OK, convince me why I sould buy Vista (because IMO, XP64 is just phenominal)

[JoLLyRoGer]

Cliffs for the lazy and the ho-hum disinterested...
1. Built a new PC
2. Loaded evaluation XP x64 and have been VERY favorably impressed
3. Why Vista64?
4. More details inside (which you obviously were never interested in in the first place if all you want to read are the Cliffs)
5. Your insight is requested.


Full Story:

I just finished up a new build a few days ago mostly intended to play an important role as a DAW in my home studio plus do some gaming from time to time.

After building I loaded the evaluation copy of WinXP x64 because a)It was free, b)I didn't have a spare OS laying around, c)I'm beyond the 2GB barrier, and d)Cakewalk Sonar6 Producer Edition recommends WinXP x64 by name although it is compatable with Vista too.

I had originally anticipated running Vista because I honestly did not expect driver support or stability to be very good for XP64 considering it was a niche OS at best but I though the 120 day evaluation might tie me over until I can drop $$$ on Vista. However, in the past few days I've been extremely impressed with XP64 to the point that I'm beginning to wonder why I should continue to even consider Vista.

I found drivers for every last bit of hardware I needed to including a Tascam MIDI/Controller surface that was already discontinued before XP64 was launched (by the same token I found Vista64 drivers as well).

Every stich of software I've loaded has worked absolutely flawlessly (both 32 and native 64 bit) which includes the following:
-Sonar 6Producer Edition (x64)
-Acronis 10 (x32)
-Disk Director 10 (x32)
-uGuru (x32)
-AntiVir (x64)
-CoolEdit 2000 (x32)
-Adobe Reader 8 (x32)

And when I launch a program, XP64 launches it quick and I mean "RIGHT NOW" quick! Infact everything I've done with this OS just flat out screams!

Another bonus is its still WindowsXP and although I've been using Vista off and on ever since RC1, and regularly for the past 6 months, I still very much prefer the look and feel of Windows XP. In fact, IMO the best thing that could possibly happen to Vista would be an XP "Classic" Theme.

So there you have it.... Obviously I will still need to eventually purshase an OS, but right now XP64 is beginning to look pretty damned attractive to me which means I'm in need of some very tangable and compelling reasons to consider purchasing Vista.

I suppose my biggest gripe with Vista is the new look and feel plus all of the nanny-hand-holding that goes on when I want to install something. Now I understand that much of this behavior can be altered or disabled, but I don't want to have to spend a month of researching and tweaking getting Vista work the way I want it to. I just want to boot it up and start "doing". That much said, my own personal experience with RC1, RC2, and Vista Home Premium thus far (all x32) has left me feeling less than impressed.


System Specs:

ABIT IP35 Pro
Intel Q6600 G0 (Intend to OC no more than 3.0GB 9x333 if at all)
4x 1GB Corsair XMS2 DDR2667 4-4-4-12
2X Seagate Barracuda 250GB SATA3.0 - RAID 0
ATI x1300Pro (this is just a gap-fill until I can afford a good video card plus it was given to me for free)
1X WD Caviar 500GB IDE133
On Board Sound (I use an outboard Firewire audio interface for recording and monitoring)
Corsair VX550 PSU

 

[mechBgon]

Security.

 

[VinDSL]

Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
Another bonus is its still WindowsXP...

Don't take this literally, but in a nutshell...

Windows XP x86 was Windows 2000 with a Teletubbies interface.

Windows XP Pro x64 was a subset of Windows Server 2003.

Windows Vista x86 is being developed in parallel with Windows Server 2008. (see XP Pro x64 above)

Windows Vista x64 is a totally different animal.

Most ppl don't 'buy' Vista. It comes *FREE* with their computer purchase.

The sweet spot is Vista Home Premium - the least problems - functionally equivalent to XP Media Center.

If I was going to *buy* Vista, I'd get Vista HP, then buy the X64 UPGRADE directly from Microsoft.

 

[VinDSL]

Take this literally; in a nutshell...

Originally posted by: mechBgon
Security.

