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On Socialism in the wake of AOC, Bernie etc.

cytg111

cytg111

Lifer
I mean its not *really* socialism is it? I know Scandinavian countries are being portrayed as socialists countries in the US, but are they really?
If you take an actual look at the inner workings of those *democracies* you will find that they have

1. capitalist market economy.
2. socialist welfare state
3. economic redistribution
4. democracies with checks and balances.

Where in the world is it easiest to get rich?


So why this opposition to this model of "socialism". My deduction skills can only arrive at this conclusion : It is campaigned by those *already* rich and dont want to partake in number 3. Nothing more nothing less.

Right? 🙂.
 
Better not link any economic mobility statistics or the Muricans will realize that your best bet to achieve the "american dream" is to move to Europe.
 
ecogen said:
Better not link any economic mobility statistics or the Muricans will realize that your best bet to achieve the "american dream" is to move to Europe.
Click to expand...

Its actually covered in the TED talk linked ...

Shit, do we have to build a wall now? 😉.
 
Socialism is linked to Communism in the US and is an evil to be denied. It's bullshit of course but it allows control, an opiate of the masses in the sense that as long as leader create demons then hunt the non-existant, then people are satisfied.

The utility of AOC or Bernie would not be in putting socialist policies in place but raise awareness and being a cattle prod for those who embrace "business as usual". It's absolutely what we need and an adaptation of some European policies can be made to fit our ways.
 
cytg111 said:
Its actually covered in the TED talk linked ...

Shit, do we have to build a wall now? 😉.
Click to expand...

Oh was it? My bad, it's late and I didn't really watch it coz I'm about to fall asleep.

Perhaps we do, but we need to make them pay for it.
 
The Norwegian government owns something like 40% of the GDP because they own so many companies (privately and via their Oslo stock exchange), so there is a lot of public ownership of the means of production.
 
Phokus said:
The Norwegian government owns something like 40% of the GDP because they own so many companies (privately and via their Oslo stock exchange), so there is a lot of public ownership of the means of production.
Click to expand...
From what I read the Scandinavian counties are fairly well run. Any truth to this?
 
cytg111 said:
I mean its not *really* socialism is it?
Click to expand...

Public ownership and control over production, little to no private property?
Bull!@#$. The term socialism has been abused and rendered inert. Their use of it has no meaning. They may as well say "other".

They cry and whine over taxation, but that is not the same as control / elimination of private property. The economy has a disease of trending towards slave wages. Balance can only be maintained through a strong safety net. A huge one already exists today, but it is a patchwork of strings and holes with people falling through and being left behind all the time. We fail our people by not "being there" for them. Without a better solution to prevent Lootocracy.

Solving a inherent flaw in Capitalism does not make us Socialists or Communists. The true champions of Capitalism are the ones who want to see it thrive and work for everyone. Market solutions are fine, but they cannot stand alone. Over time, history has shown us that having no government is as fatal as having no market. The two opposing forces must work together if we intend to survive as a people.

I am a Capitalist who stands for Bernie Sanders and the progressive wing of the Democrat Party.
 
cytg111 said:
Its actually covered in the TED talk linked ...

Shit, do we have to build a wall now? 😉.
Click to expand...

No worries, most of us peasants wouldn't be able to afford to move over there.
Then you have the purposefully dumb ones that wouldn't, well because 'murica.
 
cytg111 said:
I mean its not *really* socialism is it? I know Scandinavian countries are being portrayed as socialists countries in the US, but are they really?
If you take an actual look at the inner workings of those *democracies* you will find that they have

1. capitalist market economy.
2. socialist welfare state
3. economic redistribution
4. democracies with checks and balances.

Where in the world is it easiest to get rich?


So why this opposition to this model of "socialism". My deduction skills can only arrive at this conclusion : It is campaigned by those *already* rich and dont want to partake in number 3. Nothing more nothing less.

Right? 🙂.
Click to expand...
The Nordic coutries demonstrate that 1, 2 and 3 need not be in conflict. Capitalism can support both a meritocracy and social safety nets. One of the reasons I support Sanders is because he advocates for the European model.
 
"Socialism" is just the latest curse word thrown about by ignorant fear mongers.

