Oil down $30 in a month.

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Thump553
In an attempt to get this thread back on topic, I note the following:

-over the weekend, armed conflict broke out between Russia & Georgia and Russia bombed the oil pipeline going through Georgia. USA was very much a backer of this pipeline, and it's shutdown gives Russia far more control over the world's oil supply.

-As of right now, that armed conflict continues.

-After a brief jump up this morning (Monday), oil is now down for the day-and trading at it's lowest level since May.

This is pretty solid empirical evidence to me that the oil increases of the past several months were driven primarily by speculation, and had little to do with supply and demand. Comments? (on topic please)

This is actually a very good observation. I wouldn't say it's "solid empirical evidence" but it is a pretty good one to argue that oil prices are primarily based on speculation right now.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: mshan
Would that oil off our coasts be available in a year or two like queasy said, or would it take 10 - 15 years to get to market like my google search for "offshore drilling 10 years" might suggest (I chose 10 years because that's what I either saw or read somewhere).?

10 years.

Oil rigs off the coast of California could be producing in about a year or two years. Why? Because the rigs already exist and we already know exactly where the oil reserves there are and it is relatively easy to get to.

Oil off the coasts of Alaska, Florida, and elsewhere will take 5-10 years. Sounds like we should have gotten started yesterday.

Why?

We shouldn't be on oil at this point, period.

Ha, so just scrap the whole idea? How long do you think it would take to build infrastructure to support some new technology? 10+ years imho. How long until the current fleet of vehicles is finally off the road? Again, probably at least 10 years. You do realize that the millions of vehicles sold this year will not be suddenly replaced tomorrow if a new tech emerges on show room floors tomorrow, right?

 

[Special K]

Each futures contract requires someone to take the short position, right? If so, then who would be crazy enough to short oil while it was being bid up to a record $117/barrel?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Special K
Each futures contract requires someone to take the short position, right? If so, then who would be crazy enough to short oil while it was being bid up to a record $117/barrel?

Many short oil. For some odd reason people only think if speculators bet high and get it they make $$$ (which of course is true)...but fail to realize if they bet low, and it goes low, they make $$$. Its absolutely hilarious to read things like "I hope oil drops $50 so speculators lose their shorts!" hahaha naivity FTL. They make money either way.

And lets not forget its speculators who are causing oil to drop. I guess they arent so evil when they do what WE want eh?

 

[Thump553]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Thump553
This is pretty solid empirical evidence to me that the oil increases of the past several months were driven primarily by speculation, and had little to do with supply and demand. Comments? (on topic please)

The recent drop has more to do with a decrease in demand from Western countries (especially the US) and with a weakening Euro and strengthening dollar.

Demand has dropped enough to trigger a roughly 22% decline of the price of oil in a month? I'd love to see some figures that back that up. Demand has dropped, but a relatively trivial amount-and it's already coming back up in the US.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Thump553

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Thump553
This is pretty solid empirical evidence to me that the oil increases of the past several months were driven primarily by speculation, and had little to do with supply and demand. Comments? (on topic please)

The recent drop has more to do with a decrease in demand from Western countries (especially the US) and with a weakening Euro and strengthening dollar.

Demand has dropped enough to trigger a roughly 22% decline of the price of oil in a month? I'd love to see some figures that back that up. Demand has dropped, but a relatively trivial amount-and it's already coming back up in the US.

Yes, demand has dropped but it's not for a good reason. link. Remember though, I didn't say it was because of a drop in demand alone. I also mentioned the value of the US dollar.

Aug. 11 (Bloomberg) -- Crude oil fell more than $2 a barrel to a 14-week low on signs that the U.S. economic slump will extend into 2009, crimping fuel demand.

Oil prices retreated as a Bloomberg News survey showed that the U.S. will grow at an average 0.7 percent annual pace from July through December, half the gain in the first half of the year. Prices rose in early trading as five days of clashes between Russia and Georgia threaten alternative export routes from Azerbaijan, needed because of a pipeline fire.

``It's become clear that demand is cratering, which is making it hard to rally,'' said Rick Mueller, director of oil markets at Energy Security Analysis Inc. in Wakefield, Massachusetts. ``It's hard to imagine that the market will shrug off the potential loss of 1 million barrels a day of pretty good quality crude but that appears to be the case.''

