On Becoming Europe

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
OK, I could have written this article, but I didn't.

I very much enjoy living in Europe, or Asia or South America for that matter, the times I come here to work. I enjoy the food, the drinks, the culture and the history. As an American I can always go back home when the tear gas gets too strong or when the garbage piles up too high. And I can afford to bypass the European version of UHC.

I am also not subject to the prevalent class system, my fortunes are not dictated by where I was born, nor to whom. This is upsetting to some of my local friends and they wish they could feel as free but they do not want to leave the comforts of their government managed existence.

After all, not many actually leave for America compared to those who remain.

I wonder where everyone who wants to become an American will go in four more years?

On Becoming Europe

On Becoming Europe

Thoughts of Our European Future to Come

By Victor Davis Hanson

PAJAMAMEDIA

On August 12, 2009 @ 12:28 pm

After concluding another 16 days in Europe. I am again reminded how different their form of socialism is, and yet how closely it resembles the model that Obama seeks for America. The vast majority of citizens lives in apartments, even in smaller towns and villages. Cars are tiny. Prices are higher than in the states; income is lower (The government taxes you to pay for things like ?free? college, so you won?t have much to spend on antisocial things like your Wal-Mart plastic Christmas Tree or your second K-Mart plasma TV.)

Mass transit is frequent and cheap, but often crowded and occasionally unpleasant. The stifled desire to acquire something?large house, car, deposit account?is of course not quite destroyed by socialism, but rather is channeled into a sort of cynicism and anger, often leading to a hedonism of few children, late and long meals, and disco hours until the early morning. The number of Gucci like stores selling overpriced label junk like 200 Euro eye-glass frames and 1000 Euro leather bags to socialists is quite amazing.

A Party for Everything

Multiple political parties flourish, all with passionate single agenda constituents. Graffiti is not gang related, but mostly political and nonsensical. Media is divided by politics, a leftwing paper, a rightwing magazine. Unions control almost all government services. And yet class is firmly entrenched and aristocratic snobbery more pronounced. (We already see that strange symbiosis between socialism for everyone else, capitalism for a few, whether in Michelle?s clothes, the Obama?s mansion, the Kerry fortune, the Edwards compound, the Gore appurtenances, the Clinton speaking cash cow, and too many others to list).

Among upper-class Greeks, one is constantly reminded that their grandfather, their cousin, or mother-in-law was this minister once, or that writer years ago, or today a famous diplomat?anything to focus one?s attention beyond the possession of the normal flat in the normal apartment building and the normal tiny Fiat and the normal public education.

Ministries to be Milked

When I talk to well-off Italians and Greeks who have substantial homes by the sea not available to most others, one of three realities leak out: one, they have family money made decades ago by their ancestors that includes ancestral estates permissible before the period of supposed mandated equality of result. In other words, theirs got theirs and then helped make laws so no one else could.

Or, two, people simply cheat on taxes all the time. If you buy something, the offer comes to pay in cash. A Greek explained to me his government job is his official tax-paying day job; the expertise necessary for it is what he farms out at night and on weekends for cash that goes for a second home, a larger car, a vacation abroad.

Egalitarian Vampires

Or, three, the technocrats who run these vast welfare states are not only well paid, but more importantly are able to garner cars, travel, and plush apartments as tax-free job related perks (cf. the current scandal in London). If being a ?venture capitalist? is what wannabe Harvard kids in their 20s sought in the 1990s, being a bigwig Minister, with neo-classical office, state Mercedes, and official residence is the perennial European equivalent. This is a continent of Tom Daschles, who win by being exempt from the burden of government that they subject on others, and win again by having the contacts to sort out government contracts to crony-businesses.

My point? The more Europe professes to be egalitarian, the more cynical and conniving the people have become?almost as if the human craving for one?s own property and to make one one?s destiny cannot be denied by the state, but by needs will be channeled into what the state mandates as anti-social for most, but quietly a perk for a few.

Unhappy Socialist Campers

I?ve been reading a lot of commentary in Italian and Greek newspapers these last three weeks and talking to Italians, Greeks, and Turks during two long European lecture tours. Socialism surely does not make one happier, or content knowing that the resulting society is somehow more humane or caring. Instead each faction is constantly on the verge of striking against the public good. There are always the bad ?them?, easy-target public enemies among the rich and aristocratic who need to give away more to the ?deserving.? The bank workers are in perpetual war against the garbage cleaners who hate the social service workers who whine about the fire and police?each convinced the public must grant more largess on themselves than on like others.

Just as the government is necessary to nanny one and all?and thereby earns both the demands and resentment of the recipient for its caring?so too the United States serves the same role to Europe at large: hated and needed at the same time.

