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paperfist

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(/rant on)

So my friend that I started the game with is bugging the shit out of me. I beta'd a sorceror..and was planning on playing that..free time permitted (I don't have more than 20% of my friends free time). He starts a Marauder...see's me shooting lightning bolts and he then makes a sorc..and overlaps me at like..lvl 17..

I say F this..I'm going to be a juggernaut bitch... so I begin Leveling a juggernaut...everything is all well and good when he logs in and says hold on..ginvite my alt.. a lvl 23 juggernaut..(I'm level 20 at this point with my jugger).

WTF..

/Casual Rant off

I used to have a friend like that, no matter what I bought he had to copy it +1. It drove me nuts like he couldn't think for himself.

In MMOs it's worse when you play with friends who have more leisure time then you and every time you log in they are 5 levels ahead of you.
 

maniacalpha1-1

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
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This setup assumes you have a case, optical DVD drive, and hard drive already as my friend has. He got a little bit more as a couple of items were on newegg's Shell Shocker deals so he saved about $50 or so more than the prices in the links above total on his purchase.

Basically $350 got his daughter a kickass system which he claims runs the game better than his current system. Which is an overclocked 3.6Ghz Q6600, 6GB of ram, and a 4970x2 video card. His system, while older, it isn't bad. His system runs the game pretty good actually. However, the new system for his daughter runs it even better. This is great considering the cheap price.

Is is possible to reuse 1 shot windows and I just didn't know it, or does everyone just by chance always have full price windows that can be reused?

Because no one EVER assumes in these builds that the person already has a copy of windows to use and that's $99.
 

maniacalpha1-1

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
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id also like to point out that they have been supposedly banning people on SWTOR for loot gathering on low level toons in high level area's because it might "damage the economy". bioware's rational turns to a very broad definition of "unusual gameplay" in the EULA which covers just about anything they want it too.
source dtoid:
http://www.destructoid.com/swtor-bans-players-for-playing-the-game-wrong-218902.phtml
and pcgamer magazine:
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/01/03/s...layers-face-temporary-bans-for-ilum-exploits/

It was only a matter of time before the unfair bans started rolling in.

At least they arent permanent(I didn't read the whole article though). But MMOs is seriously a place where gamers need to have their rights protected. People put hundreds of hours into a character, having a company just capriciously ban should be against the law.

The decision makers at EA who authorize these kinds of bans should be terminated, because frankly, wouldn't it be easier to just implement code that prevents too low level players from looting in the first place than to virtually steal from your customers by banning?
 
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IonusX

Senior member
Dec 25, 2011
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Is is possible to reuse 1 shot windows and I just didn't know it, or does everyone just by chance always have full price windows that can be reused?

Because no one EVER assumes in these builds that the person already has a copy of windows to use and that's $99.
very true and yes they are temp. but people should be allowed to make money as they see fit. if thats all its about. it also shouldn't be done behind an EULA paper shield which could be used on just about anything bioware wants it to be for. for example rather than nerfing a particular skill or skill combo. they could just hand out temp bans under the unusual gameplay EULA clause. does that sound fair?
 
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maniacalpha1-1

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Feb 7, 2010
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very true and yes they are temp. but people should be allowed to make money as they see fit. if thats all its about. it also shouldn't be done behind an EULA paper shield which could be used on just about anything bioware wants it to be for. for example rather than nerfing a particular skill or skill combo. they could just hand out temp bans under the unusual gameplay EULA clause. does that sound fair?

Exactly:
Working closely with the development team and using extensive metrics based on player activity, they are able to determine what is normal player activity, what is unusual and what is exploiting.”

This quote tells me that basically, doing anything different from the average player will be considered exploiting. I'm not kidding when I say that they need to clean house and restaff their customer service management if this is their attitude.
 

paperfist

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It was only a matter of time before the unfair bans started rolling in.

At least they arent permanent(I didn't read the whole article though). But MMOs is seriously a place where gamers need to have their rights protected. People put hundreds of hours into a character, having a company just capriciously ban should be against the law.

The decision makers at EA who authorize these kinds of bans should be terminated, because frankly, wouldn't it be easier to just implement code that prevents too low level players from looting in the first place than to virtually steal from your customers by banning?

