Official Swiftboat Thread

[AnandTech Moderator]

Post all coments about the Swiftboat controversy here.

 

[smashp]

Kerry critic listed as fund-raiser's co-host


Houston home builder Bob Perry, a key bankroller for Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, is listed as the co-host of a New York City fund-raiser next week for the Harris County GOP, whose guest list includes President Bush's top political adviser.

Mr. Perry, who has given $200,000 to the veterans' group to help launch the anti-John Kerry ads that question the Democrat's Vietnam War record, has denied any links to Mr. Bush or the national Republican Party regarding the Swift Boat Veterans' campaign.

Bill Miller, a spokesman for Mr. Perry, said that while the prolific GOP donor has given money to the local party, he was surprised to find his name on the invitation.

"He told me, 'I never approved the use of my name. I'm not going to be there,' " Mr. Miller said.

Mr. Perry also does not plan to attend the convention in New York City, Mr. Miller said.

Invitations to the Harris County reception and fund-raiser Sept. 1 at Tavern on the Green name Mr. Perry as an event sponsor, and those on the invitation list include former President George Bush, presidential adviser Karl Rove and House Majority Leader Tom DeLay.







remember this

In the early going, when it appeared Mr Kerry would emerge as the frontrunner, one senior Republican commented wryly: "By the time the White House finishes with Kerry, no one will know what side of the (Vietnam) war he fought on."




GOP smear Machine. He's (Perry) not showing up, now that his hand has been caught in the cookie jar

 

[BDawg]

While you're at it, can we have just one thread for all of Rip's posts too?

 

[conjur]

Larry Thurlow, one of the lying Swiftboat Veterans:
http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/york/york200407301059.asp

Thurlow says that Kerry's version of the events of March 13, 1969, is simply wrong. "His story is a total fabrication," Thurlow says. One of the Swift Boats did hit a mine that day, Thurlow says, but much of the rest of Kerry's story is inaccurate. "This thing about being under intense enemy fire is a falsehood...There was no fire off either bank [of the river]. This thing about getting Jim out of the river under a hail of bullets with these serious injuries is totally fabricated."

The lie exposed:
http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blkerryinvietnam/index3.html

Larry Thurlow received a bronze star for a fire fight he now says did not occur!



AND

George Elliott lying:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5694561/

HURLEY: This is from George Elliott, one of John Kerry?s commanders in Vietnam. This is the recommendation for the award of the Bronze Star. And he talks about a little bit in this.

Then he says: ?Shortly after starting their exit from this river, a mine detonated under one of the boats, PCF-3, lifting it two feet above the water and wounded everyone on board. Almost simultaneously, another mine detonated, close aboard PCF-94, knocking First Lieutenant Rassmann into the water and wounding Lieutenant J.G. Kerry in the right arm.? It goes on that PCF-4 provided cover fire, that they received sniper fire from the riverbanks. ?Lieutenant J.G. Kerry, from his exposed position on the bow of the boat, managed to pull Lieutenant Rassmann aboard despite the painful wound in his right arm.

?Meanwhile, PCF-94 gunners provided accurate suppressing fire.? It concludes by saying: ?Lieutenant J.G. Kerry proved himself to be calm, professional and highly courageous in the face of enemy fire.? That is signed by George Elliott, one of these same guys now who is saying, oh, but I remember it differently and I want to change my mind.

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231

What Elliott said in the ad is that Kerry "has not been honest about what happened in Viet Nam." In his original affidavit Elliott said Kerry had not been "forthright" in Vietnam. The only example he offered of Kerry not being "honest" or "forthright" was this: "For example, in connection with his Silver Star, I was never informed that he had simply shot a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong in the back.

In the Globe story, Elliott is quoted as saying it was a "terrible mistake" to sign that statement:

George Elliott (Globe account): It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here. . . . I knew it was wrong . . . In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake.

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_4998.shtml

Another prominent figure in the anti-Kerry book as well as the ad denouncing Kerry, retired Lt. Commander George Elliott, recanted his statement last week in interviews with at least two news sources and then recounted his recant. Elliott also supported Kerry in his 1996 campaign and told a Boston audience that he felt the Senator "deserved the medals he won in Vietnam."