 

[stash]

Windows Vista x64 is a totally different animal.

Not sure what you mean by this, but all architectures of Vista (x86, x64) are developed at the same time.

 

[JoLLyRoGer]

Originally posted by: VinDSL
Take this literally; in a nutshell...

Originally posted by: mechBgon
Security.

Speaking of nutshells, what are the security features that make Vista that much better than XP (in a nutshell) and at what cost in performance/usability?

Edit:BTW, I'm actively researching this as we speak so any pointers on what I should be reading up on would be very helpful. :thumbsup:

Also, I'm with stash.... not sure what you mean by Vista x64 is a totally different animal... Are you saying that Vista x64 is a different source tree entirely?

 

[Mem]

Gaming will be important in Vista down the road,I'm looking forward to DX11 etc..


My XP 64 bit CD is collecting dust,Vista x64 does everything and more,longer life span, better future support,security as already meantioned,better memory handling,nobody in their right mind would turn down all those features.
End of the day you can't please everybody.

I found drivers for every last bit of hardware I needed to including a Tascam MIDI/Controller surface that was already discontinued before XP64 was launched (by the same token I found Vista64 drivers as well).

Every stich of software I've loaded has worked absolutely flawlessly (both 32 and native 64 bit) which includes the following:
-Sonar 6Producer Edition (x64)
-Acronis 10 (x32)
-Disk Director 10 (x32)
-uGuru (x32)
-AntiVir (x64)
-CoolEdit 2000 (x32)
-Adobe Reader 8 (x32)

And when I launch a program, XP64 launches it quick and I mean "RIGHT NOW" quick! Infact everything I've done with this OS just flat out screams!

Another bonus is its still WindowsXP and although I've been using Vista off and on ever since RC1, and regularly for the past 6 months, I still very much prefer the look and feel of Windows XP. In fact, IMO the best thing that could possibly happen to Vista would be an XP "Classic" Theme.

XP is looking dated IMHO interface wise,my Vista launches applications fast (especially if you have enough ram).

Hmm lets see what I have installed on my Vista x64,lets start with some tough ball breakers.

Starforce drivers,TAG drivers ,SecuROM copy protection.

uTorrent
FOXIT Reader(better less bloated then Acrobat reader)
Nero 7 Premium
Avast AV free edition
Spybot 1.5
SUPERAntiSpyware
Quicktime
SpywareBlaster
Printmaster 16
CCleaner
Reg Cleaner 4.3
Speedfan
ALZip
Olympus Master 2
Gainward ExperTool
Spyder2Express calibration software
O&O Defrag 10 (64 bit version)
Firefox
Java,flash etc...
Thunderbird(64 bit version)

GAMES INSTALLED

Baldur's Gate+Exp pack
Baldur's Gate2 + Exp pack
Icewind Dale
Icewind Dale 2
Spellforce 2
Space Rangers 2
Morrowind+Exp packs
Oblivion + Shivering isles exp pack
Jade Empire
Jedi Academy
Jedi Outcast
Prey
UFO: Alien Invasion
Hellgate London
Anarchy Online
Star Wars Galaxies
Vanguard
World ofWarcraft +Exp pack
Starcraft + Brood Wars
Two Worlds
Jericho
UT2004
Avencast
UFO: Afterlight
Dungeon Runners
Mythos(beta online game)
SpaceForce Rogue Universe
UFO:EXtraterrestrials
Painkiller: Overdose
NWN2 +Mask of Betrayer Exp pack
NFS:Underground 2
LOTRO
Might & Magic 8
KOTOR
KOTOR2
Steam games(CS,DOD,TFC HL2 etc..)
Silverfall
NWN + all Exp packs
Bioshock
The Witcher
Archlord
Deus EX
Deus EX2
DarknLight
Stalker

I did have a few more software programs installed at one point that all worked fine,trial/free software like Ashampoo Studio Burning 7, Cyberlink PowerDirector 6,Power2Go,Kaspersky 7,Bitdefender 2008,Avira,ZipGenius and the list goes on etc...


