What i think is that this thing will never be settled.... how much the palestines want the jews out of the area, they never will get them out unless they nuke the whole place.... In a couple of decades, Israel will be ingrained into the middle east.... what they really have to do is to give equal rights to all people living in that country... but this will never happen... and you know why? because of religion... the stupid hardcore relgious people will never understand each other's religion.... im sorry to say, but the main problem comes from the jewish part... the orthodox jews that rule israel will never let the palestines have any rights at all... this spwans the arab terrorist problem... because of this, the hardcore islamic fanatics have a reason to tell the palestines and other arabs to launch attacks against israel... im just glad all the jews arent orthodox jews... i still remember reading in national geographic that the jews wanted to tear down the golden mosque next to the wailing wall when they first came to israel... to actually think if they did it... WWII would never have ended.... russia would go to the arabs side, and the US would protect israel and another war would have happened... anyway, IMHO, this problem will never be settled until one population or another is eliminated...
When you get down to it I wonder how much of this is the fault of the US, afterall the US has been giving Israel $15 million in aid every day for the last 30 years (Averaged out), that's 85 billion dollars since 1967 or $628000 an hour. Yes that's right to every $1 in aid the US gives to the whole continent of Africa they give $250 to Israel (or to every $1 in aid given to Latin America, $214 is given to Israel). & all because American politicians are scared of the New York Jewish vote. Fact is Isreal would have been an economic basket case if they weren't subsidised by US tax-payers.
Now if the US had the guts to threaten to tell Israel it would turn the tap of it they didn't give all the Palestinians citizenship & equal rights under the law, 25 years ago, I'd doubt we'd have this problem now.
Now if the US had the guts to threaten to tell Israel it would turn the tap of it they didn't give all the Palestinians citizenship & equal rights under the law, 25 years ago, I'd doubt we'd have this problem now.
politicians are scared of the New York Jewish vote.
WTF?????? When did NY supplant Washington DC? Oh, thats right, you arent from the US,,,Is that what you heard from the biased propoganda spreading Aussie media or did you just make that up!?!?!?!
WTF?????? When did NY supplant Washington DC? Oh, thats right, you arent from the US,,,Is that what you heard from the biased propoganda spreading Aussie media or did you just make that up!?!?!?!
I haven't read all of this post, I really don't have to to see that DABANSHEE is pro-Palestinian and Opinionated is pro-Israeli. Personally, I'm with Opionated.
What I did see that forced me to respond is this:
DABANSHEE saying, "Actually its the Israeli's who are living in a fantasy world trying to recreat a state that hasn't existed in 2000 years."
Now, I believe it was the UN who gave the Jewish people a land, Israel, in 1948. Therefore, rightfully it is our land (I am Jewish), and therefore as long as we defend it as we see fit, no one will take it away. No one has so far and hopefully no one ever will again.
Here's a little something you didn't learn in Propoganda 101, DABANSHEE, before WWII England had the Green Papers or White Papers (it was one of those colors...) that laid out a plan to split up Palestine into half Jewish, half Palestinian, and Jerusalem would be an internationally run city. The Jews accepted this, the Palestinians did not. I understand, they didn't want to give up their land, fine. Then, after the war the Jews were given Israel completely, but they did not force the Palestinians to leave Israel. They said they could stay, but they left to Jordan and Syria and Egypt and other Arab nations, or at least they wanted to. Those countries rejected them. They were stuck, they could not leave, but they had already made the intent to leave. That is why many generations of Palestinians are impoverished, because they left their homes but when they came back they had to live in slums. Granted, I'm sure there were many, many Jews who did not want the Palestinians there, especially the terrorist extreme Zionists, but they were not forced to leave.
Just after Israel came into being, it was attacked. The Arab nations thought they could take it down quickly. But the Jews refused to have Israel taken away so quickly. They formed make shift militias and took vans and put some armor on them for tanks and got guns and fought a rag tag war. And won. They were more motivated and determined than their foes. Since then there have been other wars, such as the Yom Kippur War, where Israel defended themselves, a small country defeating 3-6 much larger countries. How? Because they refused to be beaten!
The Palestinians want Isreal back, I understand why. But why complain and whine about it saying that it's their land? It's not, ask the U.N. Read the Torah (aka Old Testament) and you'll see that it was the Jews' land well before theirs if they want to play the history game. The Jews were granted Israel and they have successfully defended it.