O?Neill further destroyed his credibility by appearing on CNN after assuring the network he had not spoke out publicly about Kerry this year. CNN later had to retract their claim of an ?exclusive? interview after they learned O?Neill appeared on C-Span to discuss Kerry in March.

Elliott Praises Kerry in 1969 Report

Elliott had a much different opinion of Kerry at the time than in the ad. In a fitness report on Kerry, dated Dec. 18, 1969, he stated that "in a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed...LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group."

Elliott also said he voted for Gore. I find that very hard to believe considering he's donated to the GOP. Elliott is a pathological liar. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.


AND

Hibbard has not revealed that he was Kerry's CO for only two weeks and never wrote a performance review for Kerry.


AND

Hoffman has been called a Kurtz-like psychopath.

Capt. Roy Hoffmann: "I told them you not only have authority," Hoffmann now says, "I damned well expect action. If there were men there and they didn?t kill them or capture them, you?d hear from me."

Also, Hoffman is a liar:
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_4998.shtml

?They seek retribution by fabricating stories to destroy Kerry,? Brinkley says. ?Hoffman, in particular lacks credibility.?

On May 6, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reporter Steve Schultze, interviewed Hoffman and wrote ?Hoffmann acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally.?

On August 5, however, Hoffman told Sean Hannity on his ABC radio show that "I knew him (Kerry) well, because I operated very closely with him and, uh, many of the operations, uh, most of the operations were-were conducted with multiple boats."

AND

Merrie Spaeth is the Communications Director for the Swiftboat Veterans group and is a staunch GOP supporter.


AND

Their website is funded by a Missouri Republican with close ties to John Ashcroft.


AND

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/4/132751.shtml

?It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, Marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us.) Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war.?

But it is with regard to the latter sentence of the charge that O?Neill and others get vague.

When asked by NewsMax if they had in mind any potential smoking gun of distortion that might be revealed by an unfettered examination of Kerry?s military records, there was no answer forthcoming.

AND

Who is Steve Gardner?
Swift Boat Vet "eyewitness" was not present for events leading to Kerry's medals or Purple Hearts
http://mediamatters.org/items/200408240001

Gardner admitted that "he was not on the boat with Kerry during the incidents for which Kerry got his medals," reported The Columbus Dispatch on August 6. And as a guest on Michael Savage's radio show, Savage Nation, on August 2, Gardner said that of Kerry's three Purple Hearts, he could only attest to the first; Gardner later admitted to Savage that he was "not on the boat with him [Kerry]" when that injury occurred...

...in at least two interviews, Gardner has falsely claimed that he was present for the incidents leading to Kerry's receipt of awards...

...In an apparent attempt to substantiate his status as an eyewitness to key Kerry events, Gardner claimed on Scarborough Country, "[T]hat boat never left the dock that I wasn't aboard it with John Kerry, never. I was with that boat everywhere we went." Gardner went on to make assertions regarding the events that occurred on March 13, 1969, involving Kerry's rescue of Jim Rassmann, for which Kerry received the Bronze Star. Gardner claimed to know that Kerry fled the scene on the river that day while the other three boats stayed and that Kerry then "turned around and came all the way back to pick up Mr. Rassmann that he had thrown off his boat when he took off, when he fled down the canal." But later in the show, Gardner admitted to not being present that day. When Scarborough attempted to revisit the "March 13, 1969 incident," Gardner said, "I'm not going to deal with that. Because I wasn't there."...

...On the August 2 broadcast of Savage Nation, Gardner himself claimed that all of the wounds for which Kerry received Purple Hearts "were superficial wounds, and I mean very superficial, scratches. The very first one is the only one that I can actually attest to because I was there when that wound happened." But Gardner was not there when Kerry sustained that wound; as noted above, Gardner went on to admit: "I was not on the boat with him but I -- in the next three days following that, I was with him on the boat going to take our new position up down there on the seaward operations."