Parents Are Hated by Their Dependents

In Greece, they are being hit by a pandemic of Turkish over-flights in the Aegean, and rather cynical efforts of Turkish money-making smugglers to buy wrecked freighters and beach them with hundreds of aliens from the Middle East on the shores of Aegean?Greece being the gateway to the EU money trough for supposed ?political refugees?. Illegal aliens are everywhere in Athens. The country is sort of the front lines of European utopian pretension: what sounds good in Brussels is reified in the here and now in Greece with its porous maritime borders on the Middle East.

I would assume that if there weren?t a US-led NATO, some sort of shooting war would quickly break out over immigrants, Aegean air space, or Cyprus. To suggest that privately to Greeks is to earn a grudging nod; to do so publicly is to get a fiery denunciation and yet another tutorial about the 1967 coup, and the Henry Kissinger intrigue in Cyprus, as prequel to Iraq and Bush.

Thoughts on DMV Health Care in extremis

Because I have traveled a great deal in my life, often recklessly so, alone, and to weird places in search of answers to topographical questions of the ancient Mediterranean world, and first-hand observations about battles and campaigns in out of the way places for several books? I have ended up over the last 36 years in a number of socialist hospitals: E-coli poisoning in Athens from tainted strawberries; a cut tendon on my index finger from a barbed wire fence in Sparta (with reaction to live tetanus vaccination); a severed ureter due to an impacted staghorn calculus kidney stone from dehydration of excavating at Corinth; a light case of malaria at Karnak, Egypt; an out of control, strep throat that turned into something more in Izmir, Turkey; a ruptured appendix, surgery, and peritonitis in Tripolis, Libya, and so on.

In each case, the care was terrible. A sole lonely doctor or maverick nurse in two cases saved my life, but on the average the facilities were filthy, and the employees akin to those in the government-run post office or bank. And a strange thing occurred as well: often the staff became mad at the patient: ?Why did you come here with an appendix problem??; You should have not let your strep get out of control!?; ?If you don?t drink water, what do you expect!?; ?See what happens when you don?t take all your quinine pills!?.

Socialism will always blame the patient (just watch when it comes here), I suppose for drawing on collective resources, and to focus on public enemies whose weight, smoking, or lifestyle (I do not smoke or drink, but exercise and am of reasonable weight) have betrayed the public ideal. (Fat people, and smokers (except our President) will soon become as hated in the socialist mind as jet skis, those in their 80s who want a bypass, Yukons, Tahoes and investment bankers.)

Europe is Europe, Because America is Not?

No, Europe should not only not be our model, but Euros know it should not be our model. A few brilliant Europeans whisper, ?Of course, it is lost here, since no addict insidiously hooked on government entitlement ever gives such largess up. But you over there still have a chance.? For a few Europeans, America?s military (drawing on fewer people and less territory and GDP than the expanded EU) is the only hope for Western defense. It?s where most life-saving drugs will emerge, new technologies are birthed, and huge sophisticated markets grow for European goods. So they have a stake in not allowing us to become like them.

The Not-so-Kind Face of Socialism

One final thought: I?ve never met a beatific equality-of-result person. They are usually grim and angry warriors determined to right cosmic wrongs, eager to demonize those who ?have too much?, convinced that the divine ends justify the demonic means.

In that regard, despite the hope and change rhetoric, when Obama went down that ?spread the wealth? path, I feared that we would get the Rev. Wright race talk. It is no surprise that Obama invokes the constant bogeymen who do all sorts of terrible things, among them most prominently the Orwellian Goldstein figure of George W. Bush. There are no legitimate critics, only those Obama & Co. claim are shills for the insurance industries, who unfairly attack the Canadian health system, the greedy who go to Vegas and the Super Bowl, the Neanderthal who cling to their guns, the dissidents known as Nazis, stooges, mobs, and the well-dressed who dare to become rude to the Congresspeople.

The road to socialism is not natural. It must be paved with the hard work of class envy, demonization of the successful, and obfuscation that each new massive spending program that will raise both taxes and deficits (that?s the point, after all, to create so much red ink that we must raise taxes and redefine what constitutes income) must be passed immediately, without delay, now-or-never to stave off Biblical hunger, plague, and flood.

Or else!
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
quote: We already see that strange symbiosis between socialism for everyone else, capitalism for a few, whether in Michelle?s clothes, the Obama?s mansion, the Kerry fortune, the Edwards compound, the Gore appurtenances, the Clinton speaking cash cow, and too many others to list."

Yeah, I get it. Liberals are not allowed to be rich and live in mansions, only conservatives are allowed to have lots of money.

