Oliver Stone Facebook Post:

Attic

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Jan 9, 2010
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Excuse my absence these past weeks. A combination of overwork, prepping the Snowden movie in Germany & England, a side trip to Moscow, and a devastating head cold have laid me low. Recovering over Christmas in California; winter sun helps.

Interviewed Viktor Yanukovych 4 hours in Moscow for new English language documentary produced by Ukrainians. He was the legitimate President of Ukraine until he suddenly wasn’t on February 22 of this year. Details to follow in the documentary, but it seems clear that the so-called ‘shooters’ who killed 14 police men, wounded some 85, and killed 45 protesting civilians, were outside third party agitators. Many witnesses, including Yanukovych and police officials, believe these foreign elements were introduced by pro-Western factions-- with CIA fingerprints on it.

Remember the Chavez ‘regime change’/coup of 2002 when he was temporarily ousted after pro and anti-Chavez demonstrators were fired upon by mysterious shooters in office buildings. Also resembles similar technique early this year in Venezuela when Maduro’s legally elected Government was almost toppled by violence aimed at anti-Maduro protestors. Create enough chaos, as the CIA did in Iran ‘53, Chile ‘73, and countless other coups, and the legitimate Government can be toppled. It’s America’s soft power technique called ‘Regime Change 101.’

In this case the “Maidan Massacre” was featured in Western media as the result of an unstable, brutal pro-Russian Yanukovych Government. You may recall Yanukovych went along with the February 21 deal with opposition parties and 3 EU foreign minsters to get rid of him by calling for early elections. The next day that deal was meaningless when well-armed, neo-Nazi radicals forced Yanukovych to flee the country with repeated assassination attempts. By the next day, a new pro-Western government was established and immediately recognized by the US (as in the Chavez 2002 coup).

A dirty story through and through, but in the tragic aftermath of this coup, the West has maintained the dominant narrative of “Russia in Crimea” whereas the true narrative is “USA in Ukraine.” The truth is not being aired in the West. It’s a surreal perversion of history that’s going on once again, as in Bush pre-Iraq ‘WMD’ campaign. But I believe the truth will finally come out in the West, I hope, in time to stop further insanity.

For a broader understanding, see Pepe Escobar’s analysis “The new European ‘arc of instability,’” which indicates growing turbulence in 2015, as the US cannot tolerate the idea of any rival economic entity http://bit.ly/1yBmpHa. You might also see “Untold History” Chapter 10 where we discuss the dangers of past Empires which did not allow for the emergence of competing economic countries.

Emphasis mine. Stones Facebook


If what he is getting at here is true, how much responsiblity do the citizens of a nation have over their runaway government? None of us can really stop our government from going in and toppling governments and putting in puppet systems to serve us.gov interests. Is ignorance an excuse for the american population when their government engages in perversion of ethics and morals to suit an agenda?

If the end benefit for americans is a higher standard of living is it then ok?
 
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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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whereas the true narrative is “USA in Ukraine.” The truth is not being aired in the West.

OS is just repeating Moscow's version. Everyone is the US who has cable/satellite can hear this "truth" by tuning in to RT (Russia's American news channel).

Fern
 

Black Octagon

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Dec 10, 2012
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If you truly call your country a democracy, then you are responsible for the actions of the government that represents you. If you do not feel and breathe that responsibility, you are at best a democracy only in name.

The United States government has involved itself in coups d'état - aimed at replacing one head of state with another that it more 'suitable' - for many, many decades.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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Oliver Stone, eh?

The most popularized vehicle for revisionist, conspiracy-nut laden history in contemporary times.
 

TreVader

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2013
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RT is pure Russian propaganda.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Ukranian president was a criminal. However, Putin is far worse. He is a walking Cold War anachronism. He wants to resurrect the "glory" of the USSR.

How can you complain about Ukraine's leaders when Putin kills hundreds in his false flag ops? And that's just the biggest offense I remember. He's done far worse.
 

Spungo

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2012
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It wouldn't surprise me if the Ukranian president was a criminal.
Indeed he is. You can't instigate a coup unless there are a lot of angry people.
Suppose Russia tried to start something similar to a CIA style overthrow in the US. Are you really angry enough to protest and throw fire bombs at the police? The answer is probably no. You would stay home, watch the protests on TV as they are suppressed, and that would be the end of it. People in Ukraine were more than ready to bomb things and shoot people to bring change. When you get to a certain breaking point, you don't really care who the replacement government is. You just want the king's head on a pike as soon as possible.

What's weird about the narrative we are fed is that it's clearly designed to start some kind of war. We put sanctions on Russia because they're likely helping the Russian population in east Ukraine, true? Flip that around. NATO is providing support to west Ukraine, so couldn't Russia saying we're doing exactly the same thing we accuse them of doing? Our leaders are going to get us all killed if they keep trying to push for war against Russia and China.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSOfQ7tgTLg
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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So ask yourself to what extent you are happy for those actions to have been done in your name

You should ask yourself why you so uncritically accept Russian propaganda.