I imagine once an exploit like that is found you can't just go change the code over night so you do the next best thing, warn or temp ban the offender. The offender in this case seems to have kept going back to Ilum and looting boxes over and over. Sure it's not his fault he's able to visit even though it's not meant for his level, but I'm pretty sure he knew he was getting high end rewards at a low level.

If Bioware didn't do anything then how is it fair to let a few players gain off of exploits while the majority do not?
 

KeithTalent

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I imagine once an exploit like that is found you can't just go change the code over night so you do the next best thing, warn or temp ban the offender. The offender in this case seems to have kept going back to Ilum and looting boxes over and over. Sure it's not his fault he's able to visit even though it's not meant for his level, but I'm pretty sure he knew he was getting high end rewards at a low level.

If Bioware didn't do anything then how is it fair to let a few players gain off of exploits while the majority do not?

Agreed.

KT
 

IonusX

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Dec 25, 2011
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Exactly:


This quote tells me that basically, doing anything different from the average player will be considered exploiting. I'm not kidding when I say that they need to clean house and restaff their customer service management if this is their attitude.

its a horrible prescedent to be setting.. im very displeased.
 

maniacalpha1-1

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Feb 7, 2010
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I imagine once an exploit like that is found you can't just go change the code over night so you do the next best thing, warn or temp ban the offender. The offender in this case seems to have kept going back to Ilum and looting boxes over and over. Sure it's not his fault he's able to visit even though it's not meant for his level, but I'm pretty sure he knew he was getting high end rewards at a low level.

If Bioware didn't do anything then how is it fair to let a few players gain off of exploits while the majority do not?

This is why we need gamers' rights protected. It should be specified that players are not held responsible to "know that something wasn't intended/meant for their level/etc". The gaming company is the professionals and you can't legislate morality, much less virtual morality.

The unfairness of a ban outweights the unfairness of an exploit, especially when they have the capability of doing rollbacks(meaning go into the player's account and specifically remove the unintended items) or other solutions.

I also don't accept the excuse of not being able to change the code quickly enough. I bet you they could very quickly simply close the zone to people under level 40 as a temporary solution while the make other changes that might take time, such as recoding the boxes not to be lootable under level 40.
 

HumblePie

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Oct 30, 2000
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Is is possible to reuse 1 shot windows and I just didn't know it, or does everyone just by chance always have full price windows that can be reused?

Because no one EVER assumes in these builds that the person already has a copy of windows to use and that's $99.

We both have technet subscriptions. We both have 10 keys of every version of Windows 7 with 10 activates per key..... so I forget about the Windows 7 cost. Then again, that is a universal cost regardless of the build.

oops, I had meant the 4870x2. Just a typo. It was the highest end 4000 series and I had one. He's using my old hand me down when I upgraded originally to two 5870's when they first came out.

As far as the phenom versus the G620 performance. I am aware of it. Still he wanted the cheapest gaming INTEL cpu. Some people are brand whores and I provide what they want. Still even the cheapest Phenom II x4 is still $20 more than the G620. Although you do get a bit more performance out of the phenom compared the g620 for regular tasks. However, for gaming, the G620 is still faster as shown by even this Anandtech review. http://www.anandtech.com/show/4524/...-review-pentium-g850-g840-g620-g620t-tested/3


Still the AMD Athlon II X4 631 is probably the best bang for buck at the moment with the G620 being close behind from Intel. Anyways, he's happy and so is his daughter. If anyone can afford the extra $20 for a AMD Athlon II X4 631 and doesn't have Intel bias then I recommend that CPU for a budget gaming build.
 
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paperfist

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its a horrible prescedent to be setting.. im very displeased.

“It’s important to remember that our Terms of Service team is extremely careful and thorough in their investigation of any potential exploit or unusual activity in-game. Working closely with the development team and using extensive metrics based on player activity, they are able to determine what is normal player activity, what is unusual and what is exploiting. Our goal is always to ensure a fair game experience for all players while also protecting the rights of individuals, and if people are disrupting the play experience for others action will be taken.”

Sounds like it's a tool that gathers information on all players, forms a base line and if the tool starts kicking back that players y,y,z are gaining loot items x,y,z in mass over a short period of time then they do an investigation on that player.

