One example of how undocumented workers hurt America

[IronWing]

I love how the estimates of how many folks might be here illegally keeps climbing throughout this thread. Now we're up to maybe 25 million. Is one in every 12 people you meet everyday really an illegal alien? Even the 11-12 million number sounds like a gross over-estimate. Is one in twenty-five people you see everyday an illegal alien. I live in a border town with ~30-40% primary Spanish speakers, I went to one of the immigration reform rallies. I don't think one in twenty five folks at the rally was here illegally let alone one in twenty five folks I meet everyday. At the rate the estimates are rising soon we'll all be illegal aliens.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: ironwing
I love how the estimates of how many folks might be here illegally keeps climbing throughout this thread. Now we're up to maybe 25 million. Is one in every 12 people you meet everyday really an illegal alien? Even the 11-12 million number sounds like a gross over-estimate. Is one in twenty-five people you see everyday an illegal alien. I live in a border town with ~30-40% primary Spanish speakers, I went to one of the immigration reform rallies. I don't think one in twenty five folks at the rally was here illegally let alone one in twenty five folks I meet everyday. At the rate the estimates are rising soon we'll all be illegal aliens.

The estimates are all over the place because NO ONE REALLY KNOWS HOW MANY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE IN AMERICA TODAY.

The estimates I quote are from government sources and private studies I heard quoted on the news. If you have a more accurate number, please share it.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Yeah, I have, estimated 30 million displaced poor farmers thanks to a republican "free-trade globalization scam". Hmmm where they going to go?

It far beyond obvious you can't stand these people as you go on and on trying to make them out as criminals, maybe at first you didn't care but you have crossed that line long ago now into race bashing over a economic situation.

It's pretty sad you lost your cool over a complicated issue, now you backed yourself into the hate corner blinding yourself to the big picture.

What is really lame is you hate on the very people who will be paying for your own social security retirement, the one thing I ask, is what are you expecting to solve by stirring this pot? Revenge? For feeding their families?

You are sounding like a selfish right winger now who forgets how blessed we are in america. And I am quite sure this is exactly where you are getting this crap from.

You're the only one mentioning race. I'm strictly against ANY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS entering or staying on American soil.

 

[Steeplerot]

"government sources and private studies" the same ones you "trust" for the whole story on iraq. Good one.

See part above about becoming right wing blowhard.

Just be honest and say you are now a xenophobic freeper already, I have already shown you where you can look to see if your sources are from known hate groups, yet you all STILL use them as sources that feed your immigrant bashing.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
"government sources and private studies" the same ones you "trust" for the whole story on iraq. Good one.

These are the only numbers available on ILLEGAL immigration. They vary widely. Since there are OVER ONE MILLION ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARRESTED CROSSING THE BORDER EVERY YEAR SINCE bUSH's SPEECH THAT OPENED THE FLOODGATES, I suspect somewhere between 12 and 25 million isn't too far off. Either number is far too high. IMO, ONE ILLEGAL immigrant is far too high a number.

And speaking of questionable numbers, your tactics are questionable as well. First you try to equate a strictly legal problem with racism, now you're trying to equate it to Iraq.

:roll:

Just stop it. The ILLEGAL immigrant invasion has NOTHING to do with race or Iraq.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
"government sources and private studies" the same ones you "trust" for the whole story on iraq. Good one.

These are the only numbers available on ILLEGAL immigration. They vary widely. Since there are OVER ONE MILLION ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARRESTED CROSSING THE BORDER EVERY YEAR SINCE bUSH's SPEECH THAT OPENED THE FLOODGATES, I suspect somewhere between 12 and 25 million isn't too far off. Either number is far too high. IMO, ONE ILLEGAL immigrant is far too high a number.

And speaking of questionable numbers, your tactics are questionable as well. First you try to equate a strictly legal problem with racism, now you're trying to equate it to Iraq.

:roll:

Just stop it. The ILLEGAL immigrant invasion has NOTHING to do with race or Iraq.