Sure they lied to you about the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine. Sure they lied to you about the downing of that airliner. Sure they lied to you about dozens of other things, but I'm sure they are telling the truth now, right??
 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
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I don't know what you're on about. The U.S. support for regime change over the decades is something I learnt about while studying Politics at uni, years ago. Neither my lecturers nor the authors of my text books were Russian. Some were Americans, in fact.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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I don't know what you're on about. The U.S. support for regime change over the decades is something I learnt about while studying Politics at uni, years ago. Neither my lecturers nor the authors of my text books were Russian. Some were Americans, in fact.

no one knows what you're on about. Point is: what does that have to do with what is going on in Ukraine?
 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
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no one knows what you're on about. Point is: what does that have to do with what is going on in Ukraine?


I was responding to the OP, specifically this part:

"how much responsiblity do the citizens of a nation have over their runaway government? None of us can really stop our government from going in and toppling governments and putting in puppet systems to serve us.gov interests. Is ignorance an excuse for the american population when their government engages in perversion of ethics and morals to suit an agenda?"
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,061
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I don't know what you're on about. The U.S. support for regime change over the decades is something I learnt about while studying Politics at uni, years ago. Neither my lecturers nor the authors of my text books were Russian. Some were Americans, in fact.

Presumably by saying that in this thread you believed the U.S. was involved in such in Ukraine. If you didn't, your post was kind of a non-sequitur.
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
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We don't care, one only has to look at what happened in Egypt recently to see a whole country look away.
 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
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Presumably by saying that in this thread you believed the U.S. was involved in such in Ukraine. If you didn't, your post was kind of a non-sequitur.


Your presumption is incorrect. I interpret the OP as a guy/girl who read a Facebook post by Oliver Stone and was then inspired to ask him/herself some core political questions about the responsibility of people vis-à-vis their government. That fact that the Oliver Stone post was about Ukraine does not mean that this thread is about Ukraine.

Maybe my interpretation was wrong (the OP doesn't appear to have returned), but in any case I do NOT have enough information to say either way whether the US is involved in an attempted coup d'état in Ukraine right now. Regular citizens like myself are usually only privy to such information way after the fact.

But this thread is not about whether the US is really involved in a coup d'état in Ukraine. It's about what the implications of that being true are. My contention, based on education, is that we can already explore these implications because there is clear historical evidence of US governments already having done this in the past.

I thought this was clear to anyone who read my posts, and this thread, in a sequential and clear-minded manner...
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
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Your presumption is incorrect. I interpret the OP as a guy/girl who read a Facebook post by Oliver Stone and was then inspired to ask him/herself some core political questions about the responsibility of people vis-à-vis their government. That fact that the Oliver Stone post was about Ukraine does not mean that this thread is about Ukraine.

Maybe my interpretation was wrong (the OP doesn't appear to have returned), but in any case I do NOT have enough information to say either way whether the US is involved in an attempted coup d'état in Ukraine right now. Regular citizens like myself are usually only privy to such information way after the fact.

But this thread is not about whether the US is really involved in a coup d'état in Ukraine. It's about what the implications of that being true are. My contention, based on education, is that we can already explore these implications because there is clear historical evidence of US governments already having done this in the past.

I thought this was clear to anyone who read my posts, and this thread, in a sequential and clear-minded manner...

Unless anyone can prove that the US is responsible for stirring the pot in the Ukraine, then I'd say the evidence is far in favor of the Russians being the culprits in this case. Let's also consider the other facts:

1. Putin has been pretty vocal about what his territorial goals are. He rightfully stands up for the Russian occupation of the Crimea. The CIA can't influence that.

2. The Ukrainian rebels have gotten their hands on a lot of Russian military equipment seemingly out of nowhere. There have also been many reports of Russian soldiers inside the Ukraine. You can't get better evidence than that who's behind what.

3. Viktor Yanukovych's excess has been widely documented. Go see his palace if you don't believe me. The Ukrainian people had had enough.

The problem is that the evidence is all too clear, and the reasoning is too simple, but yet no one wants to believe it 'cause it's too dang simple. Putin is trying to rebuild the former USSR into its own new creation; a Greater Russia if you will.

Or keep thinking the CIA boogeymen are behind everything. The USA has their fair share of black marks, but we bring wealth where we go at least. The Russians are never to be trusted with Putin in power.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
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Oliver Stone, eh?

The most popularized vehicle for revisionist, conspiracy-nut laden history in contemporary times.
This. The very fact that Oliver Stone posits this should remove it from the realm of the likely.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Your presumption is incorrect. I interpret the OP as a guy/girl who read a Facebook post by Oliver Stone and was then inspired to ask him/herself some core political questions about the responsibility of people vis-à-vis their government. That fact that the Oliver Stone post was about Ukraine does not mean that this thread is about Ukraine.

Maybe my interpretation was wrong (the OP doesn't appear to have returned), but in any case I do NOT have enough information to say either way whether the US is involved in an attempted coup d'état in Ukraine right now. Regular citizens like myself are usually only privy to such information way after the fact.

But this thread is not about whether the US is really involved in a coup d'état in Ukraine. It's about what the implications of that being true are. My contention, based on education, is that we can already explore these implications because there is clear historical evidence of US governments already having done this in the past.

I thought this was clear to anyone who read my posts, and this thread, in a sequential and clear-minded manner...
lol Dan Rather, is that you?