• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

** Official Star Craft 2 Multiplayer Thread **

Page 40 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

dust

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2008
1,339
1
71
I'm not yet ranked. I doubt I'll make it to platinum :D.

If you go 4 rax off 1 base there's no way to get marauders only so I pump marines as well, but I'd say the ratio is 70% marauders to 30% marines.


edit: you have to be aggressive early in the game with this, otherwise there's no point to it, also I'm not building fact/star ports at all.

If I get the Orbital at 20ish the expansion happens in about 8 mins-10 mins to have it running little bit. I'm constantly pushing scv's from the first command center so I get to transfer 10-12 scv's to the second base as soon as it's up. The return from 16 scv's for 8 nodes is quite good, obviously 24 is better but there's wasted time as well. Also I find that the 2 initial refineries are sufficient for the push, you'd probably add the other two at 140-150 supply but it's gg before that usually.
nelson 366
 
Last edited:

Dumac

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2005
9,391
1
0
I'm not yet ranked. I doubt I'll make it to platinum :D.

If you go 4 rax off 1 base there's no way to get marauders only so I pump marines as well, but I'd say the ratio is 70% marauders to 30% marines.


edit: you have to be aggressive early in the game with this, otherwise there's no point to it, also I'm not building fact/star ports at all.

If I get the Orbital at 20ish the expansion happens in about 8 mins-10 mins to have it running little bit. I'm constantly pushing scv's from the first command center so I get to transfer 10-12 scv's to the second base as soon as it's up. The return from 16 scv's for 8 nodes is quite good, obviously 24 is better but there's wasted time as well. Also I find that the 2 initial refineries are sufficient for the push, you'd probably add the other two at 140-150 supply but it's gg before that usually.
nelson 366
You don't sound like you are being aggressive at all.

You build FOUR BARRACKS before expanding, which is more than normal (i.e. you are expanding late). Not to mention it sounds like you are just sitting your base this whole time. Then you build and expansion, an extra four barracks, and then push? Not to mention this is all slowed down by supposed constant production from all 4 rax.

By this time your opponent can either have a vastly superior economy or tech, or harassed you to death already. Not to mention your lack of marines may work well against protoss, but will serve you poorly against zerg.

It seems like 4rax off 1 base would be some weird timing attack all in, but your expansion after confuses me. Not to mention your lack of medivacs makes you terribly immobile, susceptible to harassment, and weaker due to lack of heals.

Also what is "nelson 366"
 

dust

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2008
1,339
1
71
You don't sound like you are being aggressive at all.

You build FOUR BARRACKS before expanding, which is more than normal (i.e. you are expanding late). Not to mention it sounds like you are just sitting your base this whole time. Then you build and expansion, an extra four barracks, and then push? Not to mention this is all slowed down by supposed constant production from all 4 rax.

By this time your opponent can either have a vastly superior economy or tech, or harassed you to death already. Not to mention your lack of marines may work well against protoss, but will serve you poorly against zerg.

It seems like 4rax off 1 base would be some weird timing attack all in, but your expansion after confuses me. Not to mention your lack of medivacs makes you terribly immobile, susceptible to harassment, and weaker due to lack of heals.

Also what is "nelson 366"
Ah ok! Point taken. I'm not saying it's the best strategy out there, I just replied to the poster saying that 1 base can only supply 3 rax for a continuous flow of units, that's it. I also added that it works for me in combat, I might not have played it against enough human players, that's true, but it did work whenever I applied it.

You might be a diamond or platinum player, I wouldn't know, and you can tell if it's wrong or right, but the speed is subjective and there's a long ladder before you even reach platinum, let alone diamond, so many of the players in-between might not think as well as you do.

The last quote has an obvious answer I think, I only put it because I might have already played against/with some of the posters here and if so, it should be easy enough for them to watch the replays.
 

eLiu

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2001
6,407
1
0
Ah ok! Point taken. I'm not saying it's the best strategy out there, I just replied to the poster saying that 1 base can only supply 3 rax for a continuous flow of units, that's it. I also added that it works for me in combat, I might not have played it against enough human players, that's true, but it did work whenever I applied it.