We are all concerned about the issue but, legal is a lame excuse everyone sees through except those trying to cower under it to justify their hate, you are not fooling anyone you are beating a dead horse, everyone knows how they got here, "crying over spilled milk" is the term I think..

It is like someone saying "I am not a racist but": (Then lets loose a ni*&^er joke), looks around if someone is offended, then the like minded people start in swapping said jokes and mindset thinking they are fine.

 

[CitizenKain]

Originally posted by: BBond

The estimates I quote are from government sources and private studies I heard quoted on the news. If you have a more accurate number, please share it.

So completely made up then. Got it.

 

[CitizenKain]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: BBond
Why don't we just "fix" all the laws then? Make EVERYTHING legal. Murder -- legal. Rape -- legal. Robbery -- legal. Embezzlement -- legal. Child abuse -- legal. Assault -- legal. Torture -- legal (oops! that one is already legal according to bush).

Because those are real crimes that violate the real rights of people.

When someone's rights are violated a crime has been comitted.

So in your opinion, prostitution isnt a crime? Drug use isnt a crime? Please explain and dig that hole further...

They shouldn't be. Prostitution is illegal because of completely insane puritan laws this country has, and drug use is illegal because prosecuting it is good money.

 

[OFFascist]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
So in your opinion, prostitution isnt a crime? Drug use isnt a crime? Please explain and dig that hole further...

They are obviously crimes since government has seen fit to make them illegal. Hell in some states owning or selling sex toys are a crime.

I dont consider them real crimes though as no one's rights are being violated by any of the above. Its also a waste to try to stop such things as it is basically fighting capitalism and that is a fight that cannot be won.

I would rather see the United States as a net exporter of drugs than a net importer. We could certainly do it with all our agribusiness exertise. If only we got rid of the stupid anti-drug laws our farmers could definately profit off of it.

 

[azazyel]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Full story on link
Unfortunately Washington is a blue state and this is how they are ignoring Federal laws and sticking it to the taxpayers. Of course this is only one instance (medicaid) and one state....how many other instances and states could we reasonably multiply that by?


Seattle PI

Do yourself a favor and get a map of Washington's political affiliations by county. 99% of the illegals are in that big old red half.

 

[ITJunkie]

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: ironwing


So, luck of the draw, eh? Other than being born here, undocumented workers do all the things you listed, except obey the law concerning immigration status because WE WON'T LET THEM; get it? The only thing blocking illegal immigrants and legal status is bad law and bad policy. Fix the law and all those "illegals" become legal and go on with their work growing food for Americans, cleaning American houses, building American houses, and generally doing for Americans as they have been doing, only they would have legal status. Oh, and their employers would start having to pay the taxes they've been stealing from the rest of us. A win-win situation compared to the current situation.

Why don't we just "fix" all the laws then? Make EVERYTHING legal. Murder -- legal. Rape -- legal. Robbery -- legal. Embezzlement -- legal. Child abuse -- legal. Assault -- legal. Torture -- legal (oops! that one is already legal according to bush).

What part of ILLEGAL don't you understand. Don't you realize that a nation that can't control its borders is DOOMED? Don't you realize that giving anyone who can violate our borders and our laws amnesty or legal status will cause MILLIONS MORE to come here? Don't you realize that societies without border control and laws face anarchy?

Your ridiculous prescription to "fix" the ILLEGAL immigration problem is a recipe for disaster. I can't believe you're suggesting such nonsense seriously. It's a parody, right? Like Stephen Colbert, right? Just joking, right?

