Olympics:9-26-04 Hamm in Court Hearing on whether he must give up Gold Medal to South Korean

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
8-27-04 Paul Hamm Asked to Give Up Gold Medal

ATHENS, Greece - Gymnastics officials asked Paul Hamm to give up his gold medal as the ultimate show of sportsmanship, but the U.S. Olympic Committee told them to take responsibility for their own mistakes.

"I don't know of any comparison in any sport anywhere where you crown an athlete, crown a team and then say, `Oh, that was a mistake. Would you fix this for us?'" USOC chairman Peter Ueberroth said.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
What a cop-out!

Should the medal go to the athlete who won, based on fair judging? Yes.

Should the governing body refuse to act on its own screw-up and pressure a completely honest, deserving, spectacular athlete to do its dirty work? Absolutely not.

If they can't admit openly that an important mistake was made, and eat their own crow to fix it, there's no reason for Hamm to do anything at all.
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
0
0
Lets correct ALL the scoring errors in the Korean's routine then. The reviews have indicated that the Korean gymnast had both hands on the bar more than the 3 maximum that they are allowed to have.. thats a .2 deduction... So, give him his .1, and subtract .2...
 

Supahfreak

Golden Member
Jul 21, 2001
1,378
0
0
Paul and the Korean guy should just ask somebody good with metal to cut them in half and fuse the two together. The medals are tainted already so at least the Medal will more accurately represent what happened to them. Plus I think half Gold, half bronze might look cool.

FreAk:D
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Sounds to me like a bunch of Anti-American sentiment. The Europeans and even the Canadians hate it when the Americans win anything. I thought they should have kicked a couple of the judges like the Canadian juge off the judging bench. No matter what any athletes did they kept scoring everyone too low. They almost had a riot towards the end. I think they should pick judges from the world championships and other events where the person has proved he/she knows how to judge the events already. When they started off giving such low scores for the High Bar, you could tell something was wrong. Especially for some of the athletes form some of the Eastern Block Nations from the old Soviet Union.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: Crimson
Lets correct ALL the scoring errors in the Korean's routine then. The reviews have indicated that the Korean gymnast had both hands on the bar more than the 3 maximum that they are allowed to have.. thats a .2 deduction... So, give him his .1, and subtract .2...
Why would you turn this into a different debate?

There's a huge difference between judgement errors and changing the start value of an established routine.

I don't think it is in any way Hamm's responsibility to fix the mistake, but based on the way the judges rated the competitors actual performances, there's no question who should have received the gold medal.

If the governing body refuses to eat the crow needed to change the marks though, I think Hamm should keep the medal and keep it proudly; he has done nothing wrong, and his performance was brilliant.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
FIG is trying to unring the bell. :)

Hamm should keep his gold medal and the IOC should give the S.Korean a gold as well.

Next Olympics give out laurel wreaths to the top ten competitors and skip the stupid medals.

EDIT: Actually, I see the IOC has refused to give the S. Korean a gold medal.

-Robert
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Piasabird:

The Canadians don't HATE anything, unless it is American stupidity, which would put them on firm footing. :)

-Robert
 

Hugenstein

Senior member
Dec 30, 2000
419
0
0
Until Roy Jones Jr. gets his gold, any South Korean argument for olympic injustice is completely worthless.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
There's a huge difference between judgement errors and changing the start value of an established routine.

The only difference is that one set of judges sets the start value, while another gives deductions. The deductions are then taken from the start value to get the final score. (Yes, I've watched too much Olypmics stuff, shoot me.)
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
There's a huge difference between judgement errors and changing the start value of an established routine.

The only difference is that one set of judges sets the start value, while another gives deductions. The deductions are then taken from the start value to get the final score. (Yes, I've watched too much Olypmics stuff, shoot me.)

But the start value had previously been established at these Olympics, and was changed for the final, which I'm lead to believe is not supposed to happen.
 

nineball9

Senior member
Aug 10, 2003
789
0
76
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

But the start value had previously been established at these Olympics, and was changed for the final, which I'm lead to believe is not supposed to happen.

Start value is determined by the elements in the routine as performed. Some elements are required (press to handstand on the rings, inverted giants on the horiz bar, as examples). Any missed elements reduce the start value. Other requirements include a certain level of difficulty which may include combinations of different elements.

Deductions can add up for much more than the networks inform the viewing public, mostly because the viewing public doesn't understand them. For example the 3 stop rule - coming to a full stop more than 3 times in a routine - is a deduction.

Finally, under International/Olympic rules, bonus points are added for difficulty and combinations.
All these elements in the routine *as performed* determine the start value of the performance. The start value can not be previously established at the Olympics as the routine has not been performed! (The *rules* for determining start values are established before any international competition.)

(I know NCAA rules better than International/Olympic rules - I was a HS gymnast.)
 

GoingUp

Lifer
Jul 31, 2002
16,720
1
71
I love how every article that I read says that if the Korean had been given the .1 point higher start value, he would have won the Gold. They all convienantly forget to mention the fact that he should have had a .2 point deduction.

Where is the class of the S. Korean athlete? Why doesn't he come out and say "I should have scored lower on my routine from the .2 point deduction that wasnt taken?"
 

BlueWeasel

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
15,944
475
126
Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
I love how every article that I read says that if the Korean had been given the .1 point higher start value, he would have won the Gold. They all convienantly forget to mention the fact that he should have had a .2 point deduction.

Where is the class of the S. Korean athlete? Why doesn't he come out and say "I should have scored lower on my routine from the .2 point deduction that wasnt taken?"