You might be a diamond or platinum player, I wouldn't know, and you can tell if it's wrong or right, but the speed is subjective and there's a long ladder before you even reach platinum, let alone diamond, so many of the players in-between might not think as well as you do.

The last quote has an obvious answer I think, I only put it because I might have already played against/with some of the posters here and if so, it should be easy enough for them to watch the replays.
70% marauders is way too many marauders. Marauders are there to soak up damage and die. Marines have much higher DPS & should be your primary damage dealer in an infantry army. (I mean, unless your opponent is like "HURRRR ONLY ROACHEZ GOGOGOG.") But having a ton of marauders means like... zerglings, mutas, chargelots, immortals will annihilate you. You'll be able to charge into tanks & colossi more easily, and you'll crush roaches and (to a lesser extent) stalkers. But you leave a lot of gaps there.

I stand behind my claim of 3rax per base. If you have 4 tech lab rax & only some of them are making marauders, you don't really need 4 tech lab rax. At 2 tech lab + 1 reactor raxes, you really are spending most of your income. You could probably afford to have a 4th rax (no addons) making marines, but you'd be broke--forget about upgrades.

Being in battle constantly and thus not having to build depots changes this story a bit. But those situations shouldn't last too long. I mean I think they happen 1) when you're under heavy attack & are barely scratching by or 2) you cut economy, upgrades, and/or expansions to build a relatively large army quickly & push (still need depots here but you get to cut scvs instead, say).

Also, every game is different, but unless you or your opponent are in the fight of your lives, expanding by the 7-8 minute mark usually going to be pretty strong. Like if your opponent has a massive death army and you have to 1-base to not die, then fine don't expand (similarly if he's locking down your expansion some other way, like w/DTs). Or if he expands super-fast and you think you can break him, then delay yours and fight hard (this is pretty tough against good players). Otherwise, getting the second base as soon as its safe is quite important.

Basically, the more economy you can have (and still stay alive), the better. Experiment. You'll probably lose some games at the start if your sense of timing is off for this. But in the long run it'd probably improve your play.

The 3rax build I use is pretty "normal" but I would suggest trying it out. I wouldn't be surprised if the resulting amry you have at various time points is actually bigger w/the 3rax + expand + more production structs. You can be building out of 3rax from the get-go & then adding more rax (due to the expansion) around the same time you'd be adding your 3rd & 4th rax anyway. Give it a try. Get 1 rax at 12ish and the other 2 around 18-19 (after orbital at 16). Get stim pretty early on & add the others as you see fit.

And get medivacs. You will literally be amazed at how much stronger your MM ball is with the 3rd M. You can let the factory collect dust if you desire, but omfg get medivacs if you're using an infantry army. It doesn't have to be super early (I don't until after my first expansion), but they are SO useful.
 
Last edited:

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,876
452
126
You can do a mid-game scout with the useless Factory too, something a lot of players don't do. :)
 

dust

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2008
1,339
1
71
I first got this stuff running in coop 3v3, I found it to be extremely effective at pushing back the first AI wave and retaliate, going 3 rax and expanding early might leave one of the team players with the pants down. Sure is nice to tech up but the Medivacs are tier 3 and there's no way to have them in time for the first counter, after that it's just a matter of more units and I kinda prefer getting more infantry than healing the existing one.

I don't believe there's a flawless strategy and there are many factors to consider, probably the most important being the opponent's moves.

Lol @ DSano-it's kinda o a giveaway of what you're doing also isn't it, hell you scout for both you and your opponent, as he'll know you have no tanks/thors.
 

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,876
452
126
By mid game, your opponent will already have known that you are MMM. The factory scout helps unveil high ground and also saves you from using a valuable comsat scan.
 

eLiu

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2001
6,407
1
0
I first got this stuff running in coop 3v3, I found it to be extremely effective at pushing back the first AI wave and retaliate, going 3 rax and expanding early might leave one of the team players with the pants down. Sure is nice to tech up but the Medivacs are tier 3 and there's no way to have them in time for the first counter, after that it's just a matter of more units and I kinda prefer getting more infantry than healing the existing one.

I don't believe there's a flawless strategy and there are many factors to consider, probably the most important being the opponent's moves.

