Once Upon a Time in Afghanistan...

[Orignal Earl]

I spotted this at the bottom of a video posted in OT, and just felt it needed to be posted here. I was going to search around and quote one of the dozens of posters who constantly say Afghanistan always was and always will be a shithole run by barbarians. But just got lazy and went with this.

On a recent trip to Afghanistan, British Defense Secretary Liam Fox drew fire for calling it "a broken 13th-century country." The most common objection was not that he was wrong, but that he was overly blunt. He's hardly the first Westerner to label Afghanistan as medieval. Former Blackwater CEO Erik Prince recently described the country as inhabited by "barbarians" with "a 1200 A.D. mentality." Many assume that's all Afghanistan has ever been -- an ungovernable land where chaos is carved into the hills. Given the images people see on TV and the headlines written about Afghanistan over the past three decades of war, many conclude the country never made it out of the Middle Ages.

But that is not the Afghanistan I remember. I grew up in Kabul in the 1950s and '60s. When I was in middle school, I remember that on one visit to a city market, I bought a photobook about the country published by Afghanistan's planning ministry. Most of the images dated from the 1950s. I had largely forgotten about that book until recently; I left Afghanistan in 1968 on a U.S.-funded scholarship to study at the American University of Beirut, and subsequently worked in the Middle East and now the United States. But recently, I decided to seek out another copy. Stirred by the fact that news portrayals of the country's history didn't mesh with my own memories, I wanted to discover the truth. Through a colleague, I received a copy of the book and recognized it as a time capsule of the Afghanistan I had once known -- perhaps a little airbrushed by government officials, but a far more realistic picture of my homeland than one often sees today.

A half-century ago, Afghan women pursued careers in medicine; men and women mingled casually at movie theaters and university campuses in Kabul; factories in the suburbs churned out textiles and other goods. There was a tradition of law and order, and a government capable of undertaking large national infrastructure projects, like building hydropower stations and roads, albeit with outside help. Ordinary people had a sense of hope, a belief that education could open opportunities for all, a conviction that a bright future lay ahead. All that has been destroyed by three decades of war, but it was real.

The pictures look like anywhere USA during the same time

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/05/27/once_upon_a_time_in_afghanistan

 

[waggy]

sad to see how far they have fallen.

 

[Orignal Earl]

sad to see how far they have fallen.

And yet they were Muslim then and are Muslim now. It kind of reminds me of how alot of people want the US to go back to the 50's again

 

[William Gaatjes]

Nothing to do with being muslim. You can be fundamental trash or a modern human bing with a religion or a philosophy of life. The fundamentalists also known as mujahideen took over. And from who did they get help ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan



Now what is strange here is that the muhadijen is responsible for killing American people from the US in Iran. Yet in afghanistan the muhadijeen is supported by the US to fight of the Russian invasion of the USSR in Afghanistan. Why ? ^_^


The person claimed :
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/05/27/once_upon_a_time_in_afghanistan?page=0,8

Afghanistan once had Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. In the 1950s and '60s, such programs were very similar to their counterparts in the United States, with students in elementary and middle schools learning about nature trails, camping, and public safety. But scouting troops disappeared entirely after the Soviet invasions in the late 1970s.

To side step for a second :

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/mohammad_rezashah/mohammad_rezashah.php

It seemed that Iran was not against Germany and as such measures where taken against Iran by the UK and the USSR during the 1940s. During the 1950s, 1960s, internal policy conflicts in Iran between the shah Mohammed Reza and religious leaders caused division and uproar. The exhiled Ayatollah Khomeini started an movement with an islamitic bias against the shah. Using the religious background of the people to create a common ground. Using again mass psychology : "He befouls the Islam and our great prophet !". We all know what kind of effect that has.


http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/india/iran1978.htm

The Islamic republic... Revolution of 1978-79... The sense that in both the agricultural and industrial spheres too much had been attempted too rapidly and that mistakes had been made and expectations disappointed was manifested in demonstrations against the government in 1978; many people were killed, and martial law was imposed in the major cities in September. This ended the relaxation of government controls, begun in 1977, that had encouraged protests and that had led to the emergence of religious activists allied with extremist "Dedicated Fighter" groups, the Mujahedin; these groups were opposed to the influx of foreigners, particularly Americans, and to a westernization they saw as threatening to those traditional values subsumed under the cloak of Shi'ite Islam.

