on Point: Evangelical Christians and Politics

Goosemaster

Lifer
Apr 10, 2001
48,775
3
81
link to episode

n the booming world of Christian evangelical mega-churches these days, certain politics tend to be presumed: conservative, right-wing, Republican. And powerful Christian Right leaders have grown very close to the leadership of the GOP, which is -- at the moment -- the leadership of the country.

That, says Christian evangelical mega-church leader Gregory Boyd, is a mistake. Earthly power, he now preaches, is corrupting. The religious right, he says, risks idolatry in its worship of power, politics and patriotism.

America is not the light of the world, Boyd told his congregation, Jesus is. A fifth walked out but thousands stayed.

Hear a conversation with mega-church minister Gregory Boyd, on worldly power and the Christian Right.

Guests
Spacer
· Reverend Gregory A. Boyd, Senior Pastor at Woodland Hills Church in St. Paul, Minnesota, and author of "The Myth of a Christian Nation"
· Reverend Rick Scarborough, President of Vision America in Lufkin, Texas


Not trying to to anything more than share a very itnerestign episode of this great show. Honestly, the words of the revered sounded so different than most of the words I have heard from the pulpit on the subject and I gotta say it was refreshing.

Anyone else a fan of the show? they always have such interesting topics...


marketplace is still my fav though:heart:
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
I've never heard the show before but that the best discussion of the teachings of Jesus that I have come across in a long while, and the callers at the end give a great perspective of the range of opinions between Christians as well.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
It's interesting, it's only recently that evangelical Christians have become so involved in political issues, staying out of politics used to actually be one of their principles.

Edit: Also, am I the only one who's not too impressed with a fifth of the churchgoers walking out when Boyd had the audacity to suggest what they should really be worshiping is Jesus, not America? What happened to religion in this country, man?
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
It's interesting, it's only recently that evangelical Christians have become so involved in political issues, staying out of politics used to actually be one of their principles.

Edit: Also, am I the only one who's not too impressed with a fifth of the churchgoers walking out when Boyd had the audacity to suggest what they should really be worshiping is Jesus, not America? What happened to religion in this country, man?

Are you kidding me? I feel like a recordplayer around here. Oh wait, let me age this - I feel like a CD on repeat :D

Surely you've read history right? Does prohbition ring a bell? Or more recently - how about the anti-porn crusades of the 60's/70's. evangelical christians have always been involved in politics...just as have every other religion (or non-religion - i.e. unitarians, etc.) AFAIK, it's never been one of "their principles". You just perceive it this way because that's the drum the left wing has been beating recently.

If the right's boogeyman is security and terror, then the lefts boogeyman is religion. Only communism is successful at the union of the two :)
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
I don't think the left is afraid of religion, rather they just view the separation of religion and politics an important principle in our country. I know it's an extreme example, but the logical outcome of allowing the two to mix is the Taliban. I think America is better off as a secular nation, and when you think about it, the best way to preserve freedom of religion is to keep government neutral.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
And that debate has been going since the country was founded - and probably will never cease. You point out the taliban as one extreme - I'll point to the only other extreme out there (which isn't really extreme) like maybe the netherlands - it still has religious parties trying to sway politics, morality laws are still debated and lobbied.
 

straightalker

Senior member
Dec 21, 2005
515
0
0
If you get force marched into the phony left-right paradigm the outcome of ALL YOUR ANALYSIS AND DEBATES will be thoroughly distorted by design. It's called psyops and mass mind control.

One of the most powerful mass mind control delusions today is the incredibly false conclusion that carrying a Bible to a Church on Sunday makes you a Christian. It goes further. The next level of the delusion spreads all this much wider. A group of these totally phony christian Church-goers will next form a theological or political movement. Which they next shroud in the name of Jesus and popular buzzwords that are used to attract the Fundies.