Lol @ DSano-it's kinda o a giveaway of what you're doing also isn't it, hell you scout for both you and your opponent, as he'll know you have no tanks/thors.
I'd be somewhat hesitant of developing strategies against the AI. They don't quite play like humans do, and below 'very hard' or perhaps 'insane', they're often pretty deficient. Like look at how many workers the medium & hard AI build: pathetically few.

I've done some co-op w/friends against AI before, and the 3rax into expand has never failed me. I time the expansion to go up after the first AI attack. It's also what I play 1v1 vs insane. The AI is excellent at coordinating w/itself (surprise!), so we hold the xel-nagas and move to help the person they're going after. If your co-op team is really uncoordinated, then 1-basing is probably more advisable so that you don't die. But this is generally not a good plan.

Lastly, I would never assume that you'll just up and win after the first counter-attack. With the AI, sure b/c below like 'very hard', their economy is too terrible to recover from the loss of their initial push or two. So if you defend those, you win. Against (decent) human players, that just isn't going to happen. Don't plan on winning the game by the 10 or 15 minute mark. *Opening* marine/marauder is great. But you need to transition into some kind of tech (hopefully tech that complements your opening) for the mid-game. Late game, you may often find yourself reverting to hoardes of low tech units, like after both high-tech armies are traded off, if you have 12 rax & whip out 24 marines, you'll be in a pretty good spot. Going uber-tech like bcruisers or blords late game is also an option.

Also, I highly doubt that you can never afford to build a factory and then a starport. If you are literally that broke on infantry alone & are making enough SCVs, then wow, that's some impressive macro. Even in pro-games you see their macro "slip" so that they have a few hundred minerals/gas laying around. In addition to healing (which really improves the staying power of your army; units that are being healed are really hard to kill unless they get target fired), medivacs also provide vision. You can move them to see when the enemy tanks un-siege & then attack. Having the starport ready will really help you out against colossi (bcruisers, carriers, blords too but they're less common) b/c you can mix in a handful of vikings. And should you need mobile detection (raven), you won't be as far from it--just need to swap with a tech lab rax.
 

dust

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2008
1,339
1
71
Your micro is probably better than mine, but, like you said, you played with friends, or more importantly, you knew their level of play. Now if you go and randomize your team you may have some surprises, like having them tech to voids/banshees or even battlecruisers/carriers with just a bunker or two or some cannons to defend their base from the first push, meaning they will never be able to support you if you're the one being attacked first. Now pushing back three hard AI at once is not impossible, but you'd certainly want as many units as possible for this and that's where the 4th rax comes along. There's nothing you can do with 4 and you can't with 3 I agree, but time is of the essence.

I must have played like 600 games and rarely I got the same team, there are some that don't know how to straight tech and they only do rushes(cannons, bunkers,lings/crawlers) and if they somehow decide to try their hand and build normally, usually they don't have ANY units to mix with yours for counter, their macro sucks, at the end of the game you see they have like 20 gatherers and the economy score below two AI.

Now if there are 2 protoss in the AI team, the usually means 4 stalkers and a shitload of zealots for the first push and when they reach your terran base they transform anything into slices, that's where you need the extra units.

Regarding the resources, I have plenty mid-game, it's only a choice to not build advanced buildings, not an impossibility. I, sometimes, choose to get two,three factories up after expanding to mix some thors in the army, but I'm loosing mobility quite a bit.

The lack of detection is what I find to be the major drawback of going MM's, a couple of banshees or DT's and a lack of scan energy might make the day pretty bleak.
 

xCxStylex

Senior member
Apr 6, 2003
710
0
0
I don't play with anyone here from AT, but I just wanted to brag/announce that I finally made diamond in 1v1 last night :D 20-15 is my 1v1 record so far
 
Jul 10, 2007
12,050
3
0
PvP, how do i stop mass carriers?

i'm playing FFA and this has happened to me twice now.
i'm going gateway/robo units, i take out 1 guy, and then expand. by the time i move on to the next one, he has like 15 carriers waiting for me.

my obs sees this so i pretty much have gone all stalkers with blink. so i have about 10-12 gates, 120 food on 3 base and he steam rolls me with his carriers.

i check the replay and the other 2 guys (4 player FFA) are just massing units not attacking each other, only 1 expansion each.

i'm heavily invested in gateway/forge tech so transitioning to air is going to take me longer.
do i kite with pheonix?
 