Why do i do the side stepping ?
It was all during the same time frame...
What was the political policy in the US, the USSR, and the UK ?
The biggest influence.

 

[William Gaatjes]

A bit biased :
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-140756878294549745#

In reality it was the internal struggle of the muhadijen and the marxist government (supported by the USSR).

I looked up a bit of history in my collection :

In 1919 Afghanistan became independent from Great Britain.

Nadir Shah became ruler from 1929 until 1933 when he was shot.
Zahir Shah (the son) became ruler(king) from 1933 - 1973.
During this time Afghanistan was considered an peaceful land. And the photo's are from this time period.

Muhammad Dawud Khan, the nephew of Zahir had plans to overtrow Zahir and to become the president of Afghanistan. Khan needed support and got this support from the Soviets after the US turned him down.
In 1978 Khan performed a coup with the help of the soviets and the Afghan army. In that same year Khan was killed by members of the people democratic party of Afghanistan, the PDPA. And the land is controlled by the communist revolutionary council.

Abdul Qadir, a member of the military Afghan council becomes the sitting ruler.
The muhadijen now rise up against the current ruler.

Nur Muhammad Taraki became leader for one year after being killed by his own party members of the PDPA in 1978 to 1979.

Hafizullah Amin was president for 2 months up till the end of 1979.
It seemed he was killed by soviet spetznatz troops linked to the KGB.

Babrak Karmal became the sitting president during the soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The soviet invasion was to keep the fundamental islam muhadijen out of Afghanistan. The soviets wanted a communistic reign for Afghanistan. Which is not that strange, during the period of Zahir shah, the soviet helped Afghanistan a lot. I guess they wanted to keep the peace in Afghanistan once again by promoting the Marxist view and philosophy. At all they wanted to create stability. This afcourse was not going to happen because the US sold anti aircraft weapons to the muhadijen. The money the US received for the weapons was earned by selling opium money. A lot of US dollars made during that time of selling weaponry where Afghan opium dollars.
The muhadijen needed money and sold drugs, women, everything to get money to buy from the US.

In 1986 Gorbatsjov ended the soviet invasion. The USSR material was far more powerful then the copied AK-47s but not suited against small groups of people with anti aircraft weapons(sold by the US).

beloved patriot Mohammad Chamkani was interim president for a few months between 1986 to 1987.

In 1987 Mohammad Najibullah became the new president of Afghanistan.
Babrak Karmal left for a peaceful life in Moscow.

A bloody war started and the muhadijen where screaming victory in 1992.
Najibullah fled to a UN building. In 1996 he was together with his brother murdered by the Taliban.

Abdul Rahim Hatef : President for a few days.

Sibghatullah Mojaddedi : president for the islamic republic of Afghanistan for a few months.

Burhanuddin Rabbani became the new ruler between 1992 to 1996.

Mullah Mohammad Omar Became the new taliban emir from 1996 to 2001.

During all these time periods, the land of Afghanistan become more split apart with separate fractions where all warlords wanted to become rulers. The country and the people are torn apart, pain suffering and hate seems to be normal.

Attacks of 2001 on the twin towers. The US and the UK decide to attack the taliban in Afghanistan. The US and the UK did not wanted to make the same mistake as the USSR and helped the warlords fight the taliban. The warlords attacked the taliban on the ground and the US and the UK gave air support.

Burhanuddin Rabbani was president of Afghanistan for 5 weeks by the end of the year 2001.