How do you explain the fact that many rich liberals are for higher taxes-on themselves?
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Victor Davis Hanson has put out a lot of good stuff, I highly recommend reading his current materials and archives. His books are priceless.

Victor Davis Hanson

Victor Davis Hanson

Victor Davis Hanson is the Martin and Illie Anderson Senior Fellow in Residence in Classics and Military History at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, a professor of Classics Emeritus at California State University, Fresno, and a nationally syndicated columnist for Tribune Media Services. He is also the Wayne & Marcia Buske Distinguished Fellow in History, Hillsdale College, where he teaches each fall semester courses in military history and classical culture.

He was awarded the National Humanities Medal in 2007 and the Bradley Prize in 2008.

Hanson, who was the fifth successive generation to live in the same house on his family?s farm, was a full-time orchard and vineyard grower from 1980-1984, before joining the nearby CSU Fresno campus in 1984 to initiate a classical languages program. In 1991, he was awarded an American Philological Association Excellence in Teaching Award, which is given yearly to the country's top undergraduate teachers of Greek and Latin.? Hanson has been a National Endowment for the Humanities fellow at the Center for Advanced Studies in the Behavioral Sciences, Stanford, California (1992-93), a visiting professor of classics at Stanford University (1991-92), a recipient of the Eric Breindel Award for opinion journalism (2002), an Alexander Onassis Fellow (2001), and was named alumnus of the year of the University of California, Santa Cruz (2002). He was also the visiting Shifrin Professor of Military History at the U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, Maryland (2002-3). He received the Manhattan Institute's Wriston Lectureship in 2004, and the 2006 Nimitz Lectureship in Military History at UC Berkeley in 2006.

Hanson is the author of hundreds of articles, book reviews, scholarly papers, and newspaper editorials on matters ranging from ancient Greek, agrarian and military history to foreign affairs, domestic politics, and contemporary culture. He has written or edited 17 books, including Warfare and Agriculture in Classical Greece (1983; paperback ed. University of California Press, 1998); The Western Way of War (Alfred Knopf, 1989; 2d paperback ed. University of California Press, 2000); Hoplites: The Ancient Greek Battle Experience (Routledge, 1991; paperback., 1992); The Other Greeks: The Family Farm and the Agrarian Roots of Western Civilization (Free Press, 1995; 2nd paperback ed., University of California Press, 2000); Fields without Dreams: Defending the Agrarian Idea (Free Press, 1996; paperback, Touchstone, 1997; The Bay Area Book reviewers Non-fiction winner for 1996); The Land Was Everything, Letters from an American Farmer (Free Press, 2000; a Los Angeles Times Notable book of the year); The Wars of the Ancient Greeks (Cassell, 1999; paperback, 2001); The Soul of Battle (Free Press, 1999, paperback, Anchor/Vintage, 2000); Carnage and Culture (Doubleday, 2001; Anchor/Vintage, 2002; a New York Times bestseller); An Autumn of War (Anchor/Vintage, 2002); Mexifornia: A State of Becoming (Encounter, 2003), Ripples of Battle (Doubleday, 2003), and Between War and Peace (Random House, 2004).

A War Like No Other: How the Athenians and Spartans Fought the Peloponnesian War, was published by Random House in October 2005. It was named one of the New York Times Notable 100 Books of 2006. Hanson coauthored, with John Heath, Who Killed Homer? The Demise of Classical Education and the Recovery of Greek Wisdom (Free Press, 1998; paperback, Encounter Press, 2000); with Bruce Thornton and John Heath, Bonfire of the Humanities (ISI Books, 2001); and with Heather MacDonald, and Steven Malanga, The Immigration Solution: A Better Plan Than Today's (Ivan Dee 2007). He is currently editing Makers of Ancient Strategy for Princeton University Press.

Hanson has written for the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Los Angeles Times, International Herald Tribune, New York Post, National Review, Washington Times, Commentary, The Washington Post, Claremont Review of Books, American Heritage, New Criterion, Policy Review, Wilson Quarterly, Weekly Standard, Daily Telegraph, and has been interviewed often on National Public Radio, PBS Newshour, Fox News, CNN, and C-Span's Book TV and In-Depth. He serves on the editorial board of the Military History Quarterly, and City Journal.

Since 2001, Hanson has written a weekly column for National Review Online, and in 2004, began his weekly syndicated column for Tribune Media Services. In 2006, he also began thrice-weekly blog for Pajamas Media, Works and Days.

Hanson was educated at the University of California, Santa Cruz (BA, Classics, 1975, ?highest honors? Classics, ?college honors?, Cowell College), the American School of Classical Studies, Athens (regular member, 1978-79) and received his Ph.D. in Classics from Stanford University in 1980. He divides his time between his forty-acre tree and vine farm near Selma, California, where he was born in 1953, and the Stanford campus.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: marincounty
How do you explain the fact that many rich liberals are for higher taxes-on themselves?

