***Official*** 2011 Stock Market Thread

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Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
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Why did you sell? You should buy when it dips, not sell.

A lack of faith in the stock to return to its current value in a shot amount of time, and the belief that it will fall further than my entry price, thus increasing my profits if I re-enter lower. I'm still new so I'm trying things out, and my approach has made me money so far; it also keeps my paranoid side happy considering what happened in Fall 2009, which has put off a lot of investors.
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
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Tongiht I hope to read up on AbitibiBowater. It's a recent bankruptcy that Prem Watsa is buying into a little bit. Upon a glance, bankruptcy has dropped it's debt load to next to nothing relative to FCF. I have alot of readign to do but that is what makes investing fun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AbitibiBowater

PS: How is your SD holding? I sold mine off yesterday. Not a huge gain, maybe 10%. Another example of missed dollar cost averaging.
I saw that update a day or two ago and decided to put it on my watch list of "interesting companies" to read about. I know nothing about the company besides Prem Watsa's stake.
Still holding SD...
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
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A lack of faith in the stock to return to its current value in a shot amount of time, and the belief that it will fall further than my entry price, thus increasing my profits if I re-enter lower. I'm still new so I'm trying things out, and my approach has made me money so far; it also keeps my paranoid side happy considering what happened in Fall 2009, which has put off a lot of investors.
So your strategy is buy high, sell low?
 

cheezy321

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2003
6,218
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Hey i half payed attention to the 2009 thread and i noticed that a lot of you guys were talking about the RMBS lawsuits and thinking they'd win, how'd that turn out for you? What was the result of the lawsuits? I don't know when most of you bought RMBS:

http://www.google.com/finance?q=RMBS

Bought into RMBS starting 4/27/2009. It was $11.59. Continued to buy more RMBS up to around $16 or so.

Sold half the shares 4/23/2010 @ ~$25
Sold the other half 9/27/2010 @ $20.60

Thanks again Azurik, I made some good $$$ from RMBS :D

I bought into BP mid July 2010. Doing pretty well with that right now, I think I'll sit on BP for a while.
 
Sep 29, 2004
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http://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:DF

How did I miss Dean Foods. Not to late but at $8 2-4 weeks ago it was a bargain. Probably worth $15 or so. Currently in the mid $10s.


PS: Looking to re-establish SD at under $7.20 while takign a 10-20% larger stake this time around. Also, I think Prem shed off some of his AbitibiBowater recently.
 
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Sep 29, 2004
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Today, I bought back into SD for $7.31. It's about 8% of my portfolio now. Sitting on approximately 20% cash.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,828
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So your strategy is buy high, sell low?

Buy high, sell higher, buy back lower than higher, sell when higher, rinse repeat ad infinitum. Trying to catch the 10+ major rises and dips per year each stock has. The spread is usually 5-10%. Very time consuming though.
 

The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,117
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Buy high, sell higher, buy back lower than higher, sell when higher, rinse repeat ad infinitum. Trying to catch the 10+ major rises and dips per year each stock has. The spread is usually 5-10%. Very time consuming though.

Seems so simple.
 

hiromizu

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
3,405
1
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Buy high, sell higher, buy back lower than higher, sell when higher, rinse repeat ad infinitum. Trying to catch the 10+ major rises and dips per year each stock has. The spread is usually 5-10%. Very time consuming though.

Damn bro you figured out the BIG SECRET! That's the winnin' boy's ticket!
 
Sep 29, 2004
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Hmm SD back down to 7.10 today... Very tempting.

I wish I waited one more day. That is apretty good buy in price. Just be sure that you can double your holding should it drop to $5 or so.

I am trying to do some LEAPS in JNJ today. The Jan 2013s at the 85 strike are about 20 cents. JNJ is currently at $61 or so.

Last year, I did this with the Jan 2012 at the 90 strike. Overall, I lost some money. I lost 50-60% of what I had originally invested or about 2% of my portfolio value was lost. It is admitadly a gamble. But a gamble that can pay off big time. There is simply no premium for long term JNJ LEAPS. You can loose out or see your portfolio value jump big time. I figure that this gamble will pay off atleast 1 time out of 10 so it should be net positive upon repetition. Also, I am doing this as a value investor. I see JNJs value conservatively in the low $70s but more realisticly about $95-$100. Great balance sheet and alot of FCF!
 