Last edited:

NYHoustonman

Platinum Member
Dec 8, 2002
2,642
0
0
PvP, how do i stop mass carriers?

i'm playing FFA and this has happened to me twice times now.
i'm going gateway/robo units, i take out 1 guy, and then expand. by the time i move on to the next one, he has like 15 carriers waiting for me.

my obs sees this so i pretty much have gone all stalkers with blink. so i have about 10-12 gates, 120 food on 3 base and he steam rolls me with his carriers.

i check the replay and the other 2 guys (4 player FFA) are just massing units not attacking each other, only 1 expansion each.

i'm heavily invested in gateway/forge tech so transitioning to air is going to take me longer.
do i kite with pheonix?
Given their shorter range, I don't think you'd be able to kite with Phoenixes. Maybe Void Rays? Carriers have enough shields/HP that you ought to be able to build up a charge (if you haven't before you enter battle).
 

HomerX

Member
Mar 2, 2010
184
0
0
PvP, how do i stop mass carriers?

i'm playing FFA and this has happened to me twice now.
i'm going gateway/robo units, i take out 1 guy, and then expand. by the time i move on to the next one, he has like 15 carriers waiting for me.

my obs sees this so i pretty much have gone all stalkers with blink. so i have about 10-12 gates, 120 food on 3 base and he steam rolls me with his carriers.

i check the replay and the other 2 guys (4 player FFA) are just massing units not attacking each other, only 1 expansion each.

i'm heavily invested in gateway/forge tech so transitioning to air is going to take me longer.
do i kite with pheonix?
did you use Sentries with guardian shield? They are great at reducing the carrier dmg which gives your stalkers more time to focus down the carriers.. but with 15 carriers this will be difficult..

mass psi-storm might be an option in an attempt to destroy a lot of interceptors... cover the area on and around the carriers with psi storms and engage them with stalkers -> blink away when the interceptors arrive and psi storm them... if a vast amount of interceptors is destroyed it takes some time to reproduce them and they are very vulnerable now.
i have not tried this but i could see this working because the interceptors have not many hp and they are clumping up when engaging a single target.
 

KillerCharlie

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2005
3,676
56
91
I've been playing a lot of 4v4 random recently. I've been #1 in my platinum division for a month... a month. How the heck do I get to platinum? I have like 1850 points.

Oh, and in 3v3 and 4v4 I always make a minimum of 4 rax. If I'm going mech I'll make a ton of factories - more than my economy could afford if I sustained production.

However, there's value in having extra capacity. Sometimes you need to suddenly make a ton of units and having just 3 rax doesn't cut it.
 
Last edited:

Dumac

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2005
9,391
1
0
I've been playing a lot of 4v4 random recently. I've been #1 in my platinum division for a month... a month. How the heck do I get to platinum? I have like 1850 points.
It has nothing to do with rank or point. It just has to do with your win %, and who you are winning against and losing to.

Once you starting winning overwhelming against platinum players, they'll make you play diamond players, and once you have a high enough win % against them, you'll get promoted.
 

KillerCharlie

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2005
3,676
56
91
Holy crap.... so I decided to try 1v1. I'm platinum in all the other leagues, but I got my butt handed to me over and over and placed in silver. Then I lost 2/3 games after that. 1v1 is just so completely different. I would always win the first battle but then fall behind. I think it'll a while until I can figure how to counter enemy units. Zealots+stalkers+collosus was the worst.

The only game I won after placing was interesting... I was about to rush him with mm when I scanned and saw 3 tanks. I was still about to charge but called it off last second. Instead of going air, I just built a bunch of tanks, bunkers, and turrets outside his main. I just kept making more and more tanks and mm outside his main. He would try to sneak a command center out but I'd shoot it down with vikings. I won the game without killing any units.

It's going to be a loooong time until I can even make to platinum. Any tips for getting better? I play terran for now.
 