Also, the Palestinians complain that they were being fired upon. Well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why! You throw rocks, broken bottles, fire submachine guns (these Palestinians aren't just huckin' rocks! They DO have guns!) at someone, what do you expect in return? The same? Yes, if you are doing it against a group of people. No, worse if you are doing it against an army, which they were.
My Rabbi's nephew and a group of friends were peacefully, harmlessly driving along a road (he has a lot of relatives in Israel) and a group of Palestinians came up to the car they were in and pelted it with rocks. They shattered the windows and seriously hurt two of the young men, not his nephew. They had to go to the hospital. Fine, go after a military at least they can retaliate, but against a group of young, unarmed men who were simply driving along the road? That's the sign of cowardice.
BTW, DABANSHEE, you aren't even from the US, so cram your friggin US comments. Also, you aren't technically Jewish and you aren't Palestinian, so really, your opinions don't hold much bearing on this topic.
What I did see that forced me to respond is this:
DABANSHEE saying, "Actually its the Israeli's who are living in a fantasy world trying to recreat a state that hasn't existed in 2000 years."
Now, I believe it was the UN who gave the Jewish people a land, Israel, in 1948. Therefore, rightfully it is our land (I am Jewish), and therefore as long as we defend it as we see fit, no one will take it away. No one has so far and hopefully no one ever will again.
Here's a little something you didn't learn in Propoganda 101, DABANSHEE, before WWII England had the Green Papers or White Papers (it was one of those colors...) that laid out a plan to split up Palestine into half Jewish, half Palestinian, and Jerusalem would be an internationally run city. The Jews accepted this, the Palestinians did not. I understand, they didn't want to give up their land, fine. Then, after the war the Jews were given Israel completely, but they did not force the Palestinians to leave Israel. They said they could stay, but they left to Jordan and Syria and Egypt and other Arab nations, or at least they wanted to. Those countries rejected them. They were stuck, they could not leave, but they had already made the intent to leave. That is why many generations of Palestinians are impoverished, because they left their homes but when they came back they had to live in slums. Granted, I'm sure there were many, many Jews who did not want the Palestinians there, especially the terrorist extreme Zionists, but they were not forced to leave.
Just after Israel came into being, it was attacked. The Arab nations thought they could take it down quickly. But the Jews refused to have Israel taken away so quickly. They formed make shift militias and took vans and put some armor on them for tanks and got guns and fought a rag tag war. And won. They were more motivated and determined than their foes. Since then there have been other wars, such as the Yom Kippur War, where Israel defended themselves, a small country defeating 3-6 much larger countries. How? Because they refused to be beaten!
The Palestinians want Isreal back, I understand why. But why complain and whine about it saying that it's their land? It's not, ask the U.N. Read the Torah (aka Old Testament) and you'll see that it was the Jews' land well before theirs if they want to play the history game. The Jews were granted Israel and they have successfully defended it.
Also, the Palestinians complain that they were being fired upon. Well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why! You throw rocks, broken bottles, fire submachine guns (these Palestinians aren't just huckin' rocks! They DO have guns!) at someone, what do you expect in return? The same? Yes, if you are doing it against a group of people. No, worse if you are doing it against an army, which they were.
My Rabbi's nephew and a group of friends were peacefully, harmlessly driving along a road (he has a lot of relatives in Israel) and a group of Palestinians came up to the car they were in and pelted it with rocks. They shattered the windows and seriously hurt two of the young men, not his nephew. They had to go to the hospital. Fine, go after a military at least they can retaliate, but against a group of young, unarmed men who were simply driving along the road? That's the sign of cowardice.
BTW, DABANSHEE, you aren't even from the US, so cram your friggin US comments. Also, you aren't technically Jewish and you aren't Palestinian, so really, your opinions don't hold much bearing on this topic.
<< That makes me wonder how things will be handled there as the sun's radiation eventually sterilizes the planet. >>
That is not in the Plan...
Israel should give back land to countries that are fairly openly hostile to them (Syria definitely is)? Should they do that, they only give their enemies the means to again launch an attack. As it stands now, they occupy the land to prevent an attack from starting from such a good position. Until the Arab nations swear off the destruction of the Jewish state (I don't believe they have, could be wrong), I see no reason why Israel should give back occupied land.
Zippy,
Your logic sound good, but I doubted that the Palestinians originally want to leave their home, love ones & friends for the surrounding Arab states, if their weren?t encourage to do so by the Israelis.