We shouldn't be afraid to look at other countries and see what works (and what doesn't).

Personally, with human nature being what it is, "we" are always going to need a strong structure around us to avoid chaos. Libertarianism is just swell for a frontier village of 50. If government isn't going to provide that structure, *something* will...warlords, corporations, whatever. I prefer to at least have a semblance in a say to what that structure is doing via elections....while I don't "trust" government (nor should anyone, they are OUR servants), I certainly trust corporations far less to do anything beneficial for regular people.

The rich of course prosper in any system.
 
Stokely said:
"Socialism" is just the latest curse word thrown about by ignorant fear mongers.

We shouldn't be afraid to look at other countries and see what works (and what doesn't).

Personally, with human nature being what it is, "we" are always going to need a strong structure around us to avoid chaos. Libertarianism is just swell for a frontier village of 50. If government isn't going to provide that structure, *something* will...warlords, corporations, whatever. I prefer to at least have a semblance in a say to what that structure is doing via elections....while I don't "trust" government (nor should anyone, they are OUR servants), I certainly trust corporations far less to do anything beneficial for regular people.

The rich of course prosper in any system.
Click to expand...

Latest? The GOP has intertwined the word socialism to mean communism to their base and have been doing so for decades. They are too dumb to realize they are not one and the same. They are also too dumb to realize how much socialism we have in the US that they love. Yes..they are that stupid.
 
soulcougher73 said:
Latest? The GOP has intertwined the word socialism to mean communism to their base and have been doing so for decades. They are too dumb to realize they are not one and the same. They are also too dumb to realize how much socialism we have in the US that they love. Yes..they are that stupid.
Click to expand...

And that's exactly how the GOP leadership likes'um. They are stupid enough to not know they're that way. The GOP gives their constituents a list of folks that they should focus all their attention on and really really hate on them, all while these leaders of theirs pick their pockets, attempt to take away their Medicare and Social Security and force them to pay ever higher rates for their medical insurance. And for some odd reason those constituents of theirs don't seem to care at all that their leaders are laughing their asses off at them for the simpleton fools that they are.

That pretty much fits the definition of the word in Merrriam's defining book.
 
soulcougher73 said:
Latest? The GOP has intertwined the word socialism to mean communism to their base and have been doing so for decades. They are too dumb to realize they are not one and the same. They are also too dumb to realize how much socialism we have in the US that they love. Yes..they are that stupid.
Click to expand...

I believe it is also strategy. Just today Fox News is railing against Macron and France, and preaching the ills of European Socialism, how the Europeans are rioting over evil Socialism. And that's the crux of it being a smear campaign, Republicans are afraid of European policy and they want it demonized.
 
Isn't it interesting how the inability to recognize our own self hatred drives us to identify with some shared ideology simply because it offers us an illusion of worthiness if we simply believe in it as the good. In this way the ideology can use the fear of being stripped of that externalized feeling of worth to defend it even when it is existentially disadvantageous for the believers. What we fear is the loss of our false sense of self respect because we actually don't have the real thing and we would in many cases rather die than know it. Better to live in misery than know how bad you feel. Plus, it's what we really feel we deserve.
 
Jaskalas said:
Public ownership and control over production, little to no private property?
Bull!@#$. The term socialism has been abused and rendered inert. Their use of it has no meaning. They may as well say "other".

They cry and whine over taxation, but that is not the same as control / elimination of private property. The economy has a disease of trending towards slave wages. Balance can only be maintained through a strong safety net. A huge one already exists today, but it is a patchwork of strings and holes with people falling through and being left behind all the time. We fail our people by not "being there" for them. Without a better solution to prevent Lootocracy.

Solving a inherent flaw in Capitalism does not make us Socialists or Communists. The true champions of Capitalism are the ones who want to see it thrive and work for everyone. Market solutions are fine, but they cannot stand alone. Over time, history has shown us that having no government is as fatal as having no market. The two opposing forces must work together if we intend to survive as a people.

I am a Capitalist who stands for Bernie Sanders and the progressive wing of the Democrat Party.
Click to expand...

While I support taxation, how is it not taking of private property? Do you not own your money?
 
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