Crude oil for September delivery fell $2.01, or 1.7 percent, to $113.19 a barrel at 12:36 p.m. on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Prices are up 58 percent from a year ago. Futures touched $112.83, the lowest since May 2.

Gasoline for September delivery fell 5.96 cents, or 2.1 percent, to $2.8278 a gallon in New York. Futures touched $2.8276, the lowest since May 1. Gasoline reached a record $3.631 a gallon on July 11.

Pump prices are following futures lower. Regular gasoline, averaged nationwide, fell 0.8 cents to $3.81 a gallon, AAA, the nation's largest motorist organization, said on its Web site. Pump prices reached a record $4.114 a gallon on July 17.

Dollar Rally

Prices also fell because the dollar climbed to the strongest against euro in more than five months, reducing the need for commodities as a hedge against inflation. The dollar increased on speculation the economic slowdown that started in the U.S. is spreading.

The dollar increased versus the euro for a fifth day, advancing 0.5 percent to $1.4931 at 12:39 p.m. in New York, from $1.5005 on Aug. 8. It touched $1.4907, the strongest level since Feb. 26.

China's July crude-oil imports fell 7 percent to about 3.25 million barrels a day, the lowest since December, the Beijing- based Customs General Administration of China said in a posting on its Web site today. China is the world's second-biggest oil consumer. The U.S. is the biggest.

``The primary driving factor of the market is the sluggish economy,'' said Gene McGillian, an analyst at TFS Energy LLC in Stamford, Connecticut. ``We are looking for any evidence that the economic contagion in the U.S. and Western Europe is spreading to the Far East, where demand has been strong. The Chinese demand numbers today may be a sign that demand is starting to flag in Asia.''

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Thump553
Demand has dropped enough to trigger a roughly 22% decline of the price of oil in a month? I'd love to see some figures that back that up. Demand has dropped, but a relatively trivial amount-and it's already coming back up in the US.

A few percent decrease in demand could trigger a much larger decrease in price, just as a small increase in demand could cause a much larger increase in price. This is true even if price and demand are linearly related, which I doubt.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Special K
Each futures contract requires someone to take the short position, right? If so, then who would be crazy enough to short oil while it was being bid up to a record $117/barrel?

Many short oil. For some odd reason people only think if speculators bet high and get it they make $$$ (which of course is true)...but fail to realize if they bet low, and it goes low, they make $$$. Its absolutely hilarious to read things like "I hope oil drops $50 so speculators lose their shorts!" hahaha naivity FTL. They make money either way.

And lets not forget its speculators who are causing oil to drop. I guess they arent so evil when they do what WE want eh?

Right, but when oil was on a record runup to $117/bbl, anyone who short oil during that time would have lost big, right? Yet someone had to take the corresponding short position on all of those long contracts, right?

Also, speculators may be causing oil to drop now, but they aren't really doing us any favors if it only drops to the level it was at before they bid it up in the first place. Now if they bid it down to $50/bbl or less, then maybe we can thank them

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Special K
Each futures contract requires someone to take the short position, right? If so, then who would be crazy enough to short oil while it was being bid up to a record $117/barrel?

Many short oil. For some odd reason people only think if speculators bet high and get it they make $$$ (which of course is true)...but fail to realize if they bet low, and it goes low, they make $$$. Its absolutely hilarious to read things like "I hope oil drops $50 so speculators lose their shorts!" hahaha naivity FTL. They make money either way.

And lets not forget its speculators who are causing oil to drop. I guess they arent so evil when they do what WE want eh?

Right, but when oil was on a record runup to $117/bbl, anyone who short oil during that time would have lost big, right? Yet someone had to take the corresponding short position on all of those long contracts, right?

Also, speculators may be causing oil to drop now, but they aren't really doing us any favors if it only drops to the level it was at before they bid it up in the first place. Now if they bid it down to $50/bbl or less, then maybe we can thank them

SemGroup went broke shorting oil. They were only off on timing by a few weeks.