And John O'Neill in his lie:

Swift Boat Writer Lied on Cambodia Claim
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&u=/ap/20040825/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_critic_swift_boats_1&printer=1

 

[LordMagnusKain]

If so many veterans who where in the same location say Kerry ran like chicken little when the heat got turned up, then it?s no wonder Kerry is sending out his liberal-internet-wackjobs to over-post about how they are ?liars? because they only saw Kerry run away from combat instead of actually being on the boat that ran away.

Kerry has 45million in this kind of ?soft? money going against bush, the conservatives only have 9 million in cash that bypasses the intent of the law. That the conservatives have found something to truly call Kerry on is what?s making the only real difference in exposure.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
If so many veterans who where in the same location say Kerry ran like chicken little when the heat got turned up, then it?s no wonder Kerry is sending out his liberal-internet-wackjobs to over-post about how they are ?liars? because they only saw Kerry run away from combat instead of actually being on the boat that ran away.

Uh....how many swiftboats were there? 5? How many do each hold and how many are part of this group?

Yeah...I thought so.


They're a bunch of liars and it's been proven.

 

[daveshel]

And a lawyer for the Bush campaign has been involved in the smear campaign.

Link

That makes two. So much for clean hands, eh?

 

[arsbanned]

Article describing how lawyer in Bush?Cheney elcetion team is helping Swiftboat Vets:
Here
Selected quotes:

"If the Bush campaign truly disapproved of this smear, their top lawyer wouldn't be involved with the Swift boat veterans group,'' Kerry campaign spokesman Chad Clanton said.

Ginsberg said that a group of "decorated Vietnam War veterans came to me and said, 'We have an important point to get out in the debate under the First Amendment, the American right of free expression. ... Help us,' they said, and I did."

:disgust: I like how he says "A group of decorated..." Yeah, whatever. A group of decorated Vets now saying their decoration are not valid because the whole thing was a lie. Hmm. How to untangle all of their lies. IT might be impossible!
Also, if they're so sure it's protected speech (as in true) why do they need an attorney? :disgust:

Don Simon, an election-law expert with the campaign finance watchdog group Democracy 21, said Ginsberg's dual role "is not per se coordination" between the Bush campaign and the veterans group. That would occur only if Ginsberg has been transferring information between the two ? a question that likely would not be resolved before the election even if the FEC chooses to investigate the matter. But, Simon said that "as a matter of common sense, it certainly raises questions."

Well sure, they're going to be cautious enough that direct collusion can't be proved in the timeframe we have leading up to the election.... :disgust:

daveshel: I guess I'll leave this since it refers to a different article at a different news organization.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
If so many veterans who where in the same location say Kerry ran like chicken little when the heat got turned up, then it?s no wonder Kerry is sending out his liberal-internet-wackjobs to over-post about how they are ?liars? because they only saw Kerry run away from combat instead of actually being on the boat that ran away.

Kerry has 45million in this kind of ?soft? money going against bush, the conservatives only have 9 million in cash that bypasses the intent of the law. That the conservatives have found something to truly call Kerry on is what?s making the only real difference in exposure.

How typical. They run an ad full of lies and that's OK. The right says, prove there wrong. Were going to run it without denounceing it.

So it gets proven that everyone near the incident agrees with Kerry. The rest of them were miles away at best. How can you see whats happening from 3 miles away??? LOL

The whole thing begins to turn around and become a liability instead of an asset for the Bush campaign. Bush comes out and denounces all 527 ads (without any clarification about the swiftboat ad) and calls for a stop. It seems that Kerry has more money to spend in his soft money campaign treasure chest and Bush knows it.

Now the right is whining foul. Let's stop all 527 ads!! ROFLMAO!! I guess one thing you can always count on the right to respect is MONEY!! LOL

I don't think I can handle 4 more years of this right wing insanity. Can you?

https://www.moveonpac.org/donate/swiftresponse.html

 

[Insane3D]

The whole thing disgusts me personally, and reminds me why I never liked politics. I get the sense these SBVT guys are simply Bush supporters who are still upset with Kerry because he spoke out when returning from the war, so they are returning the favor in their minds. Personally, I know Kerry was there fighting for this country, and that's enough for me. I think questioning Bush's record is equally stupid.