You should walk out of any Church where the senior Pastor is one of these liars. Perhaps the best example is the contraption called Liberty University that was created by Jerry Falwell. Who is one of the most politically active media whores and false christians in existence. Close behind or with that same pack of liars is The 700 Club and Pat Robertson. Also Jack Van Impe. The list get's very long indeed.
In the booming world of Christian evangelical mega-churches these days, certain politics tend to be presumed: conservative, right-wing, Republican. And powerful Christian Right leaders have grown very close to the leadership of the GOP, which is -- at the moment -- the leadership of the country. That, says Christian evangelical mega-church leader Gregory Boyd, is a mistake. Earthly power, he now preaches, is corrupting. The religious right, he says, risks idolatry in its worship of power, politics and patriotism.
Key words "very close to the leadership". A simple examination of that leadership reveals Rove, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and on and on. Surely the most wicked bunch of so-called "leaders" in USA history. These grand masters of evil stroke phony christian mega-church leaders to get them to betray their cadre of followers into joining the religious movement which some call "the religious right". Alias "right-wing christians". It's a delusion to think of this group and it's followers that way. They are definitely not christians. Nor are they even good people. They are the duped leading other dupes astray. Wolves in sheep's clothing. The treachery of these people is shrouded in their ignorance. They are traitors of true Christianity and of our Nation.
Compromise equals treachery, which requires neither intent nor even consciousness on the part of the traitor. More often it grows out of ?normal? mistaken attitudes developed in the modernist climate fostered by subversives. Treachery, then, is not necessarily subjective, overt, or culpable; it remains treachery, nevertheless, in fact.?
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: straightalker
If you get force marched into the phony left-right paradigm the outcome of ALL YOUR ANALYSIS AND DEBATES will be thoroughly distorted by design. It's called psyops and mass mind control.

Most people would just stop here. I'm a glutton for punishment I guess. You are a lunatic, nothing you said made any sense, par for the course.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
29,928
43,455
136
Most people would just stop here. I'm a glutton for punishment I guess. You are a lunatic, nothing you said made any sense, par for the course.

Coming from someone who tried to pass off fundie suicide bombers as "leftists," your reaction to his statement is unsurprising. While I take exception with the citing of "mind control," you strike me as proof of the afore mentioned phony left-right paradigm.

They are traitors of true Christianity and of our Nation.

:thumbsup:
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: kage69
Most people would just stop here. I'm a glutton for punishment I guess. You are a lunatic, nothing you said made any sense, par for the course.

Coming from someone who tried to pass off fundie suicide bombers as "leftists," your reaction to his statement is unsurprising. While I take exception with the citing of "mind control," you strike me as proof of the afore mentioned phony left-right paradigm.

They are traitors of true Christianity and of our Nation.

:thumbsup:

Another lunatic roams the halls - where did I try to pass off "fundie suicide bombers" as "leftists"?
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
29,928
43,455
136
Another lunatic roams the halls

Of course, as naturally anyone who doesn't share your views is a lunatic. Here's your :cookie:

where did I try to pass off "fundie suicide bombers" as "leftists"?

Well that wasn't the exact wording, but your intent in this thread was pretty clear.

Spare me the inevitable explanation, I've read enough of your posts over the years to know of your personal hate of all things liberal and can deal it. Calling those who have the nerve to see things differently as "lunatics," well... you might want to work on that lest ye be cast into the Pit of Zen. Wouldn't want to lose anymore conservatives, they've been droppin like flies around here lately. What can I say, I like balance. :)



Edit: Had to fix the link






 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Linkie no workie. I'll address it if you fix it, even though you've already pre-emptively dismissed any response. Nice open-minded liberal you are.

Personal hate of all things liberal? Hardly. I'm a very liberal person, by any measure.

Far leftists I can't stand, just as I can't stand far-rightists, although many conservative principles I also subscribe to. Can't stand lunatics either, they just muddy the waters of reasonable debate.

Edit: Ah, I see it now. Yes, extreme leftists for some reason have a sick alliance with terrorists. Not sure why they are so infatuted with them, other than probably the farther to the left you go the more anti-semite you become. Probably wouldn't strap on a dynamite vest though, violent leftist extremists tend to prefer other methods. Probably because they don't believe they are getting any goodies in an afterlife.

Good topic for another thread :thumbsup:
 

outriding

Diamond Member
Feb 20, 2002
3,860
3,148
136
Originally posted by: alchemize
Linkie no workie. I'll address it if you fix it, even though you've already pre-emptively dismissed any response. Nice open-minded liberal you are.

Personal hate of all things liberal? Hardly. I'm a very liberal person, by any measure.

Far leftists I can't stand, just as I can't stand far-rightists, although many conservative principles I also subscribe to. Can't stand lunatics either, they just muddy the waters of reasonable debate.

Edit: Ah, I see it now. Yes, extreme leftists for some reason have a sick alliance with terrorists. Not sure why they are so infatuted with them, other than probably the farther to the left you go the more anti-semite you become. Probably wouldn't strap on a dynamite vest though, violent leftist extremists tend to prefer other methods. Probably because they don't believe they are getting any goodies in an afterlife.

Good topic for another thread :thumbsup:


You liberal ???

I must be the Queen of England.

The farther Left you go the more anti-semite you become???

I would have to say Hitler is the biggest anti-semite of all but he was not a lefty..

linky

I would have to say most lefties do not condone death... Hell we are againts the death penalty (speaking as a group)...