Demo24

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
8,356
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Just a heads up that Ford's earnings are this Friday before the bell. Also sales figures come out next Tuesday. For the past several months Ford has not pulled back farther than each months lows. Apart from December it's been making new 52w(and even several year) highs every month.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,828
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Seems so simple.

Ha, it's as stupidly hard and stupid as it sounds, but I get a kick out of it, and I'm not losing money, so meh. I sat on the sidelines watching my mutual funds for a year or two, didn't like the inactivity.

At some point I'll start investing "properly".



Major bank correction is here. All but the more solid banks (i.e. JPM and WFC) are dropping like flies.
 

routan

Senior member
Sep 12, 2010
837
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bought at $16 and sold at $24. made about $10k, enough to offset the massive GNVC loss. =P

at $8/share profit, to make $10k, you would have to put in a capital of 20k. im hoping either you have a lot of money to burn, or you are already well diversified.
 

The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,117
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I wish I waited one more day. That is apretty good buy in price. Just be sure that you can double your holding should it drop to $5 or so.

I am trying to do some LEAPS in JNJ today. The Jan 2013s at the 85 strike are about 20 cents. JNJ is currently at $61 or so.

Last year, I did this with the Jan 2012 at the 90 strike. Overall, I lost some money. I lost 50-60% of what I had originally invested or about 2% of my portfolio value was lost. It is admitadly a gamble. But a gamble that can pay off big time. There is simply no premium for long term JNJ LEAPS. You can loose out or see your portfolio value jump big time. I figure that this gamble will pay off atleast 1 time out of 10 so it should be net positive upon repetition. Also, I am doing this as a value investor. I see JNJs value conservatively in the low $70s but more realisticly about $95-$100. Great balance sheet and alot of FCF!

Problem with JNJ is shareholders want even more dividends which come off the share price. For a huge run you need to see an acquisition that has huge synergies to pay off. A $30 run in JNJ means $90B of new money needs to run to JNJ either through buybacks or flows. At this point if you own JNJ you have a model in mind. There are a 100 models you can use for JNJ and they all put you somewhere in the 64-66 range in 12 months.

You either have retention for growth or payout. JNJ Is in payout.
 
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Sep 29, 2004
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Problem with JNJ is shareholders want even more dividends which come off the share price. For a huge run you need to see an acquisition that has huge synergies to pay off. A $30 run in JNJ means $90B of new money needs to run to JNJ either through buybacks or flows. At this point if you own JNJ you have a model in mind. There are a 100 models you can use for JNJ and they all put you somewhere in the 64-66 range in 12 months.

You either have retention for growth or payout. JNJ Is in payout.

I share Buffett's opinion that only one model is needed. I love multiple models though. That's how mispricing occurs. Conservatively (VERY conservatively) JNJ is worth low $70s. Realistically, more like $95-$100.

What exactly do you mean by "new money"? The term is not intuitive or it means that $90 billion of actual dollars needs to be invested by investors into JNJ for it to go up $30/share.
 
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The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
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I share Buffett's opinion that only one model is needed. I love multiple models though. That's how mispricing occurs. Conservatively (VERY conservatively) JNJ is worth low $70s. Realistically, more like $95-$100.

What exactly do you mean by "new money"? The term is not intuitive or it means that $90 billion of actual dollars needs to be invested by investors into JNJ for it to go up $30/share.

That is what it means.

The secondary market is still supply and demand driven. To get to a $90 share price JNJ would have a market cap ~$85B higher or get rid of float significantly, which is the equivalency of paying a dividend. To accomplish this one of three things needs to happen. JNJ purchases more shares and gets rid of float, new money flows into the shares or you have a reduced liquidity pool in which fewer shares trade. i.e. 90% of the float doesn't trade and 10% trades freely so the price melts up on lighter volume having said that there is always going to be providers of liquidity as the shares rise significantly, causing sellers to come into the market and need for more marginal liquidity from the sidelines or other investments to move into JNJ.

Every model, every analyst, every Warren Buffet attempt to provide a reason to purchase liquidity at a higher price. Don't confuse what the market is, it is a way to transfer liquidity. Either in penny gains like high frequency traders or dollar gains like mutual funds, hedge funds and individual holders. In the end assuming there aren't significant amounts of JNJ outstanding off the market, you are talking about at least $50B of new capital being deployed into the stock, either by a penny run up (although HFT guys stay away from large companies like JNJ, they are looking for the rebate from the exchange for providing liquidity) or by normal investors saying JNJ is worth marginally more than its current share price up to a $90 price target.