My verdict Vista x64 is awesome .

 

[JoLLyRoGer]

Originally posted by: VinDSL

Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
Another bonus is its still WindowsXP...

Don't take this literally, but in a nutshell...

Windows XP x86 was Windows 2000 with a Teletubbies interface.

Windows XP Pro x64 was a subset of Windows Server 2003.

Windows Vista x86 is being developed in parallel with Windows Server 2008. (see XP Pro x64 above)

Windows Vista x64 is a totally different animal.

Most ppl don't 'buy' Vista. It comes *FREE* with their computer purchase.

The sweet spot is Vista Home Premium - the least problems - functionally equivalent to XP Media Center.

If I was going to *buy* Vista, I'd get Vista HP, then buy the X64 UPGRADE directly from Microsoft.

Does that work for OEM versions too?

 

[nerp]

Just retail. But you can buy x64 OEM or you can commit piracy and download an ISO and use the key but nobody here will recommend you do that.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer

Originally posted by: VinDSL

Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
Another bonus is its still WindowsXP...

Don't take this literally, but in a nutshell...

Windows XP x86 was Windows 2000 with a Teletubbies interface.

Windows XP Pro x64 was a subset of Windows Server 2003.

Windows Vista x86 is being developed in parallel with Windows Server 2008. (see XP Pro x64 above)

Windows Vista x64 is a totally different animal.

Most ppl don't 'buy' Vista. It comes *FREE* with their computer purchase.

The sweet spot is Vista Home Premium - the least problems - functionally equivalent to XP Media Center.

If I was going to *buy* Vista, I'd get Vista HP, then buy the X64 UPGRADE directly from Microsoft.

Does that work for OEM versions too?

My Vista x64 Home Premium is OEM version,my next major upgrade will be on my XP PC(2nd PC) ,OEM prices are great if you want to install on more then one PC ,I'll take 3x OEMs over 3x retails anytime for my 3x PCs.

Windows Vista x64 is a totally different animal.

Don't know what you mean by that,I did read Vista x64 actually has less bloat then Vista x68(32 bit version) due to no 16bit legacy software crap installed in the OS,some say having no 16 bit software installed improves stability ,who knows.

 

[Canterwood]

Originally posted by: Mem
Gaming will be important in Vista down the road,I'm looking forward to DX11 etc..

What exactly is so special about DX11?

We've hardly seen anything decent for DX10 yet, and todays' hardware can hardly cope with that atm.

 

[Jiggz]

If security is the only reason to upgrade, you can wait a little bit more until Vista is fully matured which is about 1-2 years from now, instead just download XP SP3 RC1 which is not a performance patch but more of a security patch for XP. Unless, of course you have money burning in your pocket or you happen to receive a free copy of Vista!

 

[Doom Machine]

don't want to have to spend a month of researching and tweaking getting Vista work the way I want it to. I just want to boot it up and start "doing"

this is what you want
it helps you make your own customized version of vista install disk. atm its mostly for removing unwanted features and applications. but you can integrate all the hotfixes, all yoru hardware drivers and some system tweaks...etc

http://vlite.net/about.html

 

[mechBgon]

Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer

Originally posted by: VinDSL
Take this literally; in a nutshell...

Originally posted by: mechBgon
Security.

Speaking of nutshells, what are the security features that make Vista that much better than XP (in a nutshell) and at what cost in performance/usability?

You can start with this: Vista lets you run as a non-Admin without needing to know any fancy tricks. If you were to run WinXP as a non-Admin, it would be far more secure than it is by default, but it's a chore. It's sort of amusing to hear people gripe that UAC is a chore in Vista, because if you were to actually run WinXP at the equivalent level of security, using the necessary RunAs tricks and so forth, you'd be wishing WinXP had UAC to make it as simple as Vista is. Been there, done that.

