Oh God... Not the Vietnam Stuff Again...

Jun 27, 2005
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Link
Draft questions cloud Giuliani?s chances

(AP)
WASHINGTON - If this presidential campaign is anything like the last, John McCain?s Vietnam service will inevitably be contrasted with GOP rival Rudy Giuliani?s avoidance of a war that he opposed.


?Any suggestion that he was dodging the draft is totally, factually inaccurate,? said a senior Giuliani campaign adviser who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the topic. ?He opposed the war on tactical and strategic grounds.?

But as far back as 1993, when he successfully ran for mayor of New York, Giuliani has been dogged by accusations that he pulled strings to avoid the draft. By contrast, McCain has long been feted as a bona fide war hero for his harrowing stint in a Vietnamese prison.

Anyone who dismisses the significance of Vietnam as a potential issue in the 2008 campaign is forgetting how surprisingly potent it proved in 2004, when there was enormous interest in the military records of both President Bush and Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts. Four years later, with the nation still at war, Americans likely are to again scrutinize the military records of those who seek the job of commander in chief.

Giuliani, who once said of the Vietnam war, ?I disagreed with it,? obtained an occupational deferment in 1969, when he was a law clerk. Although critics say such deferments were rare, the Giuliani campaign disagrees.

?He wanted an occupational deferment, which was very common at the time, because he wanted to be a lawyer,? the Giuliani adviser said.

When Giuliani?s deferment expired in 1970, he drew draft number 308, which was never called. His campaign suggests this proves he was not a draft dodger.

?This is an important point: After his deferment, his name was entered into the lottery ? at least once ? and he had a high number,? the adviser said.

Still, Giuliani has always been politically sensitive to the issue. During his 1993 mayoral campaign, he commissioned a ?vulnerability study? that listed ?draft dodger? as one of the epithets that might be hurled against him.

In blunt language, the consultants who prepared the study articulated how adversaries might frame the issue.

?Giuliani received special treatment from a friendly federal judge to avoid military service during the Vietnam war, when thousands of less fortunate people were dying,? they wrote. ?Then, as a member of the Justice Department, he hypocritically prosecuted draft dodgers.?

Mark Salter, McCain?s chief of staff, said he had ?no idea? whether Giuliani?s deferment would become a presidential campaign issue.

?Who knows?? he told The Examiner. ?One assumes just about everything these days gets examined.?

He added: ?I don?t think McCain would want it to be an issue. I know that sort of suggests a false modesty, but I really don?t.?

The ?false modesty? remark was an allusion to the Arizona senator?s extensive military background. The son and grandson of admirals, McCain graduated from the Naval Academy and served 22 years in the Navy, including five and a half as a prisoner of war in Hanoi.

Thus, if Vietnam becomes an issue in the 2008 campaign, McCain might find himself in the role that Kerry had hoped to play in 2004 ? unassailable war hero. That status eluded Kerry when his combat record was challenged by Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth, who also denounced the Democrat for accusing fellow Vietnam veterans of war crimes.

Giuliani, on the other hand ? who had a 2-to-1 advantage over McCain in an ABC poll of Republicans this week ? could find his record subjected to the sort of intense scrutiny that Bush experienced in 2004. Some of that scrutiny came from Kerry himself, who questioned whether Bush had fulfilled his stateside duties in the National Guard.

CBS News raised similar questions in a ?60 Minutes? broadcast that backfired because the network used documents that could not be authenticated. The ensuing scandal, known as ?Memogate,? ended up inoculating Bush against further attacks on his military record.

Swift Boats co-founder John O?Neill said the only reason Vietnam became a major issue in 2004 was that Kerry kept bringing it up.

?I do think Kerry was a special case,? O?Neill said. ?Whatever Rudy Giuliani or the rest of these people did or didn?t do in terms of the Vietnam War, I don?t think that?s a legitimate issue in the presidential campaign of 2008.?

During an interview with The Examiner last fall, when he was mounting a second bid for the White House, Kerry said of the Swift Boat Veterans: ?I?m prepared to kick their ass from one end of America to the other.? But the senator from Massachusetts later dropped out of the race.

