Oh the humor. Galileo scambling codes cracked.

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Martin
Again, lets go over some things:
-They did not want to use GPS because the US retains the right to turn it off partially or fully whenever they want. If parts of your country's infrastructure depends on global positioning, that is simply not acceptible.
-Galileo has moved a bit beyond being a purely an EU project and has China, India and a number of other countries involved as well.
-This isn't expensive - total cost for Galileo is estimated at ?3B, with the cost being split between many goverments. The result is they would get pretty good bang-for-the-buck, even if they did not charge for the high-precision signal.
-Everyone knows the US is upgrading GPS, but issue of GPS being under US Military control will still be there.
Countries do not want their infrastructure to be dependent on the US military, so a few hundred mil for R&D is pretty good value.

If you still don't understand the central issue here, ask your self this: Would you like it if the US Coast Guard or FEMA were dependent on a system run by the French military?

As well as Russia in that list of funding countries. And I think China has launched its own GPS system known as Compass. Which means CHina may or may not be on the bandwagon to the end. Who knows?
Generally though as a military expense 3 billion is a big chunk of change for most of the countries listed.

But as you said, who wants to be beholden to the Evil Americans.......

dude, you still don't understand it. The German govt. has a project running to use GPS to collect taxes on toll ways. You must have some working brain cells to understand that they don't want to be dependant on the US military.

 

[chcarnage]

Specop 007, did you know that the US let ICANN shut down the top level domains of Afghanistan and Iraq before the invasions? That the US military bombed the only Somalian telco and cut them off the international phone networks and the internet? Why should anyone expect the US military to "play fair" in a confrontation? There are some fields where risks below one-tenth of a percent matter and modern communication and positioning technology is among these things. Even this low risk dependency apparently is worth some billions. This has not much to do with the current European perception of the US.

For satellite navigation users around the world Galileo is good news because it provides them with some reliability in case of a malfunction or politically caused shut down of either system.

I don't see a big potential for economic competition between the two systems. The basic service - positioning - will remain the only free one. Every additional feature (uploads, improved reliability, and other funky stuff) will cost or not be available to civilian customers at all.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Martin
Again, lets go over some things:
-They did not want to use GPS because the US retains the right to turn it off partially or fully whenever they want. If parts of your country's infrastructure depends on global positioning, that is simply not acceptible.
-Galileo has moved a bit beyond being a purely an EU project and has China, India and a number of other countries involved as well.
-This isn't expensive - total cost for Galileo is estimated at ?3B, with the cost being split between many goverments. The result is they would get pretty good bang-for-the-buck, even if they did not charge for the high-precision signal.
-Everyone knows the US is upgrading GPS, but issue of GPS being under US Military control will still be there.
Countries do not want their infrastructure to be dependent on the US military, so a few hundred mil for R&D is pretty good value.

If you still don't understand the central issue here, ask your self this: Would you like it if the US Coast Guard or FEMA were dependent on a system run by the French military?

As well as Russia in that list of funding countries. And I think China has launched its own GPS system known as Compass. Which means CHina may or may not be on the bandwagon to the end. Who knows?
Generally though as a military expense 3 billion is a big chunk of change for most of the countries listed.

But as you said, who wants to be beholden to the Evil Americans.......

You're such a child...

And you're such an intellectual beacon.....

 

[0roo0roo]

Airbus builds the A380 superjumbo
Oh my God, I hope it will crash, the 747 is way cooler, go Boeing and GO USA GO USA

well yea, it was heavily subsidized by european government to attack our industry. so you cant expect us to like it. now the french are doing the same going after google with their search engine.

and of course the eu is fining microsoft millions each day now still😛
economic warfare.

 

[B00ne]

Thats right our toll system for trucks depends on GPS - Imagine there is some kind of war and the US decides to restrict the GPS - the loss in toll income in Germany alone could cover the expenses for a whole GPS system....
good enough a reason?

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: B00ne
Thats right our toll system for trucks depends on GPS - Imagine there is some kind of war and the US decides to restrict the GPS - the loss in toll income in Germany alone could cover the expenses for a whole GPS system....
good enough a reason?

No, no, listen to Specop here. German politicians aren't supporting Galileo because they want their tax collection to be independent of what the US military is doing - they're supporting it because they all just sit around and tell themselves "that'll show those evil americans!"

Originally posted by: Specop 007
And you're such an intellectual beacon.....

A number of poeple have given you good reasons why Galileo exists and why its needed. You can't think of any rational counter argument, so all you can do is sprout off bullshit of "evil americans". So yes, you are a ****** child.

 

[0roo0roo]

is it really good to become so dependent? then you cant turn it off when another country decides to use it to guide their missles😛

 

[SampSon]

It's going to take them until 2010 to get this going?
Boy are they way behind the curve.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Americans like Specop 007 make me want to carve the American out of myself with a sharp knife.
Thank God we're not all this small minded.

Why would any sovereign nation(s) want to be dependent on another nation for a technology vital to their national and economic security if they can help it?

Why would we expect other nations to do or accept things we would never do or accept? Would the US military be willing to hand over the controls of it's GPS to the Euros? Of course not.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
well yea, it was heavily subsidized by european government to attack our industry.