But anyways back on topic...

revoke their tax exempt status. that will keep them out of politics
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
29,928
43,455
136
I'll address it if you fix it, even though you've already pre-emptively dismissed any response.

Because you are predictable, and I hold onto no illusion that anything I say will sway you from the behavior you've exhibited for so long. I can only hope one day facts will outweigh your bias and you'll start to do the conservative base some good debate-wise.

Nice open-minded liberal you are

If you say so. I, however, have never proclaimed myself to be an open-minded liberal. I do try to be open-minded though, and am not above admitting when I am wrong or changing my position when presented with evidence to the contrary.


Personal hate of all things liberal? Hardly. I'm a very liberal person, by any measure.

Other than the topic of public breast-feeding, I'm at a loss to support your statements. In fact, I've lost count of how many times you've gone out of your way to bash anything to the left. But no matter, I won't presume to think that text on a forum fully encapsulates your political makeup and character. Better to take issue with specific assumptions, 'you're a lunatic,' or 'you're a liberal' for example...

Far leftists I can't stand, just as I can't stand far-rightists, although many conservative principles I also subscribe to. Can't stand lunatics either, they just muddy the waters of reasonable debate.

I certainly believe you (not to mention agree with you) concerning these 'far-leftists,' but you do have this tendancy to leap to the far-rights defense, in some cases more than others, particulary concerning religion. Case in point, the 'other' current thread. Regardless, if you want to clarify the waters of debate, it would be best not to add dirt of your own, and by that I mean immediately dismissing the other side as mentally unsound. If you're so confidant of your position, great, let it rely on it's own merits. Employing the same kind of BS you lament over isn't going to accomplish much short of making you look like a hypocrite.

Edit: Ah, I see it now. Yes, extreme leftists for some reason have a sick alliance with terrorists. Not sure why they are so infatuted with them, other than probably the farther to the left you go the more anti-semite you become. Probably wouldn't strap on a dynamite vest though, violent leftist extremists tend to prefer other methods. Probably because they don't believe they are getting any goodies in an afterlife.

I hate to have to break this to you, but these suicide bombers that keep blowing themselves and others up in the ME? They are fundamental Islamic terrorists, i.e., extreme religious conservatives (your far-rights if you will) who have no problem using murder to further their religious agenda. You know, the whole 'unite under Islamic law' and 'expel the infidel' schtick. One of the reasons there is not a shortage of these "martyrs-to-be" is that they are getting lots of goodies in their afterlife. They don't have an alliance with, or outsource manned-detonations to, the communist suicide squads circa 1968 Vietnam, ok?

I'm sorry, but this far-leftist suicide bomber stuff of yours is total bunk. If they were on the left, they wouldn't be trying to preserve a 15th century religion as a type of goverment. If you've been hearing all the news concerning jihad this and sha'ria that, and still manage to think the situation in Iraq and Israel as just a modern day redux on the Bader-Meinhof Gang incidents....:confused: well, my earlier mentioning of me holding no illusions on swaying you will have been correct. If you dismiss facts like that outright, what the hell can I say?

My apologies (to all as well) for the off-topic nature of this. I would have presented this to you in the other thread, but after giving you the chance to clarify your initial post you never replied.


 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I go to church every Sunday and I have never heard my church being for or against any candidate or any political party. We are always told to consider the candidates and make the best decision we can and vote our own conscience. I know some churces endorse certain candidates or parties but we do not do that.

Jesus never stood behind or for any political or government system.
 

TheAdvocate

Platinum Member
Mar 7, 2005
2,561
7
81
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I don't think the left is afraid of religion, rather they just view the separation of religion and politics an important principle in our country. I know it's an extreme example, but the logical outcome of allowing the two to mix is the Taliban. I think America is better off as a secular nation, and when you think about it, the best way to preserve freedom of religion is to keep government neutral.

Based on their writings and speeches, the founders agree with you, especially Madison, and Jefferson.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
It's interesting, it's only recently that evangelical Christians have become so involved in political issues, staying out of politics used to actually be one of their principles.

Edit: Also, am I the only one who's not too impressed with a fifth of the churchgoers walking out when Boyd had the audacity to suggest what they should really be worshiping is Jesus, not America? What happened to religion in this country, man?

The same thing that happened to the Republican Party. It confused "power to do the right thing" with "power to do anything."

Every time this issue crops up it gives me a reason to link to Stanley Hauerwas.

 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: outriding
Originally posted by: alchemize
Linkie no workie. I'll address it if you fix it, even though you've already pre-emptively dismissed any response. Nice open-minded liberal you are.