Beyond that, here's a white paper from Microsoft with a brief overview: http://www.microsoft.com/downl...77BBA34&displaylang=en

Info from Symantec on how a default Vista installation did against ~2000 malware samples they tested on it: http://www.symantec.com/enterp...vista_and_current.html

Info from Security Focus talking about WIC, which WinXP will never have: http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1887

SANS on "malvertising," making any site that has advertising partners a possible bogey, not just "those types of sites":
http://isc.sans.org/diary.html?storyid=3727

"Something on the boards is causing Java to load" (nothing conclusively proven, but this made me suspicious)


If you take the time to read security blogs, you'll probably conclude that the bad guys are generally getting badder, with no end in sight for that trend. I don't think it's wise to pick an 8-year-old OS just because it works like Windows95 did, rather than using the latest version which was built to give you a fighting chance against as-yet-unknown dangers.

Will you have to answer UAC prompts sometimes? Yes you will, just like you'll have to keep fastening your seatbelt every time you get into a car. Will you find that some of your favorite junkware doesn't work hassle-free on Vista? Yes you will, just like you'll have problems playing cassette tapes in your new Honda's CD changer :evil:

I realize that not everyone has my tolerance for breaking backwards-compatibility in favor of security. If you want to use XP Pro x64 Edition instead of Vista, here's security suggestions which I would (and do) use on WinXP systems.

 

[Dadofamunky]

Just my thoughts. I've installed Vista Home Premium 64-bit in my newest build and I couldn't be happier with it. Its driver support is much better and has a brighter future ahead of it than XP-64; all my drivers work fine thus far.

I bought the OEM version for $115. Eventually I'll do the upgrade to Ultimate, but for now, during the long burn-in period, Vista 64 looks A-OK to me. This is my platform for the future. Compared to what XP was like when THAT first came out, Vista 64 is much more stable.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: Canterwood

Originally posted by: Mem
Gaming will be important in Vista down the road,I'm looking forward to DX11 etc..

What exactly is so special about DX11?

We've hardly seen anything decent for DX10 yet, and todays' hardware can hardly cope with that atm.

My point is if you are a gamer then Vista offers you DX10, and even DX11 down the road ...the hardware DX10 wise will be improving as AMD/Nvidia keep releasing their newer models ,just like more games will also be DX10 etc down the road.

Remember samething was said about DX9 when that was first released,however video hardware/gaming moves forward as always.


You don't buy a new OS for 5 mins,its a fairly long term investment.

DX11 news ,no technical details however.

It is estimated that the true DX11 obviously card must only then start to next year, the massive outstanding DX11 game needs to wait till in 2010, is similar with the present stage DX10 speed.

Microsoft confirmation specifically, by what form (Vista SP2?)Issues DX11, also has not disclosed the new API characteristic slightly. We knew that DX10.1 will be the DX10 last promotion, moreover right and wrong crucial, then Microsoft will directly enter into DX11. According to report before this, the DX11 essential target was still reduces the game to develop the difficulty and the cost, simultaneously displays the new hardware?s ability, to enhance the physical effect and to play effectively AI, the enhancement picture detail order of complexity, to carry on the comprehensive optimization in view of the multiple-core processor.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Vista is starting to get very annoying with me. While I like the security and nicer gui, apps are a pain in the butt. Photoshop's got minor annoying issues, max 7 barely works, max 9 works "ok", truespace, while i hate it, i need it, for the most part is broken. It also likes to tab out of games for no reason (especially sims, freespace scp and morrowind). At least theres a trick to rivatuner to work without having to manually start it. Wish I could find the same for the annoying 'cannot connect to share drive....'

Oh ya and gotta love apps that can't remember their settings because they weren't logged in as admin.

edit: ya, got truespace working again. all these little nuisances are very annoying.

btw does anyone have a solution for the 'cannot connect to share drives" at startup?

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Scooby Doo
Vista is starting to get very annoying with me. While I like the security and nicer gui, apps are a pain in the butt. Photoshop's got minor annoying issues, max 7 barely works, max 9 works "ok", truespace, while i hate it, i need it, for the most part is broken.