Seems pretty fair and logical to me. There's no way you can have devs or cs playing the game and catch every exploit by hand.

This is why we need gamers' rights protected. It should be specified that players are not held responsible to "know that something wasn't intended/meant for their level/etc". The gaming company is the professionals and you can't legislate morality, much less virtual morality.

The unfairness of a ban outweights the unfairness of an exploit, especially when they have the capability of doing rollbacks(meaning go into the player's account and specifically remove the unintended items) or other solutions.

I also don't accept the excuse of not being able to change the code quickly enough. I bet you they could very quickly simply close the zone to people under level 40 as a temporary solution while the make other changes that might take time, such as recoding the boxes not to be lootable under level 40.

I'm all for gamers rights and a level playing field, I hate it when Goliath kicks David to the curb 'just because'. But the ToS I'm sure covers not using exploits to the player's benefit. The article I read said the guy or anyone else who does this gets a warning or temp ban, not a full one. So it isolates the player, you're saying temporarily keep everyone out of the zone because one player did wrong. That's not fair that I can't visit Ilum cause one guy got greedy with boxes.

I'm sure to fix the exploit itself involves some code testing. You can visit any place you like at any level as far as I know. So to deploy code that keeps people of a certain level out of those areas isn't an over night code change.
 
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IonusX

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Dec 25, 2011
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Agreed.

KT

because its how the way communities work. when a cash making exploit is found its miled to death.. i need only look at the guildwars economy to justify this. the elemental sword for example was worth its weight in US minted gold, prior to the discovery of their obscene drop rates from raptors and the CoF. now your lucky if you can sell one, cause everybody exploited.
its not like this will stop communities from exploiting en mass and bioware should know that. if they dont they really are out of touch with todays MP communities. so these temp bans for issues like this will escalate and will probably reach silly levels until they either change their EULA and stop this practice, or risk falling out of the mainstream about as fast as AION or RIFT did.
so im sitting away from swtor.. the ill omens and poor post launch activities of bioware and their representatives have kept me at an arms distance from the game.
 

maniacalpha1-1

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Feb 7, 2010
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“It’s important to remember that our Terms of Service team is extremely careful and thorough in their investigation of any potential exploit or unusual activity in-game. Working closely with the development team and using extensive metrics based on player activity, they are able to determine what is normal player activity, what is unusual and what is exploiting. Our goal is always to ensure a fair game experience for all players while also protecting the rights of individuals, and if people are disrupting the play experience for others action will be taken.”

Sounds like it's a tool that gathers information on all players, forms a base line and if the tool starts kicking back that players y,y,z are gaining loot items x,y,z in mass over a short period of time then they do an investigation on that player.

Seems pretty fair and logical to me. There's no way you can have devs or cs playing the game and catch every exploit by hand.

I think you're under the impression that I'm saying that the effects of these "exploits" should simply be accepted/tolerated with no action taken. That is in fact not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that since these are, undeniably, the fault of the gaming company, they should, except in cases of a true emergency, expend a little more man hours to avoid a ban. Because I believe they use bans because banning is more manpower-efficient than say, going into the account to hand-remove the exploited gains.

Or, as in the example I gave, they could deny all sub level 40s access to the zone until a more fine-tuned solution can be coded, this is acceptable as well, and it's even more efficient than banning, because it will also stop the need to even ban for it, since it can't happen.

But like I say, at least these are temporary bans. Hopefully they do not graduate to issuing permanent bans for unfair reasons, but if they do, there were those of us who knew it might happen.

I'm all for gamers rights and a level playing field, I hate it when Goliath kicks David to the curb 'just because'. But the ToS I'm sure covers not using exploits to the player's benefit. The article I read said the guy or anyone else who does this gets a warning or temp ban, not a full one. So it isolates the player, you're saying temporarily keep everyone out of the zone because one player did wrong. That's not fair that I can't visit Ilum cause one guy got greedy with boxes.

I'm sure to fix the exploit itself involves some code testing. You can visit any place you like at any level as far as I know. So to deploy code that keeps people of a certain level out of those areas isn't an over night code change

OK, but let me ask - it's great that you can visit any place at any level, but is there actually any sub level 40 content in Ilum that would truly hurt anyone to lose access to for a week or two? If there is, then I accept that this wouldn't be a workable solution. The only reason I suggested blocking it off was because I got the impression it was a high level content only zone.
 