Personal hate of all things liberal? Hardly. I'm a very liberal person, by any measure.

Far leftists I can't stand, just as I can't stand far-rightists, although many conservative principles I also subscribe to. Can't stand lunatics either, they just muddy the waters of reasonable debate.

Edit: Ah, I see it now. Yes, extreme leftists for some reason have a sick alliance with terrorists. Not sure why they are so infatuted with them, other than probably the farther to the left you go the more anti-semite you become. Probably wouldn't strap on a dynamite vest though, violent leftist extremists tend to prefer other methods. Probably because they don't believe they are getting any goodies in an afterlife.

Good topic for another thread :thumbsup:


You liberal ???

I must be the Queen of England.

The farther Left you go the more anti-semite you become???

I would have to say Hitler is the biggest anti-semite of all but he was not a lefty..

linky

I would have to say most lefties do not condone death... Hell we are againts the death penalty (speaking as a group)...


But anyways back on topic...

revoke their tax exempt status. that will keep them out of politics

Ever heard of Stalin? Mao? Pol Pot? A wee bit on the violent side. Most european communists have been anti-semite also. Communism is extreme leftism. Try again?

And the farther to the right you go, the more anti-semite you become also...funny how the two end up meeting each other...
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: outriding
Originally posted by: alchemize
Linkie no workie. I'll address it if you fix it, even though you've already pre-emptively dismissed any response. Nice open-minded liberal you are.

Personal hate of all things liberal? Hardly. I'm a very liberal person, by any measure.

Far leftists I can't stand, just as I can't stand far-rightists, although many conservative principles I also subscribe to. Can't stand lunatics either, they just muddy the waters of reasonable debate.

Edit: Ah, I see it now. Yes, extreme leftists for some reason have a sick alliance with terrorists. Not sure why they are so infatuted with them, other than probably the farther to the left you go the more anti-semite you become. Probably wouldn't strap on a dynamite vest though, violent leftist extremists tend to prefer other methods. Probably because they don't believe they are getting any goodies in an afterlife.

Good topic for another thread :thumbsup:


You liberal ???

I must be the Queen of England.

The farther Left you go the more anti-semite you become???

I would have to say Hitler is the biggest anti-semite of all but he was not a lefty..

linky

I would have to say most lefties do not condone death... Hell we are againts the death penalty (speaking as a group)...


But anyways back on topic...

revoke their tax exempt status. that will keep them out of politics

Ever heard of Stalin? Mao? Pol Pot? A wee bit on the violent side. Most european communists have been anti-semite also. Communism is extreme leftism. Try again?

And the farther to the right you go, the more anti-semite you become also...funny how the two end up meeting each other...

Not to go too far off-topic but seems like the basic premise is that the more extreme your views become the more likely it is you begin to talk about the marginalization (if not extermination) of some group (the opposition). Unfortunately, that's a pretty simplistic . . . dare I say moronic assessment.

Allegedly Christian Conservatives want everyone to live like they do . . . oops they want everyone to live as they SAY they do. But the FAR left isn't really a polar extreme. Prototypical far left issues (abortion, gay rights) actually have no impact on anyone other than the people that chose said activities. If anything the polar extreme is Libertarian.

In a historical sense, nationalism has been a refuge for both the polar left and right. It's just a sociopolitical fluke that some Americans grab a Bible.

And growing up in the south, I haven't met anyone that didn't like Jews but didn't claim to love Jesus.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
And that debate has been going since the country was founded - and probably will never cease. You point out the taliban as one extreme - I'll point to the only other extreme out there (which isn't really extreme) like maybe the netherlands - it still has religious parties trying to sway politics, morality laws are still debated and lobbied.

I find that a very unsatisfying response. Let me dig further -- what exactly is the argument for MORE religious influence in politics? And by that I mean: what is the benefit to American society of more entanglement between government and religion?
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
I find this excerpt from the link in strk's post interesting and refreshing.
?America wasn?t founded as a theocracy,? he said. ?America was founded by people trying to escape theocracies. Never in history have we had a Christian theocracy where it wasn?t bloody and barbaric. That?s why our Constitution wisely put in a separation of church and state."

Seems to me he is one pastor who understands what religion is truly about.

here's another quote
One woman asked: ?So why NOT us? If we contain the wisdom and grace and love and creativity of Jesus, why shouldn?t we be the ones involved in politics and setting laws??

Mr. Boyd responded: ?I don?t think there?s a particular angle we have on society that others lack. All good, decent people want good and order and justice. Just don?t slap the label ?Christian? on it.?