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

You sir won the lifetime jackpot of having parents that gave birth to you here on the soil of the US of A. If someone else wants to come here to work and be a productive citizen, so be it. If OUR immigration system cannot handle the load of the people being processed, OUR system needs to be fixed to address this issue. The three key issues someone needs to live here, is:

1) Have a clean criminal history (as in no serious violent or sexual crimes)
2) Have the desire to work
3) Pay taxes

If someone is willing to work, then I fully support them coming here. There are plenty of Americans that absolutely will not practice at least one of those very cruical elements. American citizens commit crimes, whether it be violent, sexual, or otherwise all the time. Where's the outrage there? Toss them in jail, hope for reform, and turn a blind eye to the problems that already exist? Trying to lump murder, rape, and robbery into the same category as illegal immigration is about as asinine as one can get. Those laws are based about societies moral standpoint. Those are things protected to the owner, as they are theirs to give away only. You cannot murder or rape, because you do not own another person, at least in our society. Robbery is tied into basic property value, again here you do not own anothers property. Citizenship, is something that should be given freely. People I'm sure will laugh at this, trying to conjur up september 11th 2001. To which I can easily respond, prior to that date who where the biggest "terrorists" in the US? Americans. Your lovely born in the US, schooled in the US, and working in the US citizen. The fact is you will never be able to weed out the undesirables of society until they act on their urges, the way our criminal justice system works. We don't have Thought Police, and we never should.

On jobs...Oh for the love of crimminy you are stealing jobs by coming here... If you have the desire to work and do a job that garners attention so you keep it and the "other" guy is cut loose, it means you *deserve* it because you *worked* for it. If you are lazy and want a free ride through life, expect to have your job outsourced, or you position given to another person. EXPECT IT...don't be suprised. If you have determination, you will find a job that pays well. Don't try to blame immigrants, legal or otherwise on the changing of jobs between hands.

The person...not the goverment...not the corporation is responsible for their *own* well being. If you do not perform as well or better than the next guy, you will go nowhere in life. On this, with a high school education mind you. I started working fast food. I got screwed around on hours so I quit. I joined up filing tax paper work, but again got screwed on hours so I quit again. I was fed up with part time minimum wage jobs, so I joined the military. Got some good technical training, to which I left after my enlistement was up and now make nearly six figures. With a high school education. Determination my friend, it will get you *everywhere* in life. Did I blame some guy crossing the border for my lack of opportunity at the start? Nope, and that's why I'm where I'm at today.

I would more rather go after the tax cheats who pay undocumented workers sub par wages just to line their *own US CITIZEN* pockets, then pay a normal wage to the people that want to work for them. The immigrant seeks employment to better themselves, while the tax cheat employeers are actively stealing money from the government. The immigrants, illegal or legal want to be here for a reason. If that reason is to seek a better life for themselves and their families, let them do so. If someone came to me and started to make my life a pain in the rear (which someone did in the military, the sole reason of why I left) I would leave and start new somewhere else(which I did). I don't see anyone hampering your efforts, just because you won a lifetime jackpot of being born here.

Well said...in some parts

This debate is becoming much like an abortion debate...both sides entrenched to the point that logic and perspective are impossible to come by.

We are a country of immigrants. To the native americans already here when we arrived, we were "illegal". I understand their want/need to make a better life for themselves and I begrudge them nothing for that. But is it too much to ask that they follow the same procedure that millions before them followed?

 

[blackangst1]

^^^^ No, the difference is those who are FOR illegal immigration justify their belief because they dont think the law itself is a good one. Period. They ignore the fact it IS law. At least with abortion we can get some moral and religious debates going. This is simply chossing to ignore the law because they think it is archaic, or whatever.

 

[Slickone]

This post by Charlie Daniels seems to be going around in email. Someone sent it to me today.

Also, this thread seems similar to this AT thread.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
^^^^ No, the difference is those who are FOR illegal immigration justify their belief because they dont think the law itself is a good one. Period. They ignore the fact it IS law. At least with abortion we can get some moral and religious debates going. This is simply chossing to ignore the law because they think it is archaic, or whatever.