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IonusX

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Dec 25, 2011
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“It’s important to remember that our Terms of Service team is extremely careful and thorough in their investigation of any potential exploit or unusual activity in-game. Working closely with the development team and using extensive metrics based on player activity, they are able to determine what is normal player activity, what is unusual and what is exploiting. Our goal is always to ensure a fair game experience for all players while also protecting the rights of individuals, and if people are disrupting the play experience for others action will be taken.”

Sounds like it's a tool that gathers information on all players, forms a base line and if the tool starts kicking back that players y,y,z are gaining loot items x,y,z in mass over a short period of time then they do an investigation on that player.

Seems pretty fair and logical to me. There's no way you can have devs or cs playing the game and catch every exploit by hand.



I'm all for gamers rights and a level playing field, I hate it when Goliath kicks David to the curb 'just because'. But the ToS I'm sure covers not using exploits to the player's benefit. The article I read said the guy or anyone else who does this gets a warning or temp ban, not a full one. So it isolates the player, you're saying temporarily keep everyone out of the zone because one player did wrong. That's not fair that I can't visit Ilum cause one guy got greedy with boxes.

I'm sure to fix the exploit itself involves some code testing. You can visit any place you like at any level as far as I know. So to deploy code that keeps people of a certain level out of those areas isn't an over night code change.
they did it with guildwars and that was years ago.. lvl 10 or lower cant access EOTN content and when you do your given fixed and rigged stats till ur lvl 20 (max), as a result the deck is always stacked against you, so its wiser to go there when ur lvl 20 and tool yourself properly.
they give you the option, but you then run the risk of being inadequate for the task at hand
see plenty of options around temp bans for farming the way you want to farm.
i was mining stuff from high end area's when i was lvl 71 in WoW.. did that make me a criminal, no it made me someone who wanted money to get the things i wanted.
 

HumblePie

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So basically people got the level 10, got their ship, ran to a level 50 planet, and found some level 50 boxes not guarded by NPCs and started looting them? so basically they died many times to reach those boxes in the first place and used knowledge they obtained in beta to reach those boxes to gain an unfair advantage over other players who didn't know about these lootable chests.

While I don't think a permanent ban is the solution, what Bioware is currently doing I don't have a problem with. They warned the offenders, and then gave them temp bans for continuing using what they deem is an exploit until they can fix it. I'm guessing by either removing the boxes or putting npcs of the appropriate level to guard those boxes.
 

maniacalpha1-1

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So basically people got the level 10, got their ship, ran to a level 50 planet, and found some level 50 boxes not guarded by NPCs and started looting them? so basically they died many times to reach those boxes in the first place and used knowledge they obtained in beta to reach those boxes to gain an unfair advantage over other players who didn't know about these lootable chests.

While I don't think a permanent ban is the solution, what Bioware is currently doing I don't have a problem with. They warned the offenders, and then gave them temp bans for continuing using what they deem is an exploit until they can fix it. I'm guessing by either removing the boxes or putting npcs of the appropriate level to guard those boxes.

What exactly is in those boxes? Loot that can be sold for credits? Armor? or?

I will say, how does anyone find out about anything except by exploring and trying? And so now we're going to punish people for exploring and trial and error? They should start warning people "don't go anywhere or try anything above your level, because if we somehow left a loophole that lets you succeed at it, you're banned".
 

darkewaffle

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Oct 7, 2005
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This is why we need gamers' rights protected. It should be specified that players are not held responsible to "know that something wasn't intended/meant for their level/etc". The gaming company is the professionals and you can't legislate morality, much less virtual morality.

The unfairness of a ban outweights the unfairness of an exploit, especially when they have the capability of doing rollbacks(meaning go into the player's account and specifically remove the unintended items) or other solutions.

I also don't accept the excuse of not being able to change the code quickly enough. I bet you they could very quickly simply close the zone to people under level 40 as a temporary solution while the make other changes that might take time, such as recoding the boxes not to be lootable under level 40.

Ignorantia juris non excusat.