Because they equate taxation to charity, while Republicans equate taxation to tyranny.
 

n yusef

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2005
2,158
1
0
If I read that correctly, the author visited Italy, Greece and Turkey, and extrapolated to the entirety of Europe. I've never heard of PAJAMAS MEDIA, but they must have a low editorial budget.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: PJABBER


After concluding another 16 days in Europe. I am again reminded how different their form of socialism is, and yet how closely it resembles the model that Obama seeks for America. The vast majority of citizens lives in apartments, even in smaller towns and villages. Cars are tiny. Prices are higher than in the states; income is lower (The government taxes you to pay for things like ?free? college, so you won?t have much to spend on antisocial things like your Wal-Mart plastic Christmas Tree or your second K-Mart plasma TV.)

Mass transit is frequent and cheap, but often crowded and occasionally unpleasant. The stifled desire to acquire something?large house, car, deposit account?is of course not quite destroyed by socialism, but rather is channeled into a sort of cynicism and anger, often leading to a hedonism of few children, late and long meals, and disco hours until the early morning. The number of Gucci like stores selling overpriced label junk like 200 Euro eye-glass frames and 1000 Euro leather bags to socialists is quite amazing.

i'm sorry, but those are good things.

A Party for Everything

Multiple political parties flourish, all with passionate single agenda constituents. Graffiti is not gang related, but mostly political and nonsensical. Media is divided by politics, a leftwing paper, a rightwing magazine. Unions control almost all government services. And yet class is firmly entrenched and aristocratic snobbery more pronounced. (We already see that strange symbiosis between socialism for everyone else, capitalism for a few, whether in Michelle?s clothes, the Obama?s mansion, the Kerry fortune, the Edwards compound, the Gore appurtenances, the Clinton speaking cash cow, and too many others to list).

oh Christ functioning democracy!!!1 Liberals making money!!@ Madness!

Among upper-class Greeks, one is constantly reminded that their grandfather, their cousin, or mother-in-law was this minister once, or that writer years ago, or today a famous diplomat?anything to focus one?s attention beyond the possession of the normal flat in the normal apartment building and the normal tiny Fiat and the normal public education.
because this never happens anywhere else.


When I talk to well-off Italians and Greeks who have substantial homes by the sea not available to most others, one of three realities leak out: one, they have family money made decades ago by their ancestors that includes ancestral estates permissible before the period of supposed mandated equality of result. In other words, theirs got theirs and then helped make laws so no one else could.
aren't conservatives supposed to be against the 'death tax'? Get your talking points straight.


I?ve been reading a lot of commentary in Italian and Greek newspapers these last three weeks and talking to Italians, Greeks, and Turks during two long European lecture tours. Socialism surely does not make one happier, or content knowing that the resulting society is somehow more humane or caring. Instead each faction is constantly on the verge of striking against the public good. There are always the bad ?them?, easy-target public enemies among the rich and aristocratic who need to give away more to the ?deserving.? The bank workers are in perpetual war against the garbage cleaners who hate the social service workers who whine about the fire and police?each convinced the public must grant more largess on themselves than on like others.
freedom fries. socialism. illegal immigrants. etc. We have our boggy men too.


Because I have traveled a great deal in my life, often recklessly so, alone, and to weird places in search of answers to topographical questions of the ancient Mediterranean world, and first-hand observations about battles and campaigns in out of the way places for several books? I have ended up over the last 36 years in a number of socialist hospitals: E-coli poisoning in Athens from tainted strawberries; a cut tendon on my index finger from a barbed wire fence in Sparta (with reaction to live tetanus vaccination); a severed ureter due to an impacted staghorn calculus kidney stone from dehydration of excavating at Corinth; a light case of malaria at Karnak, Egypt; an out of control, strep throat that turned into something more in Izmir, [/b]Turkey[/b]; a ruptured appendix, surgery, and peritonitis in Tripolis, [/b]Libya, and so on.
so he experiences with European health care are based on his adventures in the third world? is this guy serious?

In each case, the care was terrible. A sole lonely doctor or maverick nurse in two cases saved my life, but on the average the facilities were filthy, and the employees akin to those in the government-run post office or bank. And a strange thing occurred as well: often the staff became mad at the patient: ?Why did you come here with an appendix problem??; You should have not let your strep get out of control!?; ?If you don?t drink water, what do you expect!?; ?See what happens when you don?t take all your quinine pills!?.
wow, lecturing the patient for being and idiot. Something american patients could use alot more of.

Europe is Europe, Because America is Not?