Very good point...I didn't know about the 0.2 deduction until I read this thread. Why should the burden of sportsmanship (mentioned in the letter to Hamm) be put only on Paul Hamm's back?
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: BlueWeasel

Very good point...I didn't know about the 0.2 deduction until I read this thread. Why should the burden of sportsmanship (mentioned in the letter to Hamm) be put only on Paul Hamm's back?

and some folks say P&N is useless.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Hugenstein
Until Roy Jones Jr. gets his gold, any South Korean argument for olympic injustice is completely worthless.


EXACTLY! PAYBACK IS A BITCH!
:evil:
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
0
0
Originally posted by: Piano Man
I wish he would give it up, but it is his choice, so he can do whatever he wants.

Why? He didn't lose. The judges also failed to subtract for touching the bar with both hands more than 3 times.. Thats a mandatory deduction.. not a judgement call.. So actually, the Korean should be given +.1 for start value, and -.2 for the error.. They screwed up twice, and the Koreans only want them to correct ONE of the errors.
 

BlueWeasel

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
15,944
475
126
Originally posted by: Hugenstein
Until Roy Jones Jr. gets his gold, any South Korean argument for olympic injustice is completely worthless.

Jones had a very successful career as an amateur boxer, culminating in his representing the United States at the 1988 Seoul Olympic Games. His participation there proved to be controversial since, just as in Michael Carbajal's case, he lost a highly disputed decision in the final. Jones lost to a South Korean fighter, and a subsequent investigation led some of the judges to admit that they had accepted bribes from Korean officials to vote against Jones. Jones never accepted the silver medal, and his case, along with Carbajal's, led Olympic organizers to establish a new scoring system for Olympic boxing, a system that later began to be used on all amateur fights.

Interesting story....See! I've learned two things that I didn't know previously from the same P&N thread. :D
 

imported_tss4

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
1,607
0
0
Originally posted by: Piano Man
I wish he would give it up, but it is his choice, so he can do whatever he wants.

I've heard some people say that with all the angry sentiment towards american's these days it would be nice if he gave back the medal. Well, that's crap. Period. Its completely unfair for us to put the burden of international diplomacy on some poor athlete. He actually would have won if the score was taqllied correct. Even if it wasn't correct, do you think this is the first time this has happened? No, its part of the sport. Some times it goes your way and sometimes it doesn't. Otherwise, why even bother having judges. They could just have everyone go, then review the tapes afterwards.
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
LOL. For the Greeks and the Europeans this medal controversy has become a little Iraq!

But the desire is the same: to knock the US down a notch.
 

Minchenden

Member
Feb 17, 2002
71
0
0
So, let me see if I have this correct:

Hamm keeping the gold is ok because:

a) It is payback for an unrelated incident, in a completely different sport, which occurred 16 years ago.
So if in the next Olympics, or World Championship, a flawed judging decision, whether deliberate or not, gives a South Korean the gold and an American the bronze, that will be OK.

b) The fact that there was an error in the start value of the South Korean that would have given him the gold medal is irrelevant to this forum. This is equivalent to giving 4 points for a try in Rugby, when in fact a try is worth 5 points, and then losing by one point.

c) How come this forum are not clamouring for a review of ANY of Hamm?s performances on ANY apparatus (including the vault, which probably should have given him a mark well below 9.00, not 9.1+) but believe that a review of ONLY the South Korean?s performance on ONLY ONE piece of apparatus, is fair.

I?m betting that if they reviewed the tapes of all other competitors there are plenty of mistakes that the judges failed to deduct for. That is why they have 6 judges who do the deducting...they come up with different points. If they didn?t you would only need one judge instead of six. You compensate with human error by excluding the highest and lowest mark out of these six, and even though the judges are after human, every competitor stands on level ground here.
However, when it comes to the two judges who decide on start values and the one judge who conforms it, it?s a different story?because even though start values are very critical in deciding an athlete?s final score, there is no system that makes up for that error (like the exclusion of the highest and lowest mark as mentioned above). Again, the judges are human and can make mistakes, but when a mistake is made with the starting value, it?s utterly decisive in the final result. That?s why the three judges (including an American and one who happens to be very close to Hamm by some coincidence) were suspended...they made an error where errors are not permitted, and a stupid one as well. This means that even before he started his routine, Yang had already lost one tenth of a point

And BTW, I was very very surprised that Hamm received 9.1+ for his vault, and I don't even want to think about the score Nemov got in the UB competition for a much superior performance. Perhaps we should review the scores for the individual apparatus as well. Maybe Paul Hamm would end up without any medals.

Finally, I don?t think anyone seriously expects Hamm to give up his gold. However, giving up the gold, and freely acknowledging that he may not be the only legitimate Olympic Champion are two very different things. Sharing an Olympic Gold does not detract in any way.
Hamm said stubbornly he truly believes in his heart that he is the Olympic all-around champion, and he did his job with class and integrity. Maybe he did, (I disagree with the class bit) but so did Yang. Is the South Korean any less deserving? Are his Olympic dreams any less vivid? Why should he be deprived of something that he truly earned?

Paul Hamm COULD have become a true champion, one remembered many, many years from now. However, by this time next year, he will be forgotten and ignored, as he seems more attached to his rapidly tarnishing gold medal than to a sense of fair play and ethics. He is to the Olympic Gold as Gollum was to the One Ring, and showing the same obnoxious traits.

During the trampoline world championships in 2001, the federation changed the results at the request of the gymnast Irina Karavaeva, after she learned that she had won the gold
because of a judging error. She gave up her gold medal. That is the measure of a champion.