It's their game, it is their right to run it as they see fit just as much as it is your right to play it as you see fit. But when those ideas conflict, I know who wins.

Personally I'd be annoyed if it was me, but given how quick the "outrage" was over slicing, I think they're just nipping the next problem in the bud until they decide on/implement actual mechanics to restrict it, especially when there's so many bugs to address and rough edges to smooth on the game. This approach does something about the problem without tying up resources.
 

maniacalpha1-1

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Ignorantia juris non excusat.

It's their game, it is their right to run it as they see fit just as much as it is your right to play it as you see fit. But when those ideas conflict, I know who wins.

Personally I'd be annoyed if it was me, but given how quick the "outrage" was over slicing, I think they're just nipping the next problem in the bud until they decide on/implement actual mechanics to restrict it, especially when there's so many bugs to address and rough edges to smooth on the game. This approach does something about the problem without tying up resources.

Sed populo pugnandum est contra iura iniusta.

This is why I say we need laws that protect against unjust EULAs. Simply saying that the EULA we have to agree to gives them that right does not end the discussion, it merely moves to the next step of how we should be legally protected against unfair bans. Contracts such as EULA are still subject to the law and the law can act to invalidate contracts that are against the public good.

Again, right now the bans are temporary and if I KNEW they wouldn't step up to unfair permanent bans, I might not care so much. But I don't know that.
 

KeithTalent

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You are paying them to use their resources and play their game and you agree to their terms when doing so. If you don't like it you can complain and hope they change it, if they don't, and I don't know why they would in this case as I agree with them giving temp bans for people exploiting, then move on and play something else.

If I was using an exploit over and over I would expect to receive some sort of infraction or ban as I am no longer just impacting my character within the world, I am impacting the game for everyone else. Seems logical to me. /shrug

KT
 

maniacalpha1-1

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You are paying them to use their resources and play their game and you agree to their terms when doing so. If you don't like it you can complain and hope they change it, if they don't, and I don't know why they would in this case as I agree with them giving temp bans for people exploiting, then move on and play something else.

If I was using an exploit over and over I would expect to receive some sort of infraction or ban as I am no longer just impacting my character within the world, I am impacting the game for everyone else. Seems logical to me. /shrug

KT

First of all, I'm not talking about complaining to the gaming company, I have LONG since realized they do NOT care, I'm talking about there should be laws that should protect the gamer from the gaming company. Impossible I know, since no legislator would take games seriously except when trying to ban them all for being violent. When you rent a car you're using the car rental company's resources, but there are almost certainly laws that prevent them from simply giving you an unsafe car to use, for example. The fact that it's their resources doesn't mean there shouldn't be restraints of some kind on them.


Secondly, you are agreeing with the gaming company placing responsibility on the player to be the judge of whether something is an exploit or not. This is wrong. The gaming company are (supposedly) the professionals here. To give you an extreme example, suggesting that people should know whether something is an exploit is like a doctor getting mad at a patient for not being able to self-diagnose themselves. Sure, some people can do it even though they've never had medical training, but imposing this requirement on all players just because a few people might know the difference between intended or unintended?

So basically, the players who may or may not have recognized that these were "exploits" get banned and, while in these early days it's not so bad, but a year from now when the permabans start rolling in, people will be losing characters with hundreds of hours put into them, the players lose hundreds of hours spent, while the developers who made these mistakes, they aren't required to pay back any of their salary earned for their time.
 

Beev

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If all Bioware did was say "oops lol" and then fixed it the next day that does NOT mean it's ok for the exploiters to continue doing so for the rest of the day. They can suck it up and take their 1 day ban. Blizzard handed out a bunch of temp bans for an exploit just this last patch.

Are you doing something in the game that seems wrong, as if it wasn't intended by the devs? If so, and you keep doing it, you deserve a temp ban. Flat out.
 

KeithTalent

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First of all, I'm not talking about complaining to the gaming company, I have LONG since realized they do NOT care, I'm talking about there should be laws that should protect the gamer from the gaming company. Impossible I know, since no legislator would take games seriously except when trying to ban them all for being violent. When you rent a car you're using the car rental company's resources, but there are almost certainly laws that prevent them from simply giving you an unsafe car to use, for example. The fact that it's their resources doesn't mean there shouldn't be restraints of some kind on them.