Hamid Karzai became the new president. Hamid Karzai is called by many as a puppet of Bush and in particular Cheney. In reality, he is a descendant from a i assume political influential and rich family who was always very supportive of Zahir Shah. The ruler when Afghanistan was peaceful and the picture come from that same time period. Afcourse rich mingles with the rich and that is where the connections are becoming visible.

The Bonn agreement was signed. The taliban however would start to fight again in 2005. From 2005 to current day is recent history.
Now all of you know why soldiers where send to Afghanistan.

EDIT:
It is hindsight but if the USSR was left alone and the muhadijen was not helped, the twin towers would probably never have been attacked... And afghanistan would now more be a country similar as any western country.
Karma ?
/EDIT:


Fast forward :
Today in the Afghan war we again see the same situation of farming opium on a large scale while not farming food. Yes, not enough food but enough opium. Kind of sucks does it not...
Imaging growing food where all the opium is grown now ... No lack of food. No terminator seeds needed. No dope flooding the planet.

 

[jackschmittusa]

I seem to remember the U.S giving the weapons away, not selling them.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I seem to remember the U.S giving the weapons away, not selling them.

In my opinion :
It is a business strategy. First you give away a limited amount of samples. Then you sell the product. A great strategy it is because it is the best form of marketing as long as you clearly state that you give a limited amount of samples away.

It is just very morally wrong for weapons and addictive drugs or addictive medicines. But great for food, electronic parts, non alcoholic drinks, clothes and music. Because it is free mouth to mouth commercials. Far more effective then whining tv commercials. If the money for marketing departments would be used to give more free samples away. Life would be a lot easier.


A link for this book :

Robert Fisk, Great war for civilization.

http://www.amazon.com/Great-War-Civilisation-Conquest-Middle/dp/1400041511

 

[Orignal Earl]

Now what is strange here is that the muhadijen is responsible for killing American people from the US in Iran. Yet in afghanistan the muhadijeen is supported by the US to fight of the Russian invasion of the USSR in Afghanistan. Why ? ^_^

From what I can gather, Mujaheddin means freedom fighter and is used by lots of different groups. The Mujahideen that was in Iran has nothing to do with the ones in Afghanistan. And I can't find anything about the Iranian ones killing Americans. MAK is considered a terrorist group by the current Iranian goverment.

The rest of your post is pretty mixed up too.

 

[William Gaatjes]

From what I can gather, Mujaheddin means freedom fighter and is used by lots of different groups. The Mujahideen that was in Iran has nothing to do with the ones in Afghanistan. And I can't find anything about the Iranian ones killing Americans. MAK is considered a terrorist group by the current Iranian goverment.

The rest of your post is pretty mixed up too.

Well, i used different sources and non are US based. Maybe there can the difference be found. I have noticed many connections which is strange when thinking of the 2 large streams of Islam...

From what i have learned Mujahedin means holy warrior. A warrior for the Jihad.

And yes, under Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan the US supported them together with (what a surprise) Saudi Arabia and Pakistan(territorial i think).
Reagan called them freedom warriors. But in effect they where just warriors and more realistic holy warriors against the enemy , in this case the soviet beast.

And the MAK also known as Maktab al Khadamat was an office created by Osama bin Laden.
The MAK was used to fund the mujahedin with money and weapons from the US. Although the local warlords did had to sell opium to get weapons.
And Osama bin Laden is an Saudi and not from Iran.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Well, i used different sources and non are US based. Maybe there can the difference be found. I have noticed many connections which is strange when thinking of the 2 large streams of Islam...

Here you go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen

One of the connections you can see, but probably won't like was US support and what that eventually led too.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Here you go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen

One of the connections you can see, but probably won't like was US support and what that eventually led too.

You might want to do some research to other sites. The US wikipedia is not always that accurate i have discovered. Facts are left out, translations are wrong :

Here is for example the dutch version of the same wikipedia page. But i have run it to the google translator :

http://translate.google.com/transla...37;2Fnl.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki/Moedjahedien

I clicked the links they did work. Now the dutch no longer seem to work.
I think you have to manually select the dutch and german websites and run them through google translate yourself.

