OFFICIAL: Atomic Structure questions.... (never took chemistry class)

[edro]

Well....I took chemistry in like 9th grade... and I am almost 21 now... so I don't remember anything.
I am reading a book called "The Elegant Universe" which talks about Superstring theory and all that jazz.... but I still have a few questions about things on the atomic level.

If we were to draw the hydrogen atom above to scale, so that the proton were the size depicted above, the electron would actually be spinning approximately 0.5 km (or about a quarter of a mile) away from the nucleus. In other words, if the proton was the size depicted above, the whole atom would be about the size of Giants Stadium.

That is taken from this cheesy, but informative site: Atomic Structure

Exactly how fast is the electron spinning around the proton? Extremely fast, so it appears like a cloud, or what?

How do different protons combine with other protons to create elements? Basically, what are those black rods connecting the protons that are on all of those diagrams you see.... like here: Here is a good example...

 

[Ophir]

Originally posted by: edro13
Exactly how fast is the electron spinning around the proton? Extremely fast, so it appears like a cloud, or what?

You just tried to open a big can of worms. The electron cloud you see is actually the probability density of the electron being at that position at any one given point in time. Without getting into quantum mechanical theory, the electorn cloud approximates the volume of space where the electron can occupy 99% of the time. There is a lot of math and physics which is probably out of the scope of your question, but if you're interested there's a lot of info out there on the web. Just google "intro quantum mechanics".

How do different protons combine with other protons to create elements? Basically, what are those black rods connecting the protons that are on all of those diagrams you see.... like here: Here is a good example...

The protons do not physically combine, as that would be a nuclear fusion process. The atoms combine when the clouds of their electrons overlap. When they overlap, both atoms share the combined cloud in a process called covalent bonding. In your picture this combined cloud would be the black rods. Atoms can also donate electrons to form ionic bonds, such as in table salt.

It kinda gets complicated from there.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: edro13
Well....I took chemistry in like 9th grade... and I am almost 21 now... so I don't remember anything.
I am reading a book called "The Elegant Universe" which talks about Superstring theory and all that jazz.... but I still have a few questions about things on the atomic level.

If we were to draw the hydrogen atom above to scale, so that the proton were the size depicted above, the electron would actually be spinning approximately 0.5 km (or about a quarter of a mile) away from the nucleus. In other words, if the proton was the size depicted above, the whole atom would be about the size of Giants Stadium.

That is taken from this cheesy, but informative site: Atomic Structure

Exactly how fast is the electron spinning around the proton? Extremely fast, so it appears like a cloud, or what?

How do different protons combine with other protons to create elements? Basically, what are those black rods connecting the protons that are on all of those diagrams you see.... like here: Here is a good example...

the black bars are the strong nuclear force.

the electrons don't actually orbit... the pop in and out of exisitence at random locations in specific shells around the nucleus of the atom, depending on their energy

 

[zzzz]

The black bars denote the bond(sharing of electrons) between two atoms. The picture you linked to is that of a molecule formed by elements; not that of an element formed by protons as you suggest in your post.

 

[Ophir]

Originally posted by: edro13

How do different protons combine with other protons to create elements? Basically, what are those black rods connecting the protons that are on all of those diagrams you see.... like here: Here is a good example...

Sorry, I read your question wrong. You see a bit confused. The picture you linked is of ethane, which is a molecule, or a group of atoms bonded to each other. Atoms bond in the processes I defined earlier. In the case of ethane, the white spheres are carbon atoms and the red spheres are hydrogen atoms. Elements, or atoms, are groups of protons and neutrons fused together to form nuclei with electrons surrounding them. The nuclei IIRC are formed in a fusion process which requires insane amounts of energy, like in a star or some sort of cosmic event.

 

[Ophir]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: edro13
Well....I took chemistry in like 9th grade... and I am almost 21 now... so I don't remember anything.
I am reading a book called "The Elegant Universe" which talks about Superstring theory and all that jazz.... but I still have a few questions about things on the atomic level.

If we were to draw the hydrogen atom above to scale, so that the proton were the size depicted above, the electron would actually be spinning approximately 0.5 km (or about a quarter of a mile) away from the nucleus. In other words, if the proton was the size depicted above, the whole atom would be about the size of Giants Stadium.

That is taken from this cheesy, but informative site: Atomic Structure

Exactly how fast is the electron spinning around the proton? Extremely fast, so it appears like a cloud, or what?

How do different protons combine with other protons to create elements? Basically, what are those black rods connecting the protons that are on all of those diagrams you see.... like here: Here is a good example...

the black bars are the strong nuclear force.