Secondly, you are agreeing with the gaming company placing responsibility on the player to be the judge of whether something is an exploit or not. This is wrong. The gaming company are (supposedly) the professionals here. To give you an extreme example, suggesting that people should know whether something is an exploit is like a doctor getting mad at a patient for not being able to self-diagnose themselves. Sure, some people can do it even though they've never had medical training, but imposing this requirement on all players just because a few people might know the difference between intended or unintended?

So basically, the players who may or may not have recognized that these were "exploits" get banned and, while in these early days it's not so bad, but a year from now when the permabans start rolling in, people will be losing characters with hundreds of hours put into them, the players lose hundreds of hours spent, while the developers who made these mistakes, they aren't required to pay back any of their salary earned for their time.

That car company analogy is absurd; a game is not life or death, it is something you do with your free time. An unsafe car can kill you, so the law interjecting makes sense, an unfair game can really only annoy you...

Your second analogy is almost as bad, but to your point, from the exploits I've read about in this game and in other MMOs I've played, they are quite obvious to tell they are indeed exploits.

Also, I would bet dollars to doughnuts the people using the exploits are not nubs like me, they are players who are well aware of how these things works in MMOs and are doing this with a full sense of the impact. Pleading ignorance does not fly in that case. I know I am generalizing, but I would be very, very surprised if that was not the case.

KT
 

maniacalpha1-1

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That car company analogy is absurd; a game is not life or death, it is something you do with your free time. An unsafe car can kill you, so the law interjecting makes sense, an unfair game can really only annoy you...

Your second analogy is almost as bad, but to your point, from the exploits I've read about in this game and in other MMOs I've played, they are quite obvious to tell they are indeed exploits.

Also, I would bet dollars to doughnuts the people using the exploits are not nubs like me, they are players who are well aware of how these things works in MMOs and are doing this with a full sense of the impact. Pleading ignorance does not fly in that case. I know I am generalizing, but I would be very, very surprised if that was not the case.

KT

Perhaps I should have found a more applicable analogy. Well then: How about airlines forcing people to sit on the plane for 4 hours? That's mostly an annoyance too, yet we now have laws protecting us from it. And what's more annoying? Losing 300 hours of a character or 4 hours on a plane? I'm sure there are even better examples out there, were I to be able to find them. Yes, I'm aware that for a diabetic or something like that, being trapped on a plane is bad. Please, filter such a possibility out of this example.

To be fair, though, I am not worried about obvious exploits. I'm worried more about the ones that either aren't obvious OR the ones that are harmless and virtually everyone does, the kind that result in EXTREMELY minor conveniences and do not result in getting loots or credits, or whatever. The kind that, internally in their development team they may flag it as "Who cares, not worth fixing, leave as-is" but their customer service team never got that memo.
 
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KeithTalent

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Perhaps I should have found a more applicable analogy. Well then: How about airlines forcing people to sit on the plane for 4 hours? That's mostly an annoyance too, yet we now have laws protecting us from it. And what's more annoying? Losing 300 hours of a character or 4 hours on a plane? I'm sure there are even better examples out there, were I to be able to find them. Yes, I'm aware that for a diabetic or something like that, being trapped on a plane is bad. Please, filter such a possibility out of this example.

To be fair, though, I am not worried about obvious exploits. I'm worried more about the ones that either aren't obvious OR the ones that are harmless and virtually everyone does, the kind that result in EXTREMELY minor conveniences and do not result in getting loots or credits, or whatever. The kind that, internally in their development team they may flag it as "Who cares" but their customer service team never got that memo.

I suppose, but there are instances where being stuck on a plane for four hours impacts will not only annoy you, but impact you financially (missing connections, missing meetings, etc.). Anyway, I know what you are trying to say, but I feel you are putting far too much weight on a video game character and I can't really think of something analogous in real life.

I do agree with your second point. I would hope, in those cases, there would be some sort of dialogue between all parties to hopefully resolve that. I have no idea how that works now as I just play the game when I have time and the only outside knowledge I have about the game comes form this thread. I have no desire to read the official forums and have not visited them once.

KT