But to answer your question, much of the sell side of the oil contracts are by physical deliverers of oil and oil funds locking in their profit.

I honestly don't think oil can trade at $50 anymore, especially after OPEC now has data that the global economy can withstand $100+ oil.

 

[Vic]

The plummeting price of oil is related to greater bust of the commodities bubble, and NOT to any other politically-driven agenda, i.e. like putting the oil companies into the negotiation 'driver's seat' WRT to mineral rights that can't possibly be exploited for at least a decade. We should drill, of course, but not by selling ourselves further into slavery with Big Oil just so persons lacking personal responsibility can continue to live their careless lifestyles on our dime (and yes, I'm talking to all of you who pretend you NEED a 30 mile plus commute).

Supply and demand factor into every market variable, so of course those spinning a political agenda can always over-emphasize those factors. However, one could also just as easily say that supply and demand is what inflated the housing market. That still doesn't explain what happened after speculation pushed that inflation well past basic market fundamentals and into bubble-land, as we also saw with commodities this spring.

Relief for consumers: prices falling

Relief for consumers: prices falling


By Ron Scherer Mon Aug 11, 4:00 AM ET

New York - After sprinting to record levels this spring, the prices for basic commodities have now fallen 20 to 30 percent.

Prices are now lower on staples such as rice, wheat, corn, and soybeans. Also down are prices for metals such as aluminum, zinc, and copper. The commodity almost everyone follows ? oil ? is off nearly 20 percent as well, dropping Friday to its lowest level since May 1.

Falling commodity prices have important economic implications. They may indicate that the global economy ? especially in terms of the role played by fast-growing countries such as China ? is beginning to slow. The prices also take some pressure off the Federal Reserve to hike interest rates to counter inflation. Last Tuesday, the Fed kept short-term rates unchanged, but it did indicate it was still concerned about inflation.

The decline in commodity prices, if it continues, could also give consumers a little more money in their wallets to pay for something other than gasoline and groceries.

"The falling prices helps shore up consumer spending and also has an effect on inflation," says Jay Bryson, global economist at Wachovia Economics Group in Charlotte, N.C. "The Fed probably does not need to tighten interest rates now."

The prospect of interest rates remaining at low levels helped ignite a significant rally in the stock market last Tuesday, when the Dow Jones Industrial Average climbed 331 points. On Friday, the rally continued, with the Dow climbing 302.89 points to close the week at 11734.32.

Although it may be too soon for the falling prices to be reflected in national inflation statistics, some of them are starting to work their way through to Americans' wallets. Last week, for example, King Arthur Flour reduced the prices on four grades of its product by 15 percent. On April 1, the company, which makes premium flour, had increased prices by 46 percent. "That price increase did not cover the difference in our costs," says Michael Bittel, senior vice president and general manager of the Norwich, Vt., company. Nevertheless, King Arthur Flour went ahead with a price decrease. "We were hoping the price would come down and we could pass that reduction back to our customers," Mr. Bittel says.

Good conditions for growing crops are partly why the grain markets have dropped in price, says William Lapp, president of Advanced Economic Solutions in Omaha, Neb. "We've had frequent rain events and no persistent heat to affect yields, so the crop is off to a decent start," says Mr. Lapp, adding, "But the questions remain: Will we have a long enough growing season since it's been cooler than normal, and how much of the crop was drowned out this spring?"

On Tuesday, some of the questions will be answered when the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) gives its first official crop report. "Usually they are accurate to within about 5 percent of the crop estimate," says Lapp, a former chief economist at ConAgra Foods.

Despite the current decline in grain prices, they remain high on a historical basis. For example, corn prices are historically between $2 and $3 a bushel. They are now $5 a bushel, down from $8 a bushel. "It's kind of like calling gasoline at $3.50 a gallon cheap," Lapp says.

Rice, another key food commodity, has also declined in price. Earlier this year, rough rice was selling for as much as $25 per 100 pounds on the Chicago Board of Trade. Now, it's close to $16 per 100 pounds, a decline of 36 percent. However, it is still about 60 percent higher than it was last year at this time.

