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official michigan republican primary thread

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jman19

Lifer
Nov 3, 2000
11,190
608
126
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: jman19
Who do you believe is the "most true" conservative running for the Republicans this time around?
Ron Paul.

Although Fred Thompson is right on his heels.

The rest of the crowd is rather disgusting.
Agreed.

What I find truly sad is that it seems like a good deal of the country talks about voting for a conservative, whereas the polls and election results show just the opposite. They want someone who acts like one and then spends, spends, spends :thumbsdown:
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,033
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Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: jman19
Who do you believe is the "most true" conservative running for the Republicans this time around?
Ron Paul.

Although Fred Thompson is right on his heels.

The rest of the crowd is rather disgusting.
Just out of curiosity, since Paul and Thompson are not viable candidates (leaving aside for the moment the question of whether they should be), who do you like best among the remaining candidates?
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,988
1
0
Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone
Just out of curiosity, since Paul and Thompson are not viable candidates (leaving aside for the moment the question of whether they should be), who do you like best among the remaining candidates?
To be honest, not one of them, on the Republican side. Paul and Thompson are the only two real Conservatives running, and you're right, neither one looks to be going anywhere. Thompson may get some steam if he can pull a surprise 1 or 2 finish in South Carolina but...
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,292
740
126
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone
Empirically, McCain absolutely IS conservative. He has one of the most conservative voting records in the Senate - I think people just assume he isn't because of McCain-Feingold and the fact that he hasn't toed the party line on the President's stupid tax cuts during wartime. He's certainly more conservative than Romney, who only became conservative when he decided to run for President.
On balance, you're correct. McCain is considerably more conservative than Romney, across the board. But he's still not a true conservative. He voted against the Bush tax cuts (twice), tried to bring in amnesty, and now he's off on a global warming tangent. In addition, he goes whichever way the political winds blow. As does Romney.

McCain and Romney both disgust me to no end, and I'm constantly amazed that anyone who calls themselves a true conservative could cast a vote for either one.
Fact, McCain voted NO on the tax cuts because they were fiscally irresponsible without spending cuts. Fiscal conservatism isn't just about tax cuts, it is about sound fiscal policy. The Bush tax cuts were not sound fiscally because of the war in Iraq and they contained no spending cuts.

As for amnesty. No one has said how they would remove all 12million illegals. Frankly its quite impossible.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,988
1
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Originally posted by: Wreckem
Fact, McCain voted NO on the tax cuts because they were fiscal irresponsible without spending cuts. Fiscal conservatism isnt just about tax cuts, it is about sound fiscal policy. The Bush tax cuts were not sound fiscally because of the war in Iraq and they contained no spending cuts.
Then why didn't he vote NO when it came time to renew them, too?

McCain doesn't stand on any principle, he's a political opportunist. He blows wherever the polls are at.

I suppose you have an excuse for his attempt to push Amnesty down our throats right along with GWB too...right?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,917
173
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Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone
Empirically, McCain absolutely IS conservative. He has one of the most conservative voting records in the Senate - I think people just assume he isn't because of McCain-Feingold and the fact that he hasn't toed the party line on the President's stupid tax cuts during wartime. He's certainly more conservative than Romney, who only became conservative when he decided to run for President.
On balance, you're correct. McCain is considerably more conservative than Romney, across the board. But he's still not a true conservative. He voted against the Bush tax cuts (twice), tried to bring in amnesty, and now he's off on a global warming tangent. In addition, he goes whichever way the political winds blow. As does Romney.

McCain and Romney both disgust me to no end, and I'm constantly amazed that anyone who calls themselves a true conservative could cast a vote for either one.
Pabster

How do you figure that McCain is more conservative than Romney?

Fern
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,988
1
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Originally posted by: Fern
Pabster

How do you figure that McCain is more conservative than Romney?
Simply from his years in Arizona. Take a look at his voting records.

Romney has literally changed his mind on every single key issue that social conservatives, for example, look to. McCain has had a few changes of heart at times as well, but nothing of the extent Romney has.


 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,917
173
106
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Fern
Pabster

How do you figure that McCain is more conservative than Romney?
Simply from his years in Arizona. Take a look at his voting records.

Romney has literally changed his mind on every single key issue that social conservatives, for example, look to. McCain has had a few changes of heart at times as well, but nothing of the extent Romney has.
Well, there is the 'old" MA gov Romney, and the "new" Pres candidate Romney.

The old one wasn't very conservative, the new one strikes me as VERY conservative.

Illegal immigration - IMO Romney is clearly more conservative if that is defined as no amnesty (no matter how it's "dressed up" in new terminology).

Taxes? Same thing, although all the Repub candidates sound like major tax cutters now. But I would hold McCain's record against him here and give the edge to Romney.

Pro-guns? Hard to sound more pro-2nd amendment than Romney now.

Anti-abortion? Here again Romney is over there woith the Huch wanting to ban it.

Strong National Defense? McCain prolly wins here because we KNOW how he acts wrt this issue.

Ilegal immigration is my biggest issue by far. Romney, Thompson & Paul are the only ones I could vote for based on that issue.