Kerry spokeswoman Amy Brundage said this week that ?2008 should be a choice between candidates? visions on ending the war in Iraq.? She added: ?That conversation must not be stolen by partisan front groups [that use] lying, despicable attack ads to smear the records of those who have served in uniform.?

During the Vietnam War, Romney divided his time between college and overseas work for the Mormon church.

?A younger Mitt Romney became eligible for the draft in 1970, but his number was not called in the military draft,? Romney spokesman Kevin Madden said. ?During that time, he did spend several years as a missionary for his church in France.?

Illinois Sen. Barack Obama was only 14 when the Vietnam War ended. New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, as a woman, was not subject to the draft that would complicate her future husband?s White House bid.

John Edwards, who is also running for president, didn?t get many questions about his military record when he was Kerry?s running mate in 2004, thanks to all the focus being on Kerry and Bush.

?I did not serve in the military,? Edwards said in an April 2004 interview with Katie Couric, who then asked if he had a high lottery number.

?I did, and I came after the time that they were actually drafting from the lottery,? he said. ?And because [of] the time I came along and graduated from high school and then went to college, I was not drafted.?
Aw Jeez...

"I swear to God I'll pistol-whip the next one of ya that says 'shinanigans!' Err... 'Vietnam'" /Super Troopers

Can we please talk about the issues this presidential election cycle? Please? My one humble request to the candidates and their campaigns.

 

catnap1972

Platinum Member
Aug 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

(quoted from article)
Swift Boats co-founder John O?Neill said the only reason Vietnam became a major issue in 2004 was that Kerry kept bringing it up.

?I do think Kerry was a special case,? O?Neill said. ?Whatever Rudy Giuliani or the rest of these people did or didn?t do in terms of the Vietnam War, I don?t think that?s a legitimate issue in the presidential campaign of 2008.?

Uh huh--it's only a "legitimate" issue when you can beat Democrats up with it. Yeah whatever... :roll:

 
Jun 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: catnap1972
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

(quoted from article)
Swift Boats co-founder John O?Neill said the only reason Vietnam became a major issue in 2004 was that Kerry kept bringing it up.

?I do think Kerry was a special case,? O?Neill said. ?Whatever Rudy Giuliani or the rest of these people did or didn?t do in terms of the Vietnam War, I don?t think that?s a legitimate issue in the presidential campaign of 2008.?

Uh huh--it's only a "legitimate" issue when you can beat Democrats up with it. Yeah whatever... :roll:

Yeah, cause nobody tried to beat up Dubbya about his lack of vietnam service.

Aw crap. This is how it starts.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Yes, all this proves is that he's just another wussy. Let's move on to something with more substance, something really important...... like getting a BJ .
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,302
144
106
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

*ahem*

Well this promises to be quite an entertaining election for the country.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,845
40,469
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Yeah, cause nobody tried to beat up Dubbya about his lack of vietnam service.


I believe it was him going AWOL which was the main beef many had. There is some dignity in defending the Texas border from invasion as a pilot, even if you somehow miraculously leap-frogged hundreds of other applicants who were more qualified and registered sooner.

But I digress, it isn't like Giuliani used the maximum number of student deferments allowed, then knocked up his wife asap to get an expectant father deferment.


Even though I've lost a lot of respect for McCain as a politician, I feel he should be commended for having the stones to go get shot at. Can't say that about a lot of war-happy Repubs these days.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
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Originally posted by: blackllotus
I don't think actions done 30 years ago are representative of someone's character today
even if they were felonious in nature? Where is that line drawn? I know this is slightly off-topic, but I'm curious...
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
?He wanted an occupational deferment, which was very common at the time, because he wanted to be a lawyer,? the Giuliani adviser said.

When Giuliani?s deferment expired in 1970, he drew draft number 308, which was never called. His campaign suggests this proves he was not a draft dodger.

?This is an important point: After his deferment, his name was entered into the lottery ? at least once ? and he had a high number,? the adviser said.

That should be enough to make this a non-issue for Rudy IMHO.

Plus, since the guy was a lawyer there is no chance he was gonna see combat anyway. He would've been a lawyer, and working as one, in whatever brach drafted him.

Fern
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,772
2,548
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Originally posted by: Fern
?He wanted an occupational deferment, which was very common at the time, because he wanted to be a lawyer,? the Giuliani adviser said.