Blackangst did you check the link I provided? The very same Act you reference in your signature has been REPEALED. As in no longer an applicable law. In 1986 we granted amnesty to "workers" in the US prior to 1982. That would mean every then Illegal immigrant that entered into the US prior to 1982 was then a LEGAL citizen. How do you stand on that? One day it's "Illegal" the next it is completely 100% "legal". Do you not see the similiarities of what is happening today? We granted amnesty because we knew the best way to get rid of "illegals" was to give them citizenship as they've passed the test of people trying to become productive citizens.

Stop trying to hide behind the law is the law mentality when obvious changes were made to prior immigration acts. It is bewildering how people can take that stance and not see the changes the US has had to make to overcome those short-sighted mistakes. Read the history of immigration acts, and please understand why most of them have been repealed or replaced with different legislation down the road.

Originally posted by: ITJunkie

Well said...in some parts

This debate is becoming much like an abortion debate...both sides entrenched to the point that logic and perspective are impossible to come by.

We are a country of immigrants. To the native americans already here when we arrived, we were "illegal". I understand their want/need to make a better life for themselves and I begrudge them nothing for that. But is it too much to ask that they follow the same procedure that millions before them followed?

Well in so much as some of the topics being brought forth have practically no relationship as a root cause to illegal immigration. Like employment and overcrowding for instance. I explained to my wife if for some strange reason if every "US Citizen" moved to Florida, Florida would be collapse under the lack of infrastructure. There wouldn't be enough jobs, housing, or food to support the influx of people. Though we don't move to places we don't want to go, unless it is a compromise. Typically for work or family related purposes. If there is a "desirable" place to be, you pay a premium for living there. There is no law that forces you to live anywhere, which allows anyone to move away from overcrowding. Now on that side of the coin you would expect employment opportunities to not be readily available as in populous areas.

When immigrants come to the US, like they've done since the start, we've had a sorted history of protectionist type legislation enacted. Over time people have realized that it was out of fear that these "laws" were put into place. Being such we've gotten rid of them. The power of fear is a powerful tool when drumming up support for legislation. Fear of *your* job being lost, fear of having to move, fear of not being able to support yourself or your family. People focus on the negative, when I saw how many brillant minds will be turned away? How many hard laborers will be held back at the borders? I want those people here, because they feel they can do better for themselves by being here. I welcome every opportunity for these people to come and excel. Of course with the good you must take the bad, but that will *always* exist. Trying to put the illusion of a criminal mentality to those who seek naturalization is disingenuous. No more than you could make a stereotype of current Citizens being in the same boat.


edit:

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: blackangst1
^^^^ No, the difference is those who are FOR illegal immigration justify their belief because they dont think the law itself is a good one. Period. They ignore the fact it IS law. At least with abortion we can get some moral and religious debates going. This is simply chossing to ignore the law because they think it is archaic, or whatever.

Blackangst did you check the link I provided? The very same Act you reference in your signature has been REPEALED. As in no longer an applicable law. In 1986 we granted amnesty to "workers" in the US prior to 1982. That would mean every then Illegal immigrant that entered into the US prior to 1982 was then a LEGAL citizen. How do you stand on that? One day it's "Illegal" the next it is completely 100% "legal". Do you not see the similiarities of what is happening today? We granted amnesty because we knew the best way to get rid of "illegals" was to give them citizenship as they've passed the test of people trying to become productive citizens.

Stop trying to hide behind the law is the law mentality when obvious changes were made to prior immigration acts. It is bewildering how people can take that stance and not see the changes the US has had to make to overcome those short-sighted mistakes. Read the history of immigration acts, and please understand why most of them have been repealed or replaced with different legislation down the road.

heh the law was not repealed you dolt. The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 just granted amnesty to the illegals already here (sound familiar?) It did not repeal the 1924 law. Keep reading partner.

The Immigration and Nationality Services Act of 1965 abolished the quotas setup by the 1924 act.

and FYI

re·peal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-pl)
tr.v. re·pealed, re·peal·ing, re·peals
To revoke or rescind, especially by an official or formal act.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: blackangst1
^^^^ No, the difference is those who are FOR illegal immigration justify their belief because they dont think the law itself is a good one. Period. They ignore the fact it IS law. At least with abortion we can get some moral and religious debates going. This is simply chossing to ignore the law because they think it is archaic, or whatever.