"There was real concern about the Asian crops [and] strong import demand from the Philippines. And people went into a panic mode over food security concerns," says Tom Tice, director of food grains analysis at the USDA in Washington. "Now, the panic-buying is out, and importers are waiting for the crops from Thailand and Vietnam."

The new rice crop is being harvested in Texas and parts of Southeast Asia. The rice crop from Arkansas will not come until late September, about three weeks later than normal. But, Mr. Tice says, in mid-July it appeared that the crop conditions were comparable to last year, which was a very good year. On Tuesday, the USDA will be releasing new estimates.

Even though some commodities have come down in price, some of the reductions have yet to be reflected in retail prices ? for example, in copper and plastic piping. That's the case at Mayer Malbin Inc., a leading supplier of pipes, valves, and fittings in Long Island City in New York, says Jonathan Gordon, a vice president.

"We're seeing more increases, not falling prices," Mr. Gordon says. "Maybe from its high the price is down 10 percent, but we've seen price increases at the wholesale level of 40 percent to 50 percent since the beginning of the year. The basic cost to build something is so much higher than six months ago."

Even though prices are much higher in Portland, Ore., Dan O'Brien, president of Current Electrical, expects to see a "softening." "Demand is down, so they have to do something," says Mr. O'Brien, whose products include copper, aluminum, and steel.

Ken Simonson, chief economist at the Associated General Contractors of America, says he is getting reports of increases in wallboard, an essential element in the construction industry. "We've gotten several examples of increases for August, September, and October of 10 to 12 percent each month," he says. "But I find it extremely hard to believe the price increases will stick given the weak housing market."

 

[Mark R]

Originally posted by: Special K

Right, but when oil was on a record runup to $117/bbl, anyone who short oil during that time would have lost big, right? Yet someone had to take the corresponding short position on all of those long contracts, right?

Although every purchase (to take a long position) must have a corresponding sale, that sale doesn't necessarily have to be from someone taking a short position.

It may be from someone who took a long position at a lower price and is taking profits.

Alternatively, it maybe someone in the oil business who is selling a contract, on the basis that they have physical oil in stock, or in the ground ready to be pumped, and that the future can be covered by the oil. (Either by delivering the oil on maturity, or by taking the profit/loss on the future and selling at spot - the net result in that case being equivalent to having delivered the oil at the contract price)

It's common practice for oil producers to hedge their position by selling futures (even into a rising market, although this wouldn't be the ideal solution), as this protects them from unexpected falls in price, and ensure that they receive a predictable cashflow in the future. Of course, they may get the hedges wrong - Semgroup recently went broke selling futures to cover their production and refining of oil. It looks like they badly misjudged their strategy as they lost huge - or I suspect they took a speculative short position in addition to their normal hedges, and mistimed the market.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Special K
Each futures contract requires someone to take the short position, right? If so, then who would be crazy enough to short oil while it was being bid up to a record $117/barrel?

They could layer on the "bets", using offsetting contracts.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Mark R

Originally posted by: Special K

Right, but when oil was on a record runup to $117/bbl, anyone who short oil during that time would have lost big, right? Yet someone had to take the corresponding short position on all of those long contracts, right?

Although every purchase (to take a long position) must have a corresponding sale, that sale doesn't necessarily have to be from someone taking a short position.

It may be from someone who took a long position at a lower price and is taking profits.

Alternatively, it maybe someone in the oil business who is selling a contract, on the basis that they have physical oil in stock, or in the ground ready to be pumped, and that the future can be covered by the oil. (Either by delivering the oil on maturity, or by taking the profit/loss on the future and selling at spot - the net result in that case being equivalent to having delivered the oil at the contract price)

It's common practice for oil producers to hedge their position by selling futures (even into a rising market, although this wouldn't be the ideal solution), as this protects them from unexpected falls in price, and ensure that they receive a predictable cashflow in the future. Of course, they may get the hedges wrong - Semgroup recently went broke selling futures to cover their production and refining of oil. It looks like they badly misjudged their strategy as they lost huge - or I suspect they took a speculative short position in addition to their normal hedges, and mistimed the market.