Fern
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,988
1
0
Originally posted by: Fern
Well, there is the 'old" MA gov Romney, and the "new" Pres candidate Romney.

The old one wasn't very conservative, the new one strikes me as VERY conservative.
Precisely my point. Paul and Thompson have solid Conservative records going back decades, they're not opportunists of the moment. Romney is fooling no one, except the drive-by conservatives.

Ilegal immigration is my biggest issue by far. Romney, Thompson & Paul are the only ones I could vote for based on that issue.
It's my top issue too. Which is why I support Fred.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,033
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Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Fern
Pabster

How do you figure that McCain is more conservative than Romney?
Simply from his years in Arizona. Take a look at his voting records.

Romney has literally changed his mind on every single key issue that social conservatives, for example, look to. McCain has had a few changes of heart at times as well, but nothing of the extent Romney has.
Well, there is the 'old" MA gov Romney, and the "new" Pres candidate Romney.

The old one wasn't very conservative, the new one strikes me as VERY conservative.

Illegal immigration - IMO Romney is clearly more conservative if that is defined as no amnesty (no matter how it's "dressed up" in new terminology).

Taxes? Same thing, although all the Repub candidates sound like major tax cutters now. But I would hold McCain's record against him here and give the edge to Romney.

Pro-guns? Hard to sound more pro-2nd amendment than Romney now.

Anti-abortion? Here again Romney is over there woith the Huch wanting to ban it.

Strong National Defense? McCain prolly wins here because we KNOW how he acts wrt this issue.

Ilegal immigration is my biggest issue by far. Romney, Thompson & Paul are the only ones I could vote for based on that issue.

Fern
The problem is, he's lying. He increased taxes and fees substantially in Massachusetts. As for guns, he was caught in a lie when he claimed to be a lifetime hunter, and in fact he has previously been critical of the NRA - he only joined when he was staging for a presidential run. As for abortion, he was strongly pro-choice as recently as 2002. Romney is a moderate who is posing as a conservative. Since I am a Democrat, I am not so much bothered by what appear to be his REAL positions as I am about the fact that he's such a blatant panderer and flip-flopper.

The reality is that I simply don't see any way Romney, Thompson, or Paul will be nominated (nor Huckabee), so soon enough you'll be deciding whether to vote for a Democrat or McCain or Giuliani.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,917
173
106
Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone
The problem is, he's lying. He increased taxes and fees substantially in Massachusetts. As for guns, he was caught in a lie when he claimed to be a lifetime hunter, and in fact he has previously been critical of the NRA - he only joined when he was staging for a presidential run. As for abortion, he was strongly pro-choice as recently as 2002. Romney is a moderate who is posing as a conservative. Since I am a Democrat, I am not so much bothered by what appear to be his REAL positions as I am about the fact that he's such a blatant panderer and flip-flopper.

The reality is that I simply don't see any way Romney, Thompson, or Paul will be nominated (nor Huckabee), so soon enough you'll be deciding whether to vote for a Democrat or McCain or Giuliani.
I agree about the what I'd call the "trust issue" as regards Romney.

Who really knows if the "new" one were elected yet govern as the "old" one?

Honestly (and to no ones surprise here) I'll prolly be voting for the Repub in the general election if only to keep one party from controlling all 3 branches.

The way I feel now, I'd prolly vote for the Dem candidate if the Repubs held Congress.

I see veto's as the only hope of controlling pork etc.

Fern
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
0
Although I would really hate to see Romney either win the Republican nomination or gasp the Presidency, Romney is showing early strength. A second in Iowa, a second place in NH, and now a first place in Michigan. Plus a meaningless win in Wyoming. Given a 7 man GOP field, anything over 14.3% makes him competitive. And by in large Romney has been getting a little less than double or triple that vote number in early tests. But what is unclear is how much being the son of a former Michigan governor put Romney over the top.

And with Michigan now history, the picture somewhat shifts to getting other uncompetitive GOP candidates out of the race. The pressure is really on Thompson to score some major support in SC or he may be out of the race. And if McCain flops in SC, he too will be in trouble. I have no idea what Duncan Hunter is doing in the race in the first place. And then if Giuliani does not score big in Florida, he is in serious trouble. And it also looks like Ron Paul has the funds and the stubborn to stay in to the end regardless of support. And even if Huckabee can command the Religious right, everyone else will regard him as a nut.

My best guess is that before or just after super Tuesday, it will be down to a GOP three viable candidate race with Ron Paul thrown in as a joker. And the viable survivors will be
be McCain, Romney, and Giuliani. Figuring Paul support at no more than 7% nationally, that leaves the viable three splitting 93%. And the new bar will be at least 31% of the vote to remain viable. Beyond that, its difficult to think I can make any predictions. But its still hard to see any GOP candidate arriving at the convention with the nomination in their pocket unless its a two viable GOP candidate race early on.

But if Iraq erupts into major violence during the primaries, its hard to see McCain remaining viable. And the probable recession plays into pie in the sky promises both Giuliani and Romney are likely to make.
 

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