Blackangst did you check the link I provided? The very same Act you reference in your signature has been REPEALED. As in no longer an applicable law. In 1986 we granted amnesty to "workers" in the US prior to 1982. That would mean every then Illegal immigrant that entered into the US prior to 1982 was then a LEGAL citizen. How do you stand on that? One day it's "Illegal" the next it is completely 100% "legal". Do you not see the similiarities of what is happening today? We granted amnesty because we knew the best way to get rid of "illegals" was to give them citizenship as they've passed the test of people trying to become productive citizens.

Stop trying to hide behind the law is the law mentality when obvious changes were made to prior immigration acts. It is bewildering how people can take that stance and not see the changes the US has had to make to overcome those short-sighted mistakes. Read the history of immigration acts, and please understand why most of them have been repealed or replaced with different legislation down the road.

heh the law was not repealed you dolt. The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 just granted amnesty to the illegals already here (sound familiar?) It did not repeal the 1924 law. Keep reading partner.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: blackangst1
^^^^ No, the difference is those who are FOR illegal immigration justify their belief because they dont think the law itself is a good one. Period. They ignore the fact it IS law. At least with abortion we can get some moral and religious debates going. This is simply chossing to ignore the law because they think it is archaic, or whatever.

Blackangst did you check the link I provided? The very same Act you reference in your signature has been REPEALED. As in no longer an applicable law. In 1986 we granted amnesty to "workers" in the US prior to 1982. That would mean every then Illegal immigrant that entered into the US prior to 1982 was then a LEGAL citizen. How do you stand on that? One day it's "Illegal" the next it is completely 100% "legal". Do you not see the similiarities of what is happening today? We granted amnesty because we knew the best way to get rid of "illegals" was to give them citizenship as they've passed the test of people trying to become productive citizens.

Stop trying to hide behind the law is the law mentality when obvious changes were made to prior immigration acts. It is bewildering how people can take that stance and not see the changes the US has had to make to overcome those short-sighted mistakes. Read the history of immigration acts, and please understand why most of them have been repealed or replaced with different legislation down the road.

heh the law was not repealed you dolt. The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 just granted amnesty to the illegals already here (sound familiar?) It did not repeal the 1924 law. Keep reading partner.

You also do know that the 1921/24 immigration act was put together by Klansmen in the height of the KKKs power in the 20s trying to keep our white heritige, thus we suddenly had caps on immigrants?

(No immigrant stood in any line to get into this country before the 20's -except chinese slave laborers who were far too "foreign")

Ok good.

That immigration act is historiclly very racist and considered all but western europeans "lesser" trying to keep mexicans, italians and central europeans out, that is not a good point to bring up lest you get called straight up racist klansmen, becasue this is where our concept of a cap that are keeping mexicans from coming in stems from.

 

[blackangst1]

Oh, now you pull up the race card again? OK lemme get this straight. If I quote a law on our books that was spawned from racists, I am a racist? You do realize most of our founding fathers were racist and elitist, right? So, I guess you dont support our constitution because it was drawn up by racist, elitist pigs. Right?

 

[Steeplerot]

You are the one race bashing a people saying they are criminals and undesireables using a old KKK law to prove your point. :laugh: Just pointing out why people say you all are xenophobes and bigots, you should get the whole picture before you make a total ass out of yourself, I am sure you do not want to be assosiated with such a group, oops...look at your sig. :shocked:

Maybe you do, it seems the rallying cry is why can't we all speak our minds and be bigots and un-pc.

I am sure any klansmen will tell you they are not racist, but they all have an excuse and others opinions are just people being "weak".

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
You are the one race bashing a people saying they are criminals and undesireables using a old KKK law to prove your point. :laugh: Just pointing out why people say you all are xenophobes and bigots, you should get the whole picture.