It was speculative division that went broke. A lot of the oil co's have speculative divisions. SemGroup shorted a little too early...I mean they were correct about oil, but timing and volatility killed them.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Vic
The plummeting price of oil is related to greater bust of the commodities bubble, and NOT to any other politically-driven agenda, i.e. like putting the oil companies into the negotiation 'driver's seat' WRT to mineral rights that can't possibly be exploited for at least a decade. We should drill, of course, but not by selling ourselves further into slavery with Big Oil just so persons lacking personal responsibility can continue to live their careless lifestyles on our dime (and yes, I'm talking to all of you who pretend you NEED a 30 mile plus commute).

Supply and demand factor into every market variable, so of course those spinning a political agenda can always over-emphasize those factors. However, one could also just as easily say that supply and demand is what inflated the housing market. That still doesn't explain what happened after speculation pushed that inflation well past basic market fundamentals and into bubble-land, as we also saw with commodities this spring.

I had no idea the saber rattling with iran caused all the commodities to go up and not just oil.....

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: charrison
I had no idea the saber rattling with iran caused all the commodities to go up and not just oil.....

Originally posted by: Vic
Gas prices jumped up this year due to unchecked speculation and Bush's saber-rattling with Iran.

Sometimes I wonder which is the greater socialism. Welfare, or people who expect govt to protect their financially-irresponsible lifestyles. Then I remember that they're both the same thing.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Vic
The plummeting price of oil is related to greater bust of the commodities bubble, and NOT to any other politically-driven agenda, i.e. like putting the oil companies into the negotiation 'driver's seat' WRT to mineral rights that can't possibly be exploited for at least a decade. We should drill, of course, but not by selling ourselves further into slavery with Big Oil just so persons lacking personal responsibility can continue to live their careless lifestyles on our dime (and yes, I'm talking to all of you who pretend you NEED a 30 mile plus commute).

Supply and demand factor into every market variable, so of course those spinning a political agenda can always over-emphasize those factors. However, one could also just as easily say that supply and demand is what inflated the housing market. That still doesn't explain what happened after speculation pushed that inflation well past basic market fundamentals and into bubble-land, as we also saw with commodities this spring.

I had no idea the saber rattling with iran caused all the commodities to go up and not just oil.....

:laugh:

 

[Vic]

I'm confused, Dave... are you upset that you were wrong and oil continued its fall today?

BTW, I'm calling for $85/bbl by October. Feel free to mark it on your calendar or whatever.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Vic
I'm confused, Dave... are you upset that you were wrong and oil continued its fall today?

BTW, I'm calling for $85/bbl by October. Feel free to mark it on your calendar or whatever.

The only thing that upsets me is the criminals getting away with all this as well as their supporters.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: charrison
I had no idea the saber rattling with iran caused all the commodities to go up and not just oil.....

Originally posted by: Vic
Gas prices jumped up this year due to unchecked speculation and Bush's saber-rattling with Iran.

Sometimes I wonder which is the greater socialism. Welfare, or people who expect govt to protect their financially-irresponsible lifestyles. Then I remember that they're both the same thing.

But given most traded commodities experienced a price curve similar to oil, it seems saber rattling with iran played very little part in the price run up. Speculation no doubt played a part, but iran had very little to do with the run up of price of oil.

Speculation played a part no doubt, but so did world demand. So did the demand destruction for oil.

You may want to blame Bush for this, but he is not to blame for all the worlds Ills.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: charrison
I had no idea the saber rattling with iran caused all the commodities to go up and not just oil.....

Originally posted by: Vic
Gas prices jumped up this year due to unchecked speculation and Bush's saber-rattling with Iran.

Sometimes I wonder which is the greater socialism. Welfare, or people who expect govt to protect their financially-irresponsible lifestyles. Then I remember that they're both the same thing.

But given most traded commodities experienced a price curve similar to oil, it seems saber rattling with iran played very little part in the price run up. Speculation no doubt played a part, but iran had very little to do with the run up of price of oil.

Speculation played a part no doubt, but so did world demand. So did the demand destruction for oil.

You may want to blame Bush for this, but he is not to blame for all the worlds Ills.

He let the criminals do this unabated.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: charrison
I had no idea the saber rattling with iran caused all the commodities to go up and not just oil.....