JNJ is a good core holding but as we discussed last year when you were buying leaps then, there isn't $50-90B of marginal liquidity that is going to be pumped into JNJ. Marginal liquidity likes to push things that can move. It is easier to push a LULU or a NFLX which are relatively small then it is to push a giant like JNJ. AAPL obviously the exception but it seems every second guy that files a 13f now has AAPL as a holding, so there is your liquidity argument.

We can also get into the whole option Greeks on why purchasing top of the vega smile leaps very rarely works. What you are doing is combining two completely different investing strategies. Value investing in JNJ and rampant speculation via extreme out of the money options.
 
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Sep 29, 2004
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Everything you say is true, but stocks ultimately move toward intrinsic value. It does not require $90 billion of investment to occur to move JNJ up $30/share. It takes the bid/ask to move up $30 and that does not require $90 billion. If that much new money were needed, penny stocks like PEDH that trade 450 shares a day for $1 would not cause it's market cap to change by $1 million on "new money" of $450. The math behind this "new money" just doesn't work.

JNJ will move no where until it all of a sudden moves. I've seen more than one stock do nothing and people don't buy even though valuation jsut gets better and better every year then all of a sudden it shoots up 100% in a single year. It's price follwoing value ... eventually. It is a matter of waiting for the markets to correct. Ya, it is a boring stock till it is no longer boring. Using "trading tactics" does nothing but line the pockets of the intermediary. Betas are good for one thing, telling you what happened in the past.

Value Investing takes valuation and understands that it can take years for a correction. JNJ LEAPS are in fact a gamble, but it is not rampant speculation. It is taking a positive outcome that can make very large returns 1 out of 5 times (probably better than this) and repeating till that positive outcome occurs. The gamble with JNJ 90s is that it could take 5 years for JNJ to correct when the LEAPS expire in 3. So the process needs to be repeated. In the end, I lost about 60% in my JNJ LEAPS or 1.5%-2% of my portfolio value. I am now going after the Jan 2013 85s for 20 cents. It's not if, it is when.

As for your 13F comment, more people hold JNJ than AAPL. In general, the larger the market cap the more 13Fs you see with that stock. 21 gurus at gurufocus hold AAPL while 32 hold JNJ.
 
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HopJokey

Platinum Member
May 6, 2005
2,110
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Let's take them 1 by 1.

Penny stocks are ILLIQUID. 450 shares may move the whole float for the day, go to my point on stock that is held away. Someone is going to trade the bid ask on a penny stock. This is an irrelevant comparison. There are 1000 to 10,000's of providers of liquidity in JNJ. You do need significant money to come into JNJ. JNJ has only 284M closely held shares of 2.746B. There is plenty of float to move, it is not a penny stock.

JNJ can't move 100% in a year, simply not enough liquidity. Even if the entire $90B that flowed into ETF's last year flowed directly to JNJ you aren't going to have a double.

If you are trying to leverage a position in JNJ there are better ways than moving out to the farthest edge of the vol smile.

13F comment. 2150 institutions hold JNJ, 63 hedge funds (BBG), 1948 institutions hold AAPL and 329 hedge funds. Both stocks huge marginal liquidity, AAPL is net flowing from institutions whereas JNJ has net institutional outflows. AAPL also is averaging 5M more shares a day moving, net, net AAPL a bit ahead.

I would say just go long on JNJ with a regular buy if you are bullish on it. Timing is a tough one to gauge even if JNJ is seriously undervalued (seems to be).
 

hofan41

Senior member
Jan 5, 2006
225
0
0
at $8/share profit, to make $10k, you would have to put in a capital of 20k. im hoping either you have a lot of money to burn, or you are already well diversified.

i took a huge gamble and put about 90% of my savings in rambus.

LOOTZ.png


now I am much more diversified.
 
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The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,117
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NFLX flash crashed after hours. Who trades these names after hours?

Post 190.15/191.11 next trade is 175.50/176.20 @ 4:07:23, another mini flash crash at 4:19:30.




Now trading 200.60/.80 @ 6:45, trading these high beta names after hours is just murder...
 
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