I wish we were talking about actual issues, and who's going to do what if they get elected/re-elected, and not wasting everyones time with this crap that seems to only be for the partisan junkies that love this type of stuff.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Insane3D
The whole thing disgusts me personally, and reminds me why I never liked politics. I get the sense these SBVT guys are simply Bush supporters who are still upset with Kerry because he spoke out when returning from the war, so they are returning the favor in their minds. Personally, I know Kerry was there fighting for this country, and that's enough for me. I think questioning Bush's record is equally stupid.

I wish we were talking about actual issues, and who's going to do what if they get elected/re-elected, and not wasting everyones time with this crap that seems to only be for the partisan junkies that love this type of stuff.

I agree whole-heartedly. The issues are what we should be looking at, but that's not the way politics works anymore. Look at Willie Horton, look at John McCain. With the New Republicans it's about winning at all costs. They won't let it be a fair fight because they believe they are the "chosen" ones. I've never been partisian about politics until now, but it is time for a change before it is too late and our leader starts something he can't finish. So I say fight fire with fire.

I am so dead set against the Bush administration and most of his policies that I would vote for almost anybody else.

 

[DoubleL]

I was watching the 6:30 news last night and they had a few naval records, It could not have happen the way Kerry said and Kerry could have not been wounded, Kerry said they were taking fire from both sides of the bank, All 5 boats had to turn to the sides of the banks to get around a fishing net so it would be very easy to hit the boats but not one boat had any holes other than one that had 3 AK-47 hole from a day or two before that, It also said LT. Kerry had a sore arm not a open wound, Lets bring all the records out and clear this thing up for good

 

[rextilleon]

I see Karl Rove's hand behind this--he is the marionette master who controls Bush. If you want to learn more about these demonic figure, check out the new film, Bush's Brain.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: BDawg
While you're at it, can we have just one thread for all of Rip's posts too?

Thanks Mods, it's unfortunate this idea was a long time coming in relation to this very Un-American and Un-Patriotic manufactured controversy that won't go away.

Hey BDawg, Rip is basically the same as the Media and the SBVT's themselves in perpetuating this thing. They must honestly feel it would sway the dumb American Sheep. While they may in fact be dumb, they are way too fed up with the Regime from the last 4 years and have already decided to vote for a change.

This and any other Bullsh!t that is made up between now and the Election is not going to make any difference or change their minds. and Thank God for that.


Edit: Wow, all the locked SBVT threads :shocked: , that was a lot of work for the Mods.

Sorry you had to do that guys.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: DoubleL
I was watching the 6:30 news last night and they had a few naval records, It could not have happen the way Kerry said and Kerry could have not been wounded, Kerry said they were taking fire from both sides of the bank, All 5 boats had to turn to the sides of the banks to get around a fishing net so it would be very easy to hit the boats but not one boat had any holes other than one that had 3 AK-47 hole from a day or two before that, It also said LT. Kerry had a sore arm not a open wound, Lets bring all the records out and clear this thing up for good

Show me Bush's wounds and bruises from going to Vietnam.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: DoubleL
I was watching the 6:30 news last night and they had a few naval records, It could not have happen the way Kerry said and Kerry could have not been wounded, Kerry said they were taking fire from both sides of the bank, All 5 boats had to turn to the sides of the banks to get around a fishing net so it would be very easy to hit the boats but not one boat had any holes other than one that had 3 AK-47 hole from a day or two before that, It also said LT. Kerry had a sore arm not a open wound, Lets bring all the records out and clear this thing up for good

And they could tell all that from a few naval records? Gee, how could the people on the boat with Kerry have missed that? I guess they must not have read those records, huh.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: DoubleL
I was watching the 6:30 news last night and they had a few naval records, It could not have happen the way Kerry said and Kerry could have not been wounded, Kerry said they were taking fire from both sides of the bank, All 5 boats had to turn to the sides of the banks to get around a fishing net so it would be very easy to hit the boats but not one boat had any holes other than one that had 3 AK-47 hole from a day or two before that, It also said LT. Kerry had a sore arm not a open wound, Lets bring all the records out and clear this thing up for good

Show me Bush's wounds and bruises from going to Vietnam.