When Giuliani?s deferment expired in 1970, he drew draft number 308, which was never called. His campaign suggests this proves he was not a draft dodger.

?This is an important point: After his deferment, his name was entered into the lottery ? at least once ? and he had a high number,? the adviser said.

That should be enough to make this a non-issue for Rudy IMHO.

Plus, since the guy was a lawyer there is no chance he was gonna see combat anyway. He would've been a lawyer, and working as one, in whatever brach drafted him.

Fern

<-- held lottery #355 - the best lottery I ever lost.

Lawyers went into combat. A former co-worker of mine was drafted right out of law school and spent his tour in combat.

Nearly every male from that era (John Kerry with his JFK illusions & John McCain excepted) people that actually wanted to be drafted or go to Vietnam were pretty few and far between. The manuvers Guiliani is apparently accused of are pretty minor, totally legal and no where near what "fortunate son" GWB pulled off. It would make not one ibit of difference to me in deciding whether or not to vote for him.

 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,320
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Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Yes, all this proves is that he's just another wussy. Let's move on to something with more substance, something really important...... like getting a BJ .

getting a BJ?? ahh...a Bush Job???
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
1,875
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: blackllotus
I don't think actions done 30 years ago are representative of someone's character today
even if they were felonious in nature? Where is that line drawn? I know this is slightly off-topic, but I'm curious...

The line really depends on the age of an individual. I think people are more likely to change between ages 30 and 60 than 70 and 100. For example, I wouldn't have a hard time believing that a 50 year old who robbed a bank at age 25 could be a decent person whereas I would have a harder time if someone robbed a bank at age 60 (after they've have plenty of years to reflect on their morals).
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,339
12,674
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The lack of military service was my biggest objection to Bill Clinton back in 92. HOW can a person who has never served command the military? No concept of obedience to orders, no understanding of the entire "military mindset", or the consequences of the orders they give. Personally, I'd support a change in the constitution to require any candidate for President to have successfully served at least ONE enlistment period in one of the Armed Forces, with a verifiable Honorable Discharge...
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: BoomerD
The lack of military service was my biggest objection to Bill Clinton back in 92. HOW can a person who has never served command the military? No concept of obedience to orders, no understanding of the entire "military mindset", or the consequences of the orders they give. Personally, I'd support a change in the constitution to require any candidate for President to have successfully served at least ONE enlistment period in one of the Armed Forces, with a verifiable Honorable Discharge...

While I think military experience is a good thing to have, I do not think it should be a requirement.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: BoomerD
The lack of military service was my biggest objection to Bill Clinton back in 92. HOW can a person who has never served command the military? No concept of obedience to orders, no understanding of the entire "military mindset", or the consequences of the orders they give. Personally, I'd support a change in the constitution to require any candidate for President to have successfully served at least ONE enlistment period in one of the Armed Forces, with a verifiable Honorable Discharge...

You realize that the Secretary of the Army is a civilian? I don't think he ever served either.

The point is that this country has long decided taht the military is under civilian control. While Clinton's lack of service never troubled me, his apparent disdain for it did. In the latter I'm not referring to any reluctance to employ tthe military, rather what I perceived as an insulting attitude towards them. Sucks when your boss (seemingly) feels that way about you.

Fern
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,013
7,533
136
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: BoomerD
The lack of military service was my biggest objection to Bill Clinton back in 92. HOW can a person who has never served command the military? No concept of obedience to orders, no understanding of the entire "military mindset", or the consequences of the orders they give. Personally, I'd support a change in the constitution to require any candidate for President to have successfully served at least ONE enlistment period in one of the Armed Forces, with a verifiable Honorable Discharge...

You realize that the Secretary of the Army is a civilian? I don't think he ever served either.

The point is that this country has long decided taht the military is under civilian control. While Clinton's lack of service never troubled me, his apparent disdain for it did. In the latter I'm not referring to any reluctance to employ tthe military, rather what I perceived as an insulting attitude towards them. Sucks when your boss (seemingly) feels that way about you.