No, Europe should not only not be our model, but Euros know it should not be our model. A few brilliant Europeans whisper, ?Of course, it is lost here, since no addict insidiously hooked on government entitlement ever gives such largess up. But you over there still have a chance.? For a few Europeans, America?s military (drawing on fewer people and less territory and GDP than the expanded EU) is the only hope for Western defense. It?s where most life-saving drugs will emerge, new technologies are birthed, and huge sophisticated markets grow for European goods. So they have a stake in not allowing us to become like them.

europe has several very large elite militarizes and the largest navies in the world that aren't american. Life saving drugs come from our largely public funded research universities, not pharmaceutical companies, who simply package and market (which is expensive).


this guy is an idiot, and according to this forum i should certainly know one when i see one.


edited for terrible formatting

 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: PJABBER


After concluding another 16 days in Europe. I am again reminded how different their form of socialism is, and yet how closely it resembles the model that Obama seeks for America. The vast majority of citizens lives in apartments, even in smaller towns and villages. Cars are tiny. Prices are higher than in the states; income is lower (The government taxes you to pay for things like ?free? college, so you won?t have much to spend on antisocial things like your Wal-Mart plastic Christmas Tree or your second K-Mart plasma TV.)

Mass transit is frequent and cheap, but often crowded and occasionally unpleasant. The stifled desire to acquire something?large house, car, deposit account?is of course not quite destroyed by socialism, but rather is channeled into a sort of cynicism and anger, often leading to a hedonism of few children, late and long meals, and disco hours until the early morning. The number of Gucci like stores selling overpriced label junk like 200 Euro eye-glass frames and 1000 Euro leather bags to socialists is quite amazing.

i'm sorry, but those are good things.

A Party for Everything

Multiple political parties flourish, all with passionate single agenda constituents. Graffiti is not gang related, but mostly political and nonsensical. Media is divided by politics, a leftwing paper, a rightwing magazine. Unions control almost all government services. And yet class is firmly entrenched and aristocratic snobbery more pronounced. (We already see that strange symbiosis between socialism for everyone else, capitalism for a few, whether in Michelle?s clothes, the Obama?s mansion, the Kerry fortune, the Edwards compound, the Gore appurtenances, the Clinton speaking cash cow, and too many others to list).

oh Christ functioning democracy!!!1 Liberals making money!!@ Madness!

Among upper-class Greeks, one is constantly reminded that their grandfather, their cousin, or mother-in-law was this minister once, or that writer years ago, or today a famous diplomat?anything to focus one?s attention beyond the possession of the normal flat in the normal apartment building and the normal tiny Fiat and the normal public education.
because this never happens anywhere else.


When I talk to well-off Italians and Greeks who have substantial homes by the sea not available to most others, one of three realities leak out: one, they have family money made decades ago by their ancestors that includes ancestral estates permissible before the period of supposed mandated equality of result. In other words, theirs got theirs and then helped make laws so no one else could.
aren't conservatives supposed to be against the 'death tax'? Get your talking points straight.


I?ve been reading a lot of commentary in Italian and Greek newspapers these last three weeks and talking to Italians, Greeks, and Turks during two long European lecture tours. Socialism surely does not make one happier, or content knowing that the resulting society is somehow more humane or caring. Instead each faction is constantly on the verge of striking against the public good. There are always the bad ?them?, easy-target public enemies among the rich and aristocratic who need to give away more to the ?deserving.? The bank workers are in perpetual war against the garbage cleaners who hate the social service workers who whine about the fire and police?each convinced the public must grant more largess on themselves than on like others.
freedom fries. socialism. illegal immigrants. etc. We have our boggy men too.


Because I have traveled a great deal in my life, often recklessly so, alone, and to weird places in search of answers to topographical questions of the ancient Mediterranean world, and first-hand observations about battles and campaigns in out of the way places for several books? I have ended up over the last 36 years in a number of socialist hospitals: E-coli poisoning in Athens from tainted strawberries; a cut tendon on my index finger from a barbed wire fence in Sparta (with reaction to live tetanus vaccination); a severed ureter due to an impacted staghorn calculus kidney stone from dehydration of excavating at Corinth; a light case of malaria at Karnak, Egypt; an out of control, strep throat that turned into something more in Izmir, [/b]Turkey[/b]; a ruptured appendix, surgery, and peritonitis in Tripolis, [/b]Libya, and so on.
so he experiences with European health care are based on his adventures in the third world? is this guy serious?