Vista and Max do not mix well.
I use max every day for work, version 2008, which is supposedly vista compatible.
It has more problems than its worth under vista.
Have used Xp x64 for a long time now with Max and Maya and see no reason to change.
Vista offers nothing here.
XP x64 runs the programs without problems and response times are super quick.
When I can run vista for a week without an OS error or problem creeping up, then I will consider the switch.
For now it offers absolutely nothing for the workstation market.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
I had originally anticipated running Vista because I honestly did not expect driver support or stability to be very good for XP64 considering it was a niche OS at best but I though the 120 day evaluation might tie me over until I can drop $$$ on Vista. However, in the past few days I've been extremely impressed with XP64 to the point that I'm beginning to wonder why I should continue to even consider Vista.

This is one way that vista has actually benefited XP64.
Almost everything that has a vista 64 bit driver has a xp 64 bit driver.
People will say xp64 is an abandoned os, and thats why you should use vista.
Sorry, but thats not a good enough reason. Xp64 works and support for it from MS is ongoing and will continue for atleast another year. Maybe by then vista will be ready.

And when I launch a program, XP64 launches it quick and I mean "RIGHT NOW" quick! Infact everything I've done with this OS just flat out screams!

Thats something I noticed with xp64 the first time I ran it.
I'm not sure what its doing differently with the file system compared to xp32, but launching of explorer, programs , is instant.

Another bonus is its still WindowsXP and although I've been using Vista off and on ever since RC1, and regularly for the past 6 months, I still very much prefer the look and feel of Windows XP. In fact, IMO the best thing that could possibly happen to Vista would be an XP "Classic" Theme.

I use the windows classic theme. I prefer it as I don't need all the eye candy in my os. I just need the os to run the apps that I use and save all the resources for the applications.

Make sure you download service pack 2 for Xp x64 if you havent already.

 

[JoLLyRoGer]

Originally posted by: mechBgon

Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer

Originally posted by: VinDSL
Take this literally; in a nutshell...

Originally posted by: mechBgon
Security.

Speaking of nutshells, what are the security features that make Vista that much better than XP (in a nutshell) and at what cost in performance/usability?

You can start with this: Vista lets you run as a non-Admin without needing to know any fancy tricks. If you were to run WinXP as a non-Admin, it would be far more secure than it is by default, but it's a chore. It's sort of amusing to hear people gripe that UAC is a chore in Vista, because if you were to actually run WinXP at the equivalent level of security, using the necessary RunAs tricks and so forth, you'd be wishing WinXP had UAC to make it as simple as Vista is. Been there, done that.

Beyond that, here's a white paper from Microsoft with a brief overview: http://www.microsoft.com/downl...77BBA34&displaylang=en

Info from Symantec on how a default Vista installation did against ~2000 malware samples they tested on it: http://www.symantec.com/enterp...vista_and_current.html

Info from Security Focus talking about WIC, which WinXP will never have: http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1887

SANS on "malvertising," making any site that has advertising partners a possible bogey, not just "those types of sites":
http://isc.sans.org/diary.html?storyid=3727

"Something on the boards is causing Java to load" (nothing conclusively proven, but this made me suspicious)


If you take the time to read security blogs, you'll probably conclude that the bad guys are generally getting badder, with no end in sight for that trend. I don't think it's wise to pick an 8-year-old OS just because it works like Windows95 did, rather than using the latest version which was built to give you a fighting chance against as-yet-unknown dangers.

Will you have to answer UAC prompts sometimes? Yes you will, just like you'll have to keep fastening your seatbelt every time you get into a car. Will you find that some of your favorite junkware doesn't work hassle-free on Vista? Yes you will, just like you'll have problems playing cassette tapes in your new Honda's CD changer :evil:

I realize that not everyone has my tolerance for breaking backwards-compatibility in favor of security. If you want to use XP Pro x64 Edition instead of Vista, here's security suggestions which I would (and do) use on WinXP systems.

Thank you very much for that enlightenment!! Good links all around:thumbsup:
You make a very compelling case for Vista. Now the only thing that worries me about it is the mandatory driver signing for Vista64.