Er...I thought racism was bigotry against a race of people?

I am against illegal immigration. Not illegal <insert race here>. Quit twisting my words.

 

[Steeplerot]

The illegal thing is the problem with your arguement on not trying to be labeled a racist, many people have pointed out why a law as a morality is a invalid arguement, yet you just know it's ok to feel that way, right? Even though logiclly the illegal thing makes no sense you hold that as your protection, ahh the emperor wears no clothes. ('cept that hood)

I do not know you and you may very well be mad at a conceived stealing of something here, but you are using one of the greatest victories in the KKKs history as proof in your case you are making. And it doesent fly.

 

[BoomerD]

Y'know, it REALLY doesn't matter if it's a KKK inspired law or not, it IS the law of the land...a REAL law...written in law books and everything!!!
If your beloved illegals want to come here, they need to do it by the book...according to the letter of the law...never fvcking mind whether I drive over the speed limit or not, as is often one of the bullshit distractors you bring up, they are from a foreign country, they need to obey the laws of THIS counrty, and be glad we don't use the same laws and tactics, their country does with it's illegals...
Maybe you need to move there, since you seem to hate America so much...Geez, if you hated the good old USA anymore, I'd think you were a Bushbot Repuke.

 

[imported_sling]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
You are the one race bashing a people saying they are criminals and undesireables using a old KKK law to prove your point. :laugh: Just pointing out why people say you all are xenophobes and bigots, you should get the whole picture before you make a total ass out of yourself, I am sure you do not want to be assosiated with such a group, oops...look at your sig. :shocked:

Maybe you do, it seems the rallying cry is why can't we all speak our minds and be bigots and un-pc.

I am sure any klansmen will tell you they are not racist, but they all have an excuse and others opinions are just people being "weak".

Please put the .45 back in your mouth. The "KKK" law? I don't think that the KKK was in the minds of lawmakers when they wrote that. Maybe I'm wrong....but I'm not.

 

[Steeplerot]

And it is the law of the land you cannot get blown by your wife in alabama or somewhere, a REAL law...written in law books and everything!!! ? Your point?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
The illegal thing is the problem with your arguement on not trying to be labeled a racist, many people have pointed out why a law as a morality is a invalid arguement, yet you just know it's ok to feel that way, right? Even though logiclly the illegal thing makes no sense you hold that as your protection, ahh the emperor wears no clothes. ('cept that hood)

I do not know you and you may very well be mad at a conceived stealing of something here, but you are using one of the greatest victories in the KKKs history as proof in your case you are making. And it doesent fly.

WTF? LOL

I dont have any "moral" objection to illegals...you are once again 1. twisting my words, and 2. putting words in my mouth. I mean exactly what I say. I am against illigal immigrants. Regardless from whence they came.

And I will ask you again: do you support our Constitution, even though it was written by racist elitists?

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: sling

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
You are the one race bashing a people saying they are criminals and undesireables using a old KKK law to prove your point. :laugh: Just pointing out why people say you all are xenophobes and bigots, you should get the whole picture before you make a total ass out of yourself, I am sure you do not want to be assosiated with such a group, oops...look at your sig. :shocked:

Maybe you do, it seems the rallying cry is why can't we all speak our minds and be bigots and un-pc.

I am sure any klansmen will tell you they are not racist, but they all have an excuse and others opinions are just people being "weak".

Please put the .45 back in your mouth. The "KKK" law? I don't think that the KKK was in the minds of lawmakers when they wrote that. Maybe I'm wrong....but I'm not.

Yes, quite a few people who drafted the quota act were klansmen, they were very popular in the 20's, there was a big report drawn up for congress and submitted along with the bill with "scientific evidence" showing other races were inferior thus we must stem the flow of immigrants.

Are you surprised? this was an era of jim crow laws, segregation, heck, even women were just getting a few civil rights.

The "They will destroy our economy, eat our taxes" crowd are the same crowd who whined up a storm every time we get new americans, times may change but ignorance doesent.