In each case, the care was terrible. A sole lonely doctor or maverick nurse in two cases saved my life, but on the average the facilities were filthy, and the employees akin to those in the government-run post office or bank. And a strange thing occurred as well: often the staff became mad at the patient: ?Why did you come here with an appendix problem??; You should have not let your strep get out of control!?; ?If you don?t drink water, what do you expect!?; ?See what happens when you don?t take all your quinine pills!?.
wow, lecturing the patient for being and idiot. Something american patients could use alot more of.

Europe is Europe, Because America is Not?

No, Europe should not only not be our model, but Euros know it should not be our model. A few brilliant Europeans whisper, ?Of course, it is lost here, since no addict insidiously hooked on government entitlement ever gives such largess up. But you over there still have a chance.? For a few Europeans, America?s military (drawing on fewer people and less territory and GDP than the expanded EU) is the only hope for Western defense. It?s where most life-saving drugs will emerge, new technologies are birthed, and huge sophisticated markets grow for European goods. So they have a stake in not allowing us to become like them.

europe has several very large elite militarizes and the largest navies in the world that aren't american. Life saving drugs come from our largely public funded research universities, not pharmaceutical companies, who simply package and market (which is expensive).


this guy is an idiot, and according to this forum i should certainly know one when i see one.


edited for terrible formatting

7.5/10 - Moderately strong ownage.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: PJABBER

On Becoming Europe

Thoughts of Our European Future to Come

By Victor Davis Hanson

The vast majority of citizens lives in apartments, even in smaller towns and villages. Cars are tiny.

Europe also has a much higher population density than the U.S., hence the price of land and building materials are higher, which pushes people into apartments.

Prices are higher than in the states; income is lower (The government taxes you to pay for things like ?free? college, so you won?t have much to spend on antisocial things like your Wal-Mart plastic Christmas Tree or your second K-Mart plasma TV.)

Hopefully the U.S. won't follow the European route and provide free college that ends up having little or no economic value as a result of college graduate overproduction. We already have a problem with college graduate overproduction here in the U.S., but instead of the government paying for it, the people who constitute the oversupply live in student-loan-induced poverty. Perhaps Mr. Hanson would be willing to advocate reducing the number of colleges and universities in the United States in order to reduce the amount of economic waste that results from an overproduction of college graduates relative to what society really needs?

Perhaps this can help explain why these European nations end up having higher taxes than the U.S. while having lower expenditures for health care in terms of percentage of GDP.

The stifled desire to acquire something?large house, car, deposit account?is of course not quite destroyed by socialism, but rather is channeled into a sort of cynicism and anger, often leading to a hedonism of few children, late and long meals, and disco hours until the early morning.

How is having few children hedonism? Might it be a rational economic decision? It would certainly be a good decision for poor Americans who have children they cannot afford (forcing other Americans to pay for their care and education). Also, why is having more than two children good in a world suffering from population explosion?

Multiple political parties flourish, all with passionate single agenda constituents.

It must be nice to be able to obtain representation for your views. Instead, here in the U.S. we have two awful, horrible political parties that don't seem to represent anyone's views.

And yet class is firmly entrenched and aristocratic snobbery more pronounced. (We already see that strange symbiosis between socialism for everyone else, capitalism for a few, whether in Michelle?s clothes, the Obama?s mansion, the Kerry fortune, the Edwards compound, the Gore appurtenances, the Clinton speaking cash cow, and too many others to list).

It's not as though America doesn't have classes and castes as well. Didn't The Economist publish a story a couple years back that showed that economic mobility between classes was decreasing in the U.S.?

Or, three, the technocrats who run these vast welfare states are not only well paid, but more importantly are able to garner cars, travel, and plush apartments as tax-free job related perks (cf. the current scandal in London). If being a ?venture capitalist? is what wannabe Harvard kids in their 20s sought in the 1990s, being a bigwig Minister, with neo-classical office, state Mercedes, and official residence is the perennial European equivalent. This is a continent of Tom Daschles, who win by being exempt from the burden of government that they subject on others, and win again by having the contacts to sort out government contracts to crony-businesses.

It's good to be da king and it's not much different for American politicians.

I?ve been reading a lot of commentary in Italian and Greek newspapers these last three weeks and talking to Italians, Greeks, and Turks during two long European lecture tours. Socialism surely does not make one happier, or content knowing that the resulting society is somehow more humane or caring.

Perhaps they need a good does of real capitalism for a while to remind them of just how much worse things could be.

Instead each faction is constantly on the verge of striking against the public good. There are always the bad ?them?, easy-target public enemies among the rich and aristocratic who need to give away more to the ?deserving.? The bank workers are in perpetual war against the garbage cleaners who hate the social service workers who whine about the fire and police?each convinced the public must grant more largess on themselves than on like others.

Is that kind of like how the American upper classes are engaged in a one-way class warfare against the American middle class and lower class?