Not that this is a bad thing necessarily, I just know that some if not most of the drivers I needed to install relative to my recording gear were unsigned for XP64.

I suppose that doesn't mean this is the same case for Vista though. It wouldn't make much sense for a company to clam it has Vista64 drivers but yet leave them unsigned if it would render said driver useless!

I guess the jury will remain out for me then. I'll continue using up my evaluation version of XP64 for now and then to an upgrade to Vista 64 to see how it works out.

Is there also an evaluation version of Vista 64 available like Microsoft does for XP? This way I could try both before making a final purchase decision.

 

[VinDSL]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
Speaking of nutshells, what are the security features that make Vista that much better than XP (in a nutshell) and at what cost in performance/usability?

Speaking of nuts - MEET THE NUTS THAT INVENTED UAC (1:04 Silverlight Video)

It's an EXCELLENT apologia on the security features embedded in Vista!

 

[Scooby Doo]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Scooby Doo
Vista is starting to get very annoying with me. While I like the security and nicer gui, apps are a pain in the butt. Photoshop's got minor annoying issues, max 7 barely works, max 9 works "ok", truespace, while i hate it, i need it, for the most part is broken.

Vista and Max do not mix well.
I use max every day for work, version 2008, which is supposedly vista compatible.
It has more problems than its worth under vista.
Have used Xp x64 for a long time now with Max and Maya and see no reason to change.
Vista offers nothing here.
XP x64 runs the programs without problems and response times are super quick.
When I can run vista for a week without an OS error or problem creeping up, then I will consider the switch.
For now it offers absolutely nothing for the workstation market.

Vista definetely has teething problems, some people get by perfectly clean and other go "ouch ouch ouch ouch". LOL

Have you tried Max 9 with service pack 2? It seems to work ok, outside the fact it disabled Aero, I haven't seen any major hiccups, but then I'm sure you use it more extensively than I do.

BTW what is Max 2008, is that basically Max 10?

 

[Parasitic]

Seeing how you're on a 120-day trial and have to buy an OS anyways, why not just get Vista?

Plus it IS cheaper than XP64. Newegg has Vista HP64 for $111, while the XP64 is $139.

 

[JoLLyRoGer]

Originally posted by: Parasitic
Seeing how you're on a 120-day trial and have to buy an OS anyways, why not just get Vista?

Plus it IS cheaper than XP64. Newegg has Vista HP64 for $111, while the XP64 is $139.

My biggest concern is for compatability between Vista and some of my older devices. As I have stated, I have a very specific home studio recording agenda for this PC that is dependant upon all of my audio interface hardware working.

If I should run into a situation where the only drivers available for my studio related hardware happen to be unsigned AND since I'm firmly committed down the 64 bit path, then that becomes an instant show stopper for Vista.

This evaluation for me is about so much more than gaming or who has the slickest GUI or which OS implements security better. It's also about compatability with the studio equipment that I already have.

Now some may argue that I should just replace these items with something that is currently supported for Vista however, $1200 worth of equipment is not something I am willing to invest in twice when what I have is functioning perfectly well under XP64.

The point is this, there are definately some compelling reasons in this thread to use Vista - and I'm committed to giving Vista it's fair shot through an evaluation version but I can't afford to make a blind decision to buy Vista just because... If I'm going to spend money on a solution, then it has to be the right one for my intended use (which is a somewhat niche one).

If Vista checks out, then I'll go with it. OTOH, if Vista outmodes some $1000.00+ worth of studio equipment, then all of its advanced features and enhanced security becomes completely meaningless to me. Either way, I want to evaluate it like I've been able to evaluate XP64.

If I can't evaluate Vista for free and I'm forced to spend money on the devil I know and the one I don't, then I pick the devil I know because so far I've been able to verify that everything I need to work does in fact work under XP64.

 

[VinDSL]

Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
If I can't evaluate Vista for free and I'm forced to spend money on the devil I know and the one I don't, then I pick the devil I know...

~Cool

Stick with XP Pro x64...

Your antique 'studio equipment' will probably be MUCH happier with an antique OS!

See ya...