Personally I believe that the Palestinians was driven out of their homes & land, because their must be some kind of tragedy or harms were done to them to make 400 000 people to leave their home. I?m assuming that there were some thing happened similar to what the Vietnamese experience during & after the war. (My family left all our love one & friends for a chance to get out of Vietnam, and we were expected to die on the road to freedom, but luck have it we beat the odds and make it to Malaysia then Canada. And, the survival rate to freedom is less than %50)
There must be some kind of tragedy that isn?t mentioned or recorded that makes the Palestinians to leave their home. And, the UN/US must be blind for not seeing it then and now, because their are obvious signs that show that the Israelis doesn?t treat the Palestinians fairly.
?I believe that everyone is created equally, but I'm created more equally than other.? A quote that I got from the French Canadian engineers that live/worked in Israel for more than 12 years.
Your logic sound good, but I doubted that the Palestinians originally want to leave their home, love ones & friends for the surrounding Arab states, if their weren?t encourage to do so by the Israelis.
Personally I believe that the Palestinians was driven out of their homes & land, because their must be some kind of tragedy or harms were done to them to make 400 000 people to leave their home. I?m assuming that there were some thing happened similar to what the Vietnamese experience during & after the war. (My family left all our love one & friends for a chance to get out of Vietnam, and we were expected to die on the road to freedom, but luck have it we beat the odds and make it to Malaysia then Canada. And, the survival rate to freedom is less than %50)
There must be some kind of tragedy that isn?t mentioned or recorded that makes the Palestinians to leave their home. And, the UN/US must be blind for not seeing it then and now, because their are obvious signs that show that the Israelis doesn?t treat the Palestinians fairly.
?I believe that everyone is created equally, but I'm created more equally than other.? A quote that I got from the French Canadian engineers that live/worked in Israel for more than 12 years.
Ah Zippy you really beleive that crap about Israel?
If you want to know the truth about how Israel was formed read the fist post in the thread linked below, it was written by a Jew, too
The Truth about Isreal
If you want to know the truth about how Israel was formed read the fist post in the thread linked below, it was written by a Jew, too
The Truth about Isreal
Hey Opinionated,
Deserts are not meant to be made into gardens. From a environmental prespective that would be disasterous. They would have to use all the drinking water residing underground only to make their region more green and pretty. That in my opinion is a step backwards, as the isreali scientists and environmental groups have realized.
Deserts are not meant to be made into gardens. From a environmental prespective that would be disasterous. They would have to use all the drinking water residing underground only to make their region more green and pretty. That in my opinion is a step backwards, as the isreali scientists and environmental groups have realized.
Yes exactly they have already had many salination & erosion problems from too much irregation & land clearing of open woodland & shrubland, for cropping. Really nomadic pastural leasing & Mediterranian tri-cultural croping (where olive trees are growen to keep the water table down to stop salination & between the olive trees grape fines are grown which also act as windbreaks to cut down on soil erosion so grains can be growen between the rows of vines) is much more enviromentally friendly on open woodland & shrubland, than the irrigated mono-cultural agricultural practices of the Israelis. Actually the Israeli govt is starting to realise that now & is cutting back on too much irrigation.
Oh dear god, so much of this thread scared me to death.
First off, I'm an Israeli. I am writing to you from my little room in Haifa, so I'm REALLY Biased. However, I do filter everything that goes into my head, and I try to be as objective as possible, even with matters such as this. I think all in all I criticize my country just as much as I criticize the Plastinian Authority and the Arab world. I try not to fool myself when it comes to the facts, and not to twist them to create a whole new fantasy world, the way DABANSHEE does.
I can really understand how an outsider can get an imbalanced view on the issues. You see a bunch of religious\nationalist extreamist bastards doing something horrible and horrific on CNN, and it immediately makes you sick. Trying to cope with what you've seen, you develop views that may not have anything to do with reality. That's my only explanation as to why 403Forbidden would say such stupid, insane things.
None of you actually live here. That is a fact. You have every right to discuss it from your personal view, but please, make sure you know what your talking about.
We have to be VERY realistic when we're talking about peace.
I think it take a complete idiot, or rather, a truely clueless outsider, to think that there could be a military solution to the conflict. Seeing terms such as "show them the bottom of the sea", and "just nuke them", put in serious context, are simply appauling. I think the majority of people on both sides (the sane part), realize that neither of us is going anywhere. This means, that the diplomatic solution is simply inevitable. Frankly, It's only a question of how many more people have to die before we get there. I don't know about you guys, but I sure as hell hopes not many.
Don't give up on us just yet - Remember that the United States of America didn't exactly start off, err, "Smoothly". We'll get there. We have to.