Thoughts on DMV Health Care in extremis

In each case, the care was terrible. A sole lonely doctor or maverick nurse in two cases saved my life, but on the average the facilities were filthy, and the employees akin to those in the government-run post office or bank. And a strange thing occurred as well: often the staff became mad at the patient: ?Why did you come here with an appendix problem??; You should have not let your strep get out of control!?; ?If you don?t drink water, what do you expect!?; ?See what happens when you don?t take all your quinine pills!?.

It's rather funny that no one here in the U.S. is saying, "Let's emulate the Greek health system (or the Egyptian or the Turkish system). Perhaps there's a good reason for that.

Socialism will always blame the patient (just watch when it comes here), I suppose for drawing on collective resources, and to focus on public enemies whose weight, smoking, or lifestyle (I do not smoke or drink, but exercise and am of reasonable weight) have betrayed the public ideal. (Fat people, and smokers (except our President) will soon become as hated in the socialist mind as jet skis, those in their 80s who want a bypass, Yukons, Tahoes and investment bankers.)

This is already occurring now.


Europe is Europe, Because America is Not?

No, Europe should not only not be our model, but Euros know it should not be our model. A few brilliant Europeans whisper, ?Of course, it is lost here, since no addict insidiously hooked on government entitlement ever gives such largess up. But you over there still have a chance.? For a few Europeans, America?s military (drawing on fewer people and less territory and GDP than the expanded EU) is the only hope for Western defense. It?s where most life-saving drugs will emerge, new technologies are birthed, and huge sophisticated markets grow for European goods. So they have a stake in not allowing us to become like them.

Sadly, the U.S. is now bankrupt and is in the process of degenerating into a third world country. In the meantime, the European countries are liable to end up having a higher quality of life compared to the U.S. as the U.S. sinks.


The Not-so-Kind Face of Socialism

One final thought: I?ve never met a beatific equality-of-result person. They are usually grim and angry warriors determined to right cosmic wrongs, eager to demonize those who ?have too much?, convinced that the divine ends justify the demonic means.

Is that kind of like Ayn Rand portraying the evil collectivists in Atlas Shrugged as being ugly, ineffectual, mindless buffoons?

The road to socialism is not natural. It must be paved with the hard work of class envy, demonization of the successful, and obfuscation that each new massive spending program that will raise both taxes and deficits (that?s the point, after all, to create so much red ink that we must raise taxes and redefine what constitutes income) must be passed immediately, without delay, now-or-never to stave off Biblical hunger, plague, and flood.

The road to socialism will be paved with the economic destruction caused by having too many capitalist elements in the wrong places in nation's Mixed Economy. In the case of the United States, unrestricted international trade and mass immigration--Global Labor Arbitrage--combined with population explosion and its resultant Malthusian Forces (higher prices for land and resources) will act to transform the nation in to a third world economy. In other words, this aspect of capitalism is destroying the American middle class and creating a large and angry underclass.

Many of Mr. Hanson's criticisms of Europe are probably right on and appreciated, but he should also look at his own backyard. To hear Hanson tell it, America is a land of milk and honey with abundant opportunity. In reality tens of thousands of Americans can't afford or obtain health insurance, and tens of millions of Americans who want to work at middle class jobs, including those with colege degrees, are unable to find appropriate positions.


 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
If I wanted Europe I'd be there. Nice place to visit. I like America more the way it is. Anyway, if America became Europe who would Europeans demonize and laugh at to distract themselves?
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
If only it were true... But we are too ignorant and full of hicks... kinda like some of the posters here. Shill much? Can you make it any more obvious?
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Originally posted by: n yusef
If I read that correctly, the author visited Italy, Greece and Turkey, and extrapolated to the entirety of Europe. I've never heard of PAJAMAS MEDIA, but they must have a low editorial budget.

Victor Davis Hanson is a very respected author, historian and analyst, no matter who picks up his commentary. He is an outstanding commentator and well worth reading for his insight into history and current events. He is also extensively published in the U.S. and overseas and is likely one of the most brilliant contemporary intellectuals you can hope to have exposure to.

I was struck in reading this article as it rings very true to me, in a very down to earth way, a way that you may have to be an expat to fully appreciate it seems.

After I reviewed the body of work which Hanson has published I was considerably more impressed. He is not offering a dry, ersatz, intellectual perspective, he is offering a real life perspective, and to get such from one of the great intellectual explorers of our time is a privilege. I haven't met him, but this is one guy that I would like to meet and share a beer with!

I hadn't heard of Pajamas Media, either, nyusef. I think the term relates to the Internet community fact checking that occurred to throw Dan Rather out of a job at CBS after he deliberately distorted some story to support some President Bush libel with falsified documents.