HomerX

Member
Mar 2, 2010
184
0
0
1v1 is just so completely different. I would always win the first battle but then fall behind. Any tips for getting better? I play terran for now.
This sounds like you areeconomically behind your opponents after the first battle and they are able to outproduce you.

if you stay on one base/build a lot of units early, you have to be aggressive early, especially if your opponent builds a lot of workers/expansions.

If you wait to long the makro of the opponent kicks in and he is able to stop your attack and now its one base vs two/three base...

you need to get a feel for the right timings... but really if you stay a long time on one base and your opponent expands you have to do a lot of dmg with your units! if this does not fit your playstile then try to expand early and defend.
 

Dumac

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2005
9,391
1
0
Zealots+stalkers+collosus was the worst.
Simply go MMM, then switch into viking production after you get a few medivacs. Vikings pretty much negate colossi at lower levels, and mot low level players squeeze in colossi in one or two bases, so taking them out is a big blow to their army strength.

zealot/stalker/colossi is pretty easy to counter as terran...

most P builds are easy to counter as Terran, excluding very specific 1 base timing attacks, which I hate (yet are very popular on ladder)
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
10,949
239
106
What I hate about random teams is that they mix the groups to make teams. The teams don't work well. They should try to keep people of the same skills together better. There shouldn't be more than 1 rank difference between any players.
 

PUN

Golden Member
Dec 5, 1999
1,589
12
81
Just won a random 4v4 against 4 primary zergs (all plat/diamonds), 2 protoss and 2 terrans on my team. The usual 6 pool gay rush from all 4 zergs. We were able to fend them off at the choke point with 2 cannons and 4 marines. Expanded quickly with 8 cannons, while pumping vr (6 pool lings always suffer a backlash). No aa from the zergs, mutas, and infestation came too late to counter. They tried micro-ing the units by shuffling the low health with the full health ones, but we kept them assigned and micro-ed.
 

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,876
452
126
It does seem like 6 pool has a very bad draw back if it fails. Was playing some 2v2 with a friend against two zergs. He was Protoss, I ended up with Zerg(Randomed) and they six pooled. I pushed for quick roaches and my friend didn't do a good job walling in so they were raping his probes and stuff. I was able to pump out a few roaches to help him and reinforce it with more roaches to kill one of the zergs.
 

PUN

Golden Member
Dec 5, 1999
1,589
12
81
It does seem like 6 pool has a very bad draw back if it fails. Was playing some 2v2 with a friend against two zergs. He was Protoss, I ended up with Zerg(Randomed) and they six pooled. I pushed for quick roaches and my friend didn't do a good job walling in so they were raping his probes and stuff. I was able to pump out a few roaches to help him and reinforce it with more roaches to kill one of the zergs.
Yeah, when you see 2+ zergs on 4v4, they are sure to 6 pool you.
I never lose a game against the 2+ zergs in 3v3/4v4. As a protoss, i block the choke point with 2 canons, then straight to VR and finish. As a terran, one bunker with 4 marines and 4 scv is enough to withstand 2-3 6 pool zerg rush. Mass seige tanks with Mauraders and Turrets on their base is a sure win.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
10,949
239
106
Yeah, when you see 2+ zergs on 4v4, they are sure to 6 pool you.
I never lose a game against the 2+ zergs in 3v3/4v4. As a protoss, i block the choke point with 2 canons, then straight to VR and finish. As a terran, one bunker with 4 marines and 4 scv is enough to withstand 2-3 6 pool zerg rush. Mass seige tanks with Mauraders and Turrets on their base is a sure win.
turrets from the raven?
 

PUN

Golden Member
Dec 5, 1999
1,589
12
81
turrets from the raven?
Nope, actual turrets from SCV.
I usually mass 6-8 siege tanks with 10 Mauraders + Marines. about 10 Turrets (depends on their air units) with SCV, Siege, Scan, GG.
 
Last edited:

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,793
825
126
I wish you could rejoin a game if you dropped or had to reconnect or whatever like you can in LOL. Furthermore, the penalty for leaving a game early should also be in affect.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
A PC Games 18
rivethead PC Games 30

ASK THE COMMUNITY