a problem with republicans labelling ideas that originated with other republicans in extreme rhetorical terms as has been the case here. It's flagrantly dishonest because it fails to acknowledge the true origin of the ideas, and doesn't reflect the true view of the person who is spewing the rhetoric. If it did, the ideas would have been laballed socialist when they were originally proposed.

Anyone who is seriously going to argue that labelling this bill as socialist and a complete government takeover of the entire healthcare system isn't doing this purely to play politics is beyond hope of objectivety. Remember, you can oppose this bill for all sorts of legitimate reasons without agreeing with those obviously false descriptions of it. There are times when it is appropriate to call out your own side for bullshit, and this is definitely one of those times.

- wolf

Ok, lets run with your premise (which I don't agree with however). That means that ANY Republican who supports or supported Federal Mandates supports/ed something that is clearly unconstitutional, is big step towards socialism, and goes against the very idea of what is "American".
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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Ok, lets run with your premise (which I don't agree with however). That means that ANY Republican who supports or supported Federal Mandates supports/ed something that is clearly unconstitutional, is big step towards socialism, and goes against the very idea of what is "American".

According to current republican "logic," it could mean that, or more likely, what it really means is that when current republicans claim these things are socialist and/or unamerican, they are quite simply lying because they know very well that the bill is neither of those things, that its core ideas are very centrist ideas which originated with members of their own party.

- wolf
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
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Reducing the entire point to Mitt Romney is pretty specious. The core ideas of this bill go back to the republican alternative health care reform from back in the days of Hilcare.

I saw Chuck Grassley being interviewed on this point recently, and when asked why he now thinks a mandate is unconstitutional, he said something like, "gee, we never really thought about whether it was Constitiutional or not back then." How would you assess that answer?

Anyway, the point is that Romneycare wasn't conjured by Mitt Romney out of thin air. It has a long republican pedigree.

While I agree that there are criticisms of aspects of the dems HCL that aren't rooted in republican ideas, that argument is pretty much a smokescreen because many of the core ideas which are now branded as socialist, unconstitutional, and unamerican, were advocated by republicans long before they were ever advocated by democrats.

I personally don't have a problem with republicans being critical of ideas that originated with other republicans, because not everyone in the same political party has to agree on everything. However, I do have a problem with republicans labelling ideas that originated with other republicans in extreme rhetorical terms as has been the case here. It's flagrantly dishonest because it fails to acknowledge the true origin of the ideas, and doesn't reflect the true view of the person who is spewing the rhetoric. If it did, the ideas would have been laballed socialist when they were originally proposed.

Anyone who is seriously going to argue that labelling this bill as socialist and a complete government takeover of the entire healthcare system isn't doing this purely to play politics is beyond hope of objectivety. Remember, you can oppose this bill for all sorts of legitimate reasons without agreeing with those obviously false descriptions of it. There are times when it is appropriate to call out your own side for bullshit, and this is definitely one of those times.

- wolf

Looks like you're refering to the Dole-Chafee bill.

From what I can see it had support from less than half of the Repubs in the Senate at that time and was soon dropped as it was considered politically unfeasable.

It was replaced with the Republican Dole-Packwood bill which had no mandate and had support from most of the Repub senators.

While I personally doubt it was Repubs who dreamt up the 'mandate' thingy I do acknowledge it was briefly floated in 1993. But to say it had "strong republican support" is clearly erroneous.

In any case, if Republicans come up with a bad idea, which is not an uncommon thing in and of itself, and then drop it, the disingenuous thing is for Dems to later pick it up and claim Repubs are hypocritical when they oppose it (again).

Well, in googling around before hitting reply I found the info below. The origins of the individual mandate:

In fact, says Len Nichols of the New America Foundation, the individual mandate was originally a Republican idea. "It was invented by Mark Pauly to give to George Bush Sr. back in the day, as a competition to the employer mandate focus of the Democrats at the time."

The 'Free-Rider Effect'

Pauly, a conservative health economist at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School, says it wasn't just his idea. Back in the late 1980s — when Democrats were pushing not just a requirement for employers to provide insurance, but also the possibility of a government-sponsored single-payer system — "a group of economists and health policy people, market-oriented, sat down and said, 'Let's see if we can come up with a health reform proposal that would preserve a role for markets but would also achieve universal coverage.' "

The idea of the individual mandate was about the only logical way to get there, Pauly says. That's because even with the most generous subsidies or enticements, "there would always be some Evel Knievels of health insurance, who would decline coverage even if the subsidies were very generous, and even if they could afford it, quote unquote, so if you really wanted to close the gap, that's the step you'd have to take."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123670612

BTW: there are only 4 repub senators left who ever supported, no matter how briefly, the Dole - Chaffee bill with the individual mandate. Forgetting people can change their minds, I suppose one could question those 4. But to criticize all other Republicans for not supporting what about 20 other Repubs did 17 years ago is nonsensical. You'd have to presume today's Republicans would have supported that bill way back then, and there's no basis for that.

Fern
 
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CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
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www.ShawCAD.com
According to current republican "logic," it could mean that, or more likely, what it really means is that when current republicans claim these things are socialist and/or unamerican, they are quite simply lying because they know very well that the bill is neither of those things, that its core ideas are very centrist ideas which originated with members of their own party.

- wolf

How is it "lying"? It most certainly is outside the scope of the powers granted the Federal gov't. It's also a big step towards socialism. It may not be full on socialism but it opens the door quite wide for further abuses. And on the "American" issue - it most certainly is not fit in with the "American" ideals the country was founded upon.
"centrist" :rolleyes: keep trying to make that claim - it just shows warped your view of what "centrist" is. It's not "centrist" in the least.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
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How is it "lying"? It most certainly is outside the scope of the powers granted the Federal gov't. It's also a big step towards socialism. It may not be full on socialism but it opens the door quite wide for further abuses. And on the "American" issue - it most certainly is not fit in with the "American" ideals the country was founded upon.
"centrist" :rolleyes: keep trying to make that claim - it just shows warped your view of what "centrist" is. It's not "centrist" in the least.

You're sidestepping the original thread issue of whose ideas these original were, and why they were never called out as socialist or unamerican when they were proposed by republicans. That is, first and foremost, why it is lying. When you apply a certain label to something and you obviously don't believe that label is true, but are just applying the label for political reasons, that is called lying.

Moving beyond whose ideas these originally were, look at the substance of it. The republicans keep saying the bill is "a complete government takeover of the entire healthcare system" and is "socialist" and "communist." How does that really match up to the actual bill?

The core of this bill, the truly controversial part, is that it supplies tax credits to help 30 million people buy private health insurance. This is why the republicans wouldn't vote for it, because it cost money and required that new taxes be raised. Yet this isn't a new government insurance program. It's a healthcare voucher. It's more or less exactly what Paul Ryan wants to turn Medicare into - a tax credit voucher to go and buy private insurance. Surely that isn't a "government takeover."

The only aspect of the bill that could be called anything like a "government takeover" is the fact that it has government regulating the insurance industry in various ways. But there's a problem here. According to the republicans who attended the healthcare summit, they actually agreed with about 85% of the regulations the dems were proposing, and of course, these regulations (i.e. no denial for pre-existing conditions), are very popular among the American people and not very controversial. So the best case for a so-called "government takeover" is the most popular part of the bill that wasn't even very controversial between the parties.

- wolf