You are aware that parts of American industry are subsidized, either directly or by tax breaks, at the detriment of industry in other nations? Airlines and agriculture are two quick examples.

Or is that something you think only the Euros do?

 

[rahvin]

Selective availability isn't going to be turned on system wide unless a hostile nation is actively trying to use the system to target missles using the system, either at the US or it's allies. The selective availability excuse has ALWAYS been a red herring to distract from the real purpose which was a higher accuracy system (GPS isn't accurate without the use differential GPS which involves setting of radio transmitters on known points and isn't going to be done for anything other than surveying). The application Galileo was envisioned for was accurate use in situations like airplane nightime navigation/autopilot and to primarily create a system that was envisioned to make a substantial amount of money with highly accurate positioning. That was until the US millitary announced that they were going to create GPS 2.0 and dramatically improve the current system to the level that Galileo is proposing but without charging.

Because the GPS system and Galileo share the same frequency the US and Europeans agreed that there would be a free portion of the Galileo system (something that wouldn't even exist had the US government not pressured the Europeans on it). What has happened though is that those codes haven't been released and in fact some open source material was provided but there was a license statement that barred commercial use of the system without paying the Galileo partners. Although the chest beating by those supporting the GPS system is just silly it's astounding that those of you defending Galileo don't recognize that it's just as bad. Galileo has as many faults as GPS, but I'll tell you one thing, I prefer the system that's at least free even if the government can make it wildly inaccurate if someone decides to use it for missle guidance. The fact is the US government isn't ever going to turn selective availability on unless someone is actively fireing missles using it as guidance, to much of the US economy depends on the system and will not doubt be equally dependent on GPS 2.0.

http://www.gpsdaily.com/reports/Researchers_Crack_Galileo_Code_999.html

The GIOVE-A (Galileo In-Orbit Validation Element-A) navigational satellite is a prototype for 30 spacecraft that by 2010 will compose Galileo, a $4 billion joint venture of the European Union, ESA and private investors.

Galileo has been billed as Europe's answer to the U.S. GPS system. Because GPS satellites, which were put into orbit by the Department of Defense, are funded by U.S. taxpayers, the signal is free - consumers need only purchase a receiver.

Galileo, on the other hand, must make money to reimburse its investors - presumably by charging a fee for PRN codes.

Because Galileo and GPS will share frequency bandwidths, Europe and the United States signed an agreement whereby some of Galileo's PRN codes must be open source.

Nevertheless, after broadcasting its first signals on Jan. 12, 2006, none of GIOVE-A's codes had been made public.

In late January, Mark Psiaki, co-leader of Cornell's GPS Laboratory, requested the codes from Martin Unwin at Surrey Satellite Technology Ltd., one of three privileged groups in the world with the PRN codes.

"In a very polite way, he said, 'Sorry, goodbye,'" recalled Psiaki. Next Psiaki contacted Oliver Montenbruck, a friend and colleague in Germany, and discovered that he also wanted the codes.

"Even Europeans were being frustrated," said Psiaki. "Then it dawned on me: Maybe we can pull these things off the air, just with an antenna and lots of signal processing."

Within one week Psiaki's team developed a basic algorithm to extract the codes. Two weeks later they had their first signal from the satellite, but were thrown off track because the signal's repeat period was twice that expected.

By mid-March they derived their first estimates of the code, and - with clever detective work and an important tip from Montenbruck - published final versions on their Web site (http://gps.ece.cornell.edu/galileo) on April 1.

Two days later, NovAtel Inc., a Canadian-based major manufacturer of GPS receivers, downloaded the codes from the Web site in a few minutes and soon afterward began tracking GIOVE-A for the first time.

Galileo eventually published PRN codes in mid-April, but they weren't the codes currently used by the GIOVE-A satellite. Furthermore, the same publication labeled the open source codes as intellectual property, claiming a license is required for any commercial receiver.

"That caught my eye right away," Psiaki said. "Apparently they were trying to make money on the open source code."

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
well yea, it was heavily subsidized by european government to attack our industry.

You are aware that parts of American industry are subsidized, either directly or by tax breaks, at the detriment of industry in other nations? Airlines and agriculture are two quick examples.

Or is that something you think only the Euros do?

you do know the euros subsidize their agriculture to an extent that makes ours look like peanuts right? the aerobus type subsidy was more of a targeted deal, its like if we had funded google to attack some well established european giant serach company. the fact that our aerospace companies made money off other projects is different, than from straight out funding them to attack competition.

 

[mercanucaribe]

Not to nitpick, but differential correction doesn't require radio transmitters. You can get the basefiles through the internet, like I just did 5 minutes ago to correct some points I took yesterday. This $12000 Trimble ProXR can be set to record a basefile at a known position and then you can use that.

 

[brandonbull]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge
Americans like Specop 007 make me want to carve the American out of myself with a sharp knife.
Thank God we're not all this small minded.

Why would any sovereign nation(s) want to be dependent on another nation for a technology vital to their national and economic security if they can help it?

Why would we expect other nations to do or accept things we would never do or accept? Would the US military be willing to hand over the controls of it's GPS to the Euros? Of course not.

The US is very dependent on oil imports