Originally posted by: Vic
Gas prices jumped up this year due to unchecked speculation and Bush's saber-rattling with Iran.

Sometimes I wonder which is the greater socialism. Welfare, or people who expect govt to protect their financially-irresponsible lifestyles. Then I remember that they're both the same thing.

But given most traded commodities experienced a price curve similar to oil, it seems saber rattling with iran played very little part in the price run up. Speculation no doubt played a part, but iran had very little to do with the run up of price of oil.

Speculation played a part no doubt, but so did world demand. So did the demand destruction for oil.

You may want to blame Bush for this, but he is not to blame for all the worlds Ills.

I already discussed this, and you even quoted it, so it is IMO pretty disingenuous of you to play this bit now. Especially the blame Bush for all the world's ills straw man. I suppose that's the best you could come up with when you don't actually know anything about the subject at hand and are just looking to grasp at any straw you can...

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: charrison
I had no idea the saber rattling with iran caused all the commodities to go up and not just oil.....

Originally posted by: Vic
Gas prices jumped up this year due to unchecked speculation and Bush's saber-rattling with Iran.

Sometimes I wonder which is the greater socialism. Welfare, or people who expect govt to protect their financially-irresponsible lifestyles. Then I remember that they're both the same thing.

But given most traded commodities experienced a price curve similar to oil, it seems saber rattling with iran played very little part in the price run up. Speculation no doubt played a part, but iran had very little to do with the run up of price of oil.

Speculation played a part no doubt, but so did world demand. So did the demand destruction for oil.

You may want to blame Bush for this, but he is not to blame for all the worlds Ills.

I already discussed this, and you even quoted it, so it is IMO pretty disingenuous of you to play this bit now. Especially the blame Bush for all the world's ills straw man. I suppose that's the best you could come up with when you don't actually know anything about the subject at hand and are just looking to grasp at any straw you can...

I played this bit because it is true. There is far more involved with the price of oil than just who is sitting in DC and it is quite disingenuous of you to claim otherwise.

Let me know how anyone in DC is as fault for rising world demand.
Let me know how anyone in DC is at fault for lack of oil field investnment worldwide due to low prices in the 90s.
Let me know how anyone in DC is at fault because choose bigger cars because gas was cheap in the 90s?
Let me know how anyone in DC is at fault because sweet crude became less abundant and sour crude became more abundant.

In the end you are trying to peg a large potion of high oil prices on something that that had little effect on them. There are far larger overriding factors involved and you know that.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: charrison
I played this bit because it is true. There is far more involved with the price of oil than just who is sitting in DC and it is quite disingenuous of you to claim otherwise.


All of your talking points have been debunked thoroughly.


Let me know how anyone in DC is as fault for rising world demand.

The demand game has been clearly shown to be bunk. You cannot sow us one place out of oil anywhere. Even where pipelines have been blown up.


Let me know how anyone in DC is at fault for lack of oil field investnment worldwide due to low prices in the 90s.

You really think apologizing for these corporations that control the GOP is going to help your talking points?


Let me know how anyone in DC is at fault because choose bigger cars because gas was cheap in the 90s?

GM, Ford and Chysler are paying the price for being in bed with the GOP and Saudi's.
Unfortunately it is the American workers of these companies paying most of the price.

It is 100% the fault of DC for colluding with these companies to forget how to make 50 mpg cars and replace them with 20mpg and less cars.


Let me know how anyone in DC is at fault because sweet crude became less abundant and sour crude became more abundant.

Again show us where anyone has run out of oil to refine. You can't.


In the end you are trying to peg a large potion of high oil prices on something that that had little effect on them. There are far larger overriding factors involved and you know that.

In the end your GOP and Coprporate apologizing is getting you nowhere finally.

 

[ElFenix]

GM ford and chrysler are in bed with the saudis? do you even believe your own spew or are you just trying to get posts like this one?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic
I'm confused, Dave... are you upset that you were wrong and oil continued its fall today?

BTW, I'm calling for $85/bbl by October. Feel free to mark it on your calendar or whatever.

The only thing that upsets me is the criminals getting away with all this as well as their supporters.

If they are criminals, what laws have the broken?