Show me Clintons wounds from Vietnam.

Show me Edwards wounds from Vietnam.

Show me Michael Moores wounds from Vietnam. ETC...ETC...

 

[Ozoned]

If John Kerry wants to end this debate, he needs to release his Vietnam records!


It is sad that this issue will define the election.

Come on John. Submit a form 180 to the DoD and make it all go away.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: DoubleL
I was watching the 6:30 news last night and they had a few naval records, It could not have happen the way Kerry said and Kerry could have not been wounded, Kerry said they were taking fire from both sides of the bank, All 5 boats had to turn to the sides of the banks to get around a fishing net so it would be very easy to hit the boats but not one boat had any holes other than one that had 3 AK-47 hole from a day or two before that, It also said LT. Kerry had a sore arm not a open wound, Lets bring all the records out and clear this thing up for good

Show me Bush's wounds and bruises from going to Vietnam.

Show me Clintons wounds from Vietnam.

Show me Edwards wounds from Vietnam.

Show me Michael Moores wounds from Vietnam. ETC...ETC...

I'll be sure not to vote for Clinton nor Moore come November.


Oh, btw, show me Cheney's wounds from Vietnam, too.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: DoubleL
I was watching the 6:30 news last night and they had a few naval records, It could not have happen the way Kerry said and Kerry could have not been wounded, Kerry said they were taking fire from both sides of the bank, All 5 boats had to turn to the sides of the banks to get around a fishing net so it would be very easy to hit the boats but not one boat had any holes other than one that had 3 AK-47 hole from a day or two before that, It also said LT. Kerry had a sore arm not a open wound, Lets bring all the records out and clear this thing up for good

Show me Bush's wounds and bruises from going to Vietnam.

Show me Clintons wounds from Vietnam.

Show me Edwards wounds from Vietnam.

Show me Michael Moores wounds from Vietnam. ETC...ETC...

I'll be sure not to vote for Clinton nor Moore come November.


Oh, btw, show me Cheney's wounds from Vietnam, too.

well thats why I added the ETC ETC...

You know we all forget that all presidents including the current one risk their lives everyday to serve their country.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
If John Kerry wants to end this debate, he needs to release his Vietnam records!


It is sad that this issue will define the election.

Come on John. Submit a form 180 to the DoD and make it all go away.

Do you forget McCain? Live by the sword, die by the sword.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: DoubleL
I was watching the 6:30 news last night and they had a few naval records, It could not have happen the way Kerry said and Kerry could have not been wounded, Kerry said they were taking fire from both sides of the bank, All 5 boats had to turn to the sides of the banks to get around a fishing net so it would be very easy to hit the boats but not one boat had any holes other than one that had 3 AK-47 hole from a day or two before that, It also said LT. Kerry had a sore arm not a open wound, Lets bring all the records out and clear this thing up for good

Thanks for your insightful "proof"

:roll:

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Show me Bush's wounds and bruises from going to Vietnam.

Show me Clintons wounds from Vietnam.

Show me Edwards wounds from Vietnam.

Show me Michael Moores wounds from Vietnam. ETC...ETC...

WTF is that???

It's the Clinton/Moore Ticket???

Where was I the last 8 months and missed that change???


I'm sure if that was in fact the Ticket, they'd still win, the poor Country has had enough of this Regime.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Was Kerry in Cambodia for Christmas Eve of '68 ?

Well just maybe he was, Operation Daniel Boone put him there

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: daveshel
And a lawyer for the Bush campaign has been involved in the smear campaign.

Link

That makes two. So much for clean hands, eh?

Joe Sandler, a lawyer for the DNC and a group running anti-Bush ads, MoveOn.org, said there is nothing wrong with serving in both roles at once.

Just wanted to point this out, since it was buried in one sentence, at the bottom of the article.