Wrong. The black rods are chemical bonds, which hold molecules together. IIRC the strong nuclear force is what holds the nuclei together. I can't tell you exactly how, as I don't really know.

the electrons don't actually orbit... the pop in and out of exisitence at random locations in specific shells around the nucleus of the atom, depending on their energy

This is true. A bit simplified, but the premise is correct.

 

[edro]

Ok.... so the electrons don't actually orbit the protons? Explain the whole cloud thing again? Anyone have any good links or pics to explain it? Wouldn't the orbitting electrons crash into each other, especially when you join 2 or more protons together?

 

[wfbberzerker]

Originally posted by: edro13
Ok.... so the electrons don't actually orbit the protons? Explain the whole cloud thing again? Anyone have any good links or pics to explain it? Wouldn't the orbitting electrons crash into each other, especially when you join 2 or more protons together?

the idea behind each of the "shells" of an atom is that at any given point in time, the electron will be somewhere in that shell. i'm making this really simplified, since there are people who know more about this than me. they dont crash into eachother because the negative charge always keeps them as far apart as possible (i think)

 

[Ophir]

Try this site: Todds Quantum Intro
and possibly this one: link page

 

[zephyrprime]

they dont crash into eachother because the negative charge always keeps them as far apart as possible (i think)

The negative charge does repel them but even if they were to collide, it wouldn't really do anything. It's not like 2 cars colliding. It's like 2 indestructable objects colliding.

 

[edro]

Hmmm.... anymore input?

 

[Electric Amish]

Originally posted by: edro13
Hmmm.... anymore input?

These replies pretty much have it covered. There could be more complexity added (proton spin, different obitals, etc), as I'm sure they've all stripped their answers down to basics.

amish

 

[sygyzy]

OT: But what makes a thread Official? Do people just randomly toss in that in the title?

 

[Izzo]

Originally posted by: edro13
Ok.... so the electrons don't actually orbit the protons? Explain the whole cloud thing again? Anyone have any good links or pics to explain it? Wouldn't the orbitting electrons crash into each other, especially when you join 2 or more protons together?

Unless you are talking about radiation, nuclear power or the formation of the cosmos, then stop thinking of 2 or more protons coming together. It doesn't happen. If you want to think of elecrons as particles, then imagine they have their own areas (or orbitals) in which to inhabit. Here is a link that shows you each of the orbitals in which an electron can inhabit. There is a special ordering system that dictates which electron fills which orbital.

 

[edro]

Originally posted by: sygyzy
OT: But what makes a thread Official? Do people just randomly toss in that in the title?

Haha... it makes people like you drop in....

 

[edro]

Originally posted by: Izzo

Originally posted by: edro13
Ok.... so the electrons don't actually orbit the protons? Explain the whole cloud thing again? Anyone have any good links or pics to explain it? Wouldn't the orbitting electrons crash into each other, especially when you join 2 or more protons together?

Unless you are talking about radiation, nuclear power or the formation of the cosmos, then stop thinking of 2 or more protons coming together. It doesn't happen. If you want to think of elecrons as particles, then imagine they have their own areas (or orbitals) in which to inhabit. Here is a link that shows you each of the orbitals in which an electron can inhabit. There is a special ordering system that dictates which electron fills which orbital.

That link is pretty cool. I wish these Physicists were better computer people. All the sites are crappy geocities style, old HTML.... We need some flash animations of proton orbit...

 

[edro]

BooooooooYahhhhhhhhhHh!

 

[Izzo]

Originally posted by: edro13
BooooooooYahhhhhhhhhHh!

I looked at the first flash under "Quantum Mechanics" and without sound it looked pretty cheesy.

Now imagine that wave picture around the nucleus. That's where the first 2 electrons go. Then imagine that same area farther out from the nucleus. that's where the next 2 electrons go. If you go to the link I posted and click on the 2p orbital picture, you will see the shape of the area in which the next electrons go. After the fill the 2px, 2py, and 2pz orbitals, they go further out. And so on and so forth.

The gist of chemical reactions is that when the electrons fill these orbitals, there are configurations in which electrons are more stable. If an element is unstable, it looks to combine with something to make it more stable. For example, a single hydrogen atom is unstable. It has 1 proton and 1 electron. This is a rather high energy system. Nature likes to be as efficient as possible. It just so happens that if 2 hydrogen atoms come within close proximity, they can share their electrons to make a more efficient system. That is why when we talk about hydrogen gas, we mean H2. (1 molecule that contains two linked hydrogen atoms.)

I could go on but I'm not sure if that's what you are looking for.

 

[Dark4ng3l]

The questions you are asking have more complex answers that what you expect. Some people here have given you basic answers. Essentially you can see everything as a partical or a wave(like light) and when you consider things like electrons and protons, etc as waves it has certain implications that contradict classical physics but are correct in nature at the same time.