Fern
as i've learned both in service and out, a boss's job is to tell his people what job to do, but he should never tell them how to it. cheney, bush, rummy, wolfowitz etc. never ever caught on to that and suffered/is suffering for it dearly. they would have learned it had they had military service.

these pinhead micro-managing bean-counters not only tied the hands of our generals from the get go, bush and co. refused to listen to their generals whenever it meant more cost or more boots on the ground and look at where we are right now.

these businessmen leaders of ours that sit in the whitehouse were too much concerned about making political points and big$$$$$$ rather than getting a war done properly from pre- to post-. just like vietnam.

as an aside, i thinks it's funny that once you've experienced actual combat, especially the intimate "bite each others teeth out" kind, you get to learn to trust not the a$$holes who put you in that little hell-hole to fight or die, but the ones who helped you fight your way out and survive.

 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
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So wait a minute, the founder of the Swift Boat vets is saying that Vietnam is not an issue for the '08 election, even when there is an alleged draft dodger in the race?

Always knew the lot of 'em were full of crap, but this douchebag really takes the cake. I wonder how many people regret their decision in '04.
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,216
1
61
Originally posted by: BoomerD
The lack of military service was my biggest objection to Bill Clinton back in 92. HOW can a person who has never served command the military? No concept of obedience to orders, no understanding of the entire "military mindset", or the consequences of the orders they give. Personally, I'd support a change in the constitution to require any candidate for President to have successfully served at least ONE enlistment period in one of the Armed Forces, with a verifiable Honorable Discharge...

How very Starship Troopers of you. :p

I'd be the first to stay that military service is preferential in a presidential candidate for a number of reason. But by no means should it be necessary. Don't forget that some of our most revered wartime predsidents never served a day in the military. What's more, the president shouldn't be invlolved in every decision down to the minutia. He should hire experts in their respective fields to take care of those duties. No one man can be an expert in everything that will pop up during a presidency... *cough* That means you Dubbya.

Personally I think this will all blow over. As far as I can see there isn't a single candidate (R or D) who can be bit by the 'Nam bug. Guilani and Edwards both had high draft numbers and were never selected. Hill, wasn't draftable due to her alleged lack of a penis. (Gah... cheap shot, I know) Obama was a teenager when Vietnam ended. We all know about McCain. Romney might have the toughest time out of all of them on the issue as he was out on missionary duties...


Anyway, my hope is that this isn't an issue. The last two election cycles have been a sick, cruel joke. I'm foolishly hoping for more substance this time around.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
Originally posted by: BoomerD
The lack of military service was my biggest objection to Bill Clinton back in 92. HOW can a person who has never served command the military? No concept of obedience to orders, no understanding of the entire "military mindset", or the consequences of the orders they give. Personally, I'd support a change in the constitution to require any candidate for President to have successfully served at least ONE enlistment period in one of the Armed Forces, with a verifiable Honorable Discharge...

:confused:

You might want to read up on the founding fathers. There is a reason why the military is controlled by a civilian. To try and make it other would be the opposite of what our nation was founded on.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,339
12,674
136
Actually, I support the concept of NOT having an active duty military employee in that position, BUT, I also believe that someone who's been under fire has a bit more of a concept of what it's like when they send troops into battle, instead of a lawyer or business man doing the same...to them, troops are just numbers, and they always die nice and neatly, instead of being blown into little unrecognizeable chunks that might actually make you feel bad for sending them...especially when they get sent for "business reasons", instead of something along the lined of National Defense...
 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
3,875
0
76
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: catnap1972
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

(quoted from article)
Swift Boats co-founder John O?Neill said the only reason Vietnam became a major issue in 2004 was that Kerry kept bringing it up.

?I do think Kerry was a special case,? O?Neill said. ?Whatever Rudy Giuliani or the rest of these people did or didn?t do in terms of the Vietnam War, I don?t think that?s a legitimate issue in the presidential campaign of 2008.?

Uh huh--it's only a "legitimate" issue when you can beat Democrats up with it. Yeah whatever... :roll:

Yeah, cause nobody tried to beat up Dubbya about his lack of vietnam service.

Aw crap. This is how it starts.

I don't care if someone is a draft dodger. I would have skipped to Canada if I got selected for Vietnam but there is something wrong with war mongers dodging the draft.