"Pajamas Media's name is derived from a dismissive comment made by former news executive vice-president Jonathan Klein of CBS during the Killian documents affair: "you couldn't have a starker contrast between the multiple layers of checks and balances at 60 Minutes and a guy sitting in his living room in his pajamas"."

(Wiki is your friend, even if not always the source of choice!)

The guys/gals sitting in their pajamas fact checking the Internet turned out to be right and Rather was fired.

Hooray!

Pajamas Media Board members include many prominent bloggers and journalists, including Instapundit, Glenn Reynolds, CNBC's Larry Kudlow, Michael Barone of U.S. News & World Report, David Corn of The Nation, and Claudia Rosett (who helped investigate the United Nations' "Oil for Food" controversy).

Pajamas Media has had correspondents in as many as 48 countries and is beginning to syndicate original content in the manner of a news service, one of the first new media companies to do this. It has also added a list of PajamasXpress bloggers including historian Victor Davis Hanson, journalist Ron Rosenbaum, and actor Ron Silver.

Per Wiki.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
WhipperSnapper sez,

Many of Mr. Hanson's criticisms of Europe are probably right on and appreciated, but he should also look at his own backyard. To hear Hanson tell it, America is a land of milk and honey with abundant opportunity. In reality tens of thousands of Americans can't afford or obtain health insurance, and tens of millions of Americans who want to work at middle class jobs, including those with colege degrees, are unable to find appropriate positions.

I have to take more time to read more of Hanson's commentaries, but he seems not to have an agenda of "America Right or Wrong."

Rather he is comparing what he sees in many places around the world, not just the countries mentioned in this latest article, to both the reality of modern America and the historical antecedent.

Only some of his writing is of a cautionary note. He spends much of his time extolling what he finds worthwhile and he applies the lessons of history usefully.

What I find especially refreshing is that he is able to distill his observations in such a way that what he intends to say is communicated very clearly - something we can all emulate.

I am going to grab a couple of his books to read on vacation.
 

retrospooty

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2002
2,031
74
86
Originally posted by: PJABBER
SPAM, SPAM and more SPAM

Give it a rest... this forum is littered with your posts. Currently 8 threads by you - takee a break already.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I think in some ways we have become worse than Europe. If we applied to the EU they would deny us due to our deficit spending.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: retrospooty
Originally posted by: PJABBER
SPAM, SPAM and more SPAM

Give it a rest... this forum is littered with your posts. Currently 8 threads by you - takee a break already.

Originally posted by: Pens1566
blogspot.com

This. :thumbsup:

Edit: And 11 by my count. Maybe we should all just start posting blog-worthy material and drown him out?
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Originally posted by: PJABBER
OK, I could have written this article, but I didn't.


First you announce your delusions of grandeur, then speed down hill from there.:D
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Hedonism, late and long meals, and disco hours until the early morning... Is anyone else thinking of moving to Europe?

I'm curious as to what the non-European West has that's so superior to the above. Two weeks of vacation a year as opposed to four or six? A constant race with one's neighbours to have a bigger, flashier car and house? Bragging rights over who has the biggest and spendier military?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
When we had 90% income tax rates on the rich the working poor were paying 22%. People always seem to leave that out when they bring up this point.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
Originally posted by: Robor
.....Wah!

That's what you've been doing the past 8 years. Remember Phokus and Conjur? I don't remember seeing you complaining about their forum littering ya whiney hypocrite.
 

davestar

Golden Member
Oct 21, 2001
1,787
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
When we had 90% income tax rates on the rich the working poor were paying 22%. People always seem to leave that out when they bring up this point.

what's the relevence here?

Anyway, I never knew the marginal tax rate could be such a hard concept for some. Or that rampant deductions and loopholes could be so easily ignored when convenient.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: davestar
Originally posted by: Genx87
When we had 90% income tax rates on the rich the working poor were paying 22%. People always seem to leave that out when they bring up this point.

what's the relevence here?

Anyway, I never knew the marginal tax rate could be such a hard concept for some. Or that rampant deductions and loopholes could be so easily ignored when convenient.

People use the 1950's as an example that we can tax the rich at 90% and have a prosperous nation and something we should strive for again. Yet they never mention the bottom bracket of federal income tax sat at 20-22%.

Somebody brought up the 90% tax rate earlier in the thread.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: yllusI'm curious as to what the non-European West has that's so superior to the above.

People dying from lack of health care? Medical bankruptcies? Homelessness? More crime? People living in terror of losing their jobs and health insurance? Foreclosures? Fundamentalist Christians who want to transform the country into a Christian theocracy? A massive and growing underclass?

I just thought of something. We have Hollywood and Sarah Palin! Hooray!