If you were to ask me what my dream is, that I would probably answer, (besides a 1.2GHZ Thunderbird), that in ten generations, the ME would become like Europe. My offsprings would cross the border and go to do business in Lebanon, and it would be considered just an everyday thing.
First off, I'm an Israeli. I am writing to you from my little room in Haifa, so I'm REALLY Biased. However, I do filter everything that goes into my head, and I try to be as objective as possible, even with matters such as this. I think all in all I criticize my country just as much as I criticize the Plastinian Authority and the Arab world. I try not to fool myself when it comes to the facts, and not to twist them to create a whole new fantasy world, the way DABANSHEE does.
I can really understand how an outsider can get an imbalanced view on the issues. You see a bunch of religious\nationalist extreamist bastards doing something horrible and horrific on CNN, and it immediately makes you sick. Trying to cope with what you've seen, you develop views that may not have anything to do with reality. That's my only explanation as to why 403Forbidden would say such stupid, insane things.
None of you actually live here. That is a fact. You have every right to discuss it from your personal view, but please, make sure you know what your talking about.
We have to be VERY realistic when we're talking about peace.
I think it take a complete idiot, or rather, a truely clueless outsider, to think that there could be a military solution to the conflict. Seeing terms such as "show them the bottom of the sea", and "just nuke them", put in serious context, are simply appauling. I think the majority of people on both sides (the sane part), realize that neither of us is going anywhere. This means, that the diplomatic solution is simply inevitable. Frankly, It's only a question of how many more people have to die before we get there. I don't know about you guys, but I sure as hell hopes not many.
Don't give up on us just yet - Remember that the United States of America didn't exactly start off, err, "Smoothly". We'll get there. We have to.
If you were to ask me what my dream is, that I would probably answer, (besides a 1.2GHZ Thunderbird), that in ten generations, the ME would become like Europe. My offsprings would cross the border and go to do business in Lebanon, and it would be considered just an everyday thing.
zippy, again you have started to present one view of the situation.
Does it sound to hard to you and to your fellow jewish people to back off and keep themselves in their territory.
If Israel wants peace, then they have to pay the price. If the Israeli government can make houses for jews, then they should make for palestinians too. because they too live in the same land for generations.
Beside this, i should i ask the question "who the fvck they are" instead of you asking Hizbollah.
BTW, throwing a smart bomb or a any kind of bomb won't help you out.
If you throw a bomb, then in no time some one will explode a bomb inside israel.
BTW, Hizbollah is not going anywhere, bring any kind of technological crap that you got.
and Mr.Palco, would you shut up and keep your version of beliefs to yourself. The version which doesn't even consider Palestians as human.
Does it sound to hard to you and to your fellow jewish people to back off and keep themselves in their territory.
If Israel wants peace, then they have to pay the price. If the Israeli government can make houses for jews, then they should make for palestinians too. because they too live in the same land for generations.
Beside this, i should i ask the question "who the fvck they are" instead of you asking Hizbollah.
BTW, throwing a smart bomb or a any kind of bomb won't help you out.
If you throw a bomb, then in no time some one will explode a bomb inside israel.
BTW, Hizbollah is not going anywhere, bring any kind of technological crap that you got.
and Mr.Palco, would you shut up and keep your version of beliefs to yourself. The version which doesn't even consider Palestians as human.
<< and Mr.Palco, would you shut up and keep your version of beliefs to yourself. The version which doesn't even consider Palestians as human. >>
For the record...I believe God loves the Palestinians as much as the Israelis.
Yeh as long as they give up their homes & lands that they have been living on for over a millenium, to nutty loudmouth settlers from New York.
<< Now, I believe it was the UN who gave the Jewish people a land, Israel, in 1948. >>
AFAIK that is correct.
<< Therefore, rightfully it is our land >>
This, on the other hand is completely wrong IMHO.
The main problem here is that the UN never had the right to give the land to the Jews, but still they did. It belonged to the Palestinians, not the UN, and the UN had no right to give the land to the Jews.
"and not to twist them to create a whole new fantasy world, the way DABANSHEE does."
Ah, WWDude, its Israelis like you who are living in a fantasy land. Imagine a bunch of progresive, reform, orthadox, & ultra-orthadox Jews from arround the world with absolutely nothing in common getting together & coverting the lands & homes that another people had been living in for over a millenium & claiming it theirs, just because they claim that god promised it to them & because they claim descent from the Hebrews of antiquity. Talk abouty fantasy.