SOLUTION :

http://translate.google.com/transla...n&u=http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moedjahedien

The quote works. I assume it is an parsing error in the forum.


Here you have the German version translated :

http://translate.google.com/transla.../de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudschahid&sl=de&tl=en

 

[Orignal Earl]

The US wikipedia is not always that accurate i have discovered. Facts are left out, translations are wrong

You can go ahead and fix anything you find wrong and cite your sources and see if they hold up to the scrutiny.

But i have run it to the google translator

That may be part of the problem right there

 

[William Gaatjes]

You can go ahead and fix anything you find wrong and cite your sources and see if they hold up to the scrutiny.




That may be part of the problem right there

Actually no. I can read Dutch and German as well besides English. As such i translated it for you and not for me ^_^

You ever heard of the reagan doctrine ?

http://translate.google.com/transla....org/wiki/Reagan-doctrine&sl=nl&tl=en&act=url

The Reagan Doctrine was the name for the strategy that the United States during the presidency of Ronald Reagan performed and which sought the influence of the Soviet Union to scale by supporting anti- communist guerrilla movements in the Soviet satellite states. This strategy was a response to the Brezhnev doctrine .

The Reagan Doctrine was proclaimed in the State of the Union speech that Reagan in 1985 did the U.S. Congress . Reagan said in this speech: "We must not break faith with Those Who are risking Their Lives ... On Every continent, from Afghanistan to Nicaragua ... to Defy Soviet aggression and secure rights Which Have Been ours from birth. Support for freedom fighters is self-defense. "The doctrine is named after journalist Charles Krauthammer who first used the term.

The assistance that the U.S. gave to anti-communist movements have included the Contras or Freedom Fighters as Reagan called them, in Nicaragua , the Mudjahedeen in Afghanistan and UNITA in Angola . The strength of the strategy lay in the relatively low cost of supporting guerrilla movements without direct use of American troops against the high costs of the Soviet Union had to muster the support of communist governments in those countries.

U.S. support was also significant to the loss of the Sandinista National Liberation Front (FSLN) in the elections in Nicaragua and the failure of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan and proponents of the doctrine that it has contributed to the eventual collapse of the Soviet Empire the end of the Cold War in 1991 . Critics argue that the doctrine among others, contributed to the growth of terrorist groups in Afghanistan as Al Qaeda .

What was the Brezhnev doctrine ?
( I had to look this up )
Well Leonid Brezhnev of the soviets had the opinion that the USSR had the power to intervene in any communistic nation if the communistic government of that nation was to be threatened...

 

[Orignal Earl]

You ever heard of the reagan doctrine ?

Yes...it was fail

 

[spittledip]

Well, whatever happened, I think we can all agree that the combined efforts of the US and USSR helped to undermine the stability of this country.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Well, whatever happened, I think we can all agree that the combined efforts of the US and USSR helped to undermine the stability of this country.

True that

 

[William Gaatjes]

Well, whatever happened, I think we can all agree that the combined efforts of the US and USSR helped to undermine the stability of this country.

I fully agree and would extend that even more. The fear of US and the USSR for each other has caused suffering on many continents. Let us just learn from it and no longer make the same mistake.
And let us teach the others to not make our mistakes.

Let lessons learned from history be your guide to the future...

The one who only sees the past is blind for the future...

The one who ignores the past is bound to make the same mistakes again in the future...

The one who lives in the past ignores the future and the present...

The one who carries hatred in the heart has no room for love in that heart...

 

[Lemon law]

In terms of telling the difference between a terrorists and a freedom fighter, we must understand that a freedom fighter is a terrorist aided by the USA.

Of course, under the enemy of my enemy is my friend doctrine, if a freedom fighter ever turns against the USA, the USA gets mean and takes their freedom fighter title away from them.