Didn't they realise that when a group covets the lands 'n homes of others it useally leads to eternal war, till either the native population have justice & get their homes 'n lands back; or there's virtual genocide of the native population (like the what occured to the American Indians & the Aboriginies in SE Australia & Tasmania)
Yet if they really believe in zionism it means they ought to go back to New York, Yemen, Hungary, Poland & wherever else they came from. Because geneticists (& Israeli ones at that) have already shown that the average Palestinian is more closely related to the Hebrews of antiquity, than todays Jews. Well why is that? Simple, after Alexander the Great took the Persian Empire, many Jews took on Greek ways & became thouroughly Hellenised. By the time of the Romans. 50% of Jews were good Greco/Romans (the Eastern half of the Roman Empire was Greek speaking & that includses the Romans there) & these Hellenic Jews were never deported toward the end of the 1st Century like the traditional Jews were.
Todays Palestinians are descended from these Hellenic Jews. Even when the Arabs replaced the Byzantine Empire (Greek Speaking Eastern Romans) as the main power in the Levant in the 7th Century the Arabs made up a small minority of the population & slowly bred in. Contrary to popular beleif the Arabs did not force conversions to Islam as Christians & Jews were/are consided people of the book. Thats why when the Crusaders executed 40000 infedals at the seige of Tyre (or was it Acre), because Saladin was late with the ransom gold, half the infedels were actually Greek Orthadox christians. Gradually over time Islam became the dominent religion, but even today 15% of Palestinians are Greek Orthadox. Also the Samaritins of bible fame still exist in the Levant too, they live mainly arround the West Bank town of Nablus, actually just the other day the Israelis shelled a ancient Samaratin Synagogue in town & injured the rabbi there.
The Israelis had learnt something from the Nasis & were applying a bit of collective punishment (like the way Nazis would take hostages from a local town & kill them whenever the under ground attacked). A Israeli settler (or shoul I say war criminal) was killed (under the Geneva Convention anyone who volunteerily settles on occupied land is a war criminal - article 49 para 6, see also the 'Polish Precedent') in a fire fight, so the Israelis shelled the town centre killing 3 people & injuring 8 more.
Ah, WWDude, its Israelis like you who are living in a fantasy land. Imagine a bunch of progresive, reform, orthadox, & ultra-orthadox Jews from arround the world with absolutely nothing in common getting together & coverting the lands & homes that another people had been living in for over a millenium & claiming it theirs, just because they claim that god promised it to them & because they claim descent from the Hebrews of antiquity. Talk abouty fantasy.
Didn't they realise that when a group covets the lands 'n homes of others it useally leads to eternal war, till either the native population have justice & get their homes 'n lands back; or there's virtual genocide of the native population (like the what occured to the American Indians & the Aboriginies in SE Australia & Tasmania)
Yet if they really believe in zionism it means they ought to go back to New York, Yemen, Hungary, Poland & wherever else they came from. Because geneticists (& Israeli ones at that) have already shown that the average Palestinian is more closely related to the Hebrews of antiquity, than todays Jews. Well why is that? Simple, after Alexander the Great took the Persian Empire, many Jews took on Greek ways & became thouroughly Hellenised. By the time of the Romans. 50% of Jews were good Greco/Romans (the Eastern half of the Roman Empire was Greek speaking & that includses the Romans there) & these Hellenic Jews were never deported toward the end of the 1st Century like the traditional Jews were.
Todays Palestinians are descended from these Hellenic Jews. Even when the Arabs replaced the Byzantine Empire (Greek Speaking Eastern Romans) as the main power in the Levant in the 7th Century the Arabs made up a small minority of the population & slowly bred in. Contrary to popular beleif the Arabs did not force conversions to Islam as Christians & Jews were/are consided people of the book. Thats why when the Crusaders executed 40000 infedals at the seige of Tyre (or was it Acre), because Saladin was late with the ransom gold, half the infedels were actually Greek Orthadox christians. Gradually over time Islam became the dominent religion, but even today 15% of Palestinians are Greek Orthadox. Also the Samaritins of bible fame still exist in the Levant too, they live mainly arround the West Bank town of Nablus, actually just the other day the Israelis shelled a ancient Samaratin Synagogue in town & injured the rabbi there.
The Israelis had learnt something from the Nasis & were applying a bit of collective punishment (like the way Nazis would take hostages from a local town & kill them whenever the under ground attacked). A Israeli settler (or shoul I say war criminal) was killed (under the Geneva Convention anyone who volunteerily settles on occupied land is a war criminal - article 49 para 6, see also the 'Polish Precedent') in a fire fight, so the Israelis shelled the town centre killing 3 people & injuring 8 more.
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