*** OFFICIAL 2011-2012 NBA Season Thread ***

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HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
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why? he still can't draw a play, and still can't beat a basic zone.

lebron with another choke tonight vs golden state. saw him biting his nails late in the 4th as the warriors mounted an improbable comeback. he disappeared with no wade to bail him out. he sucked it up on D too, as nate robinson of all players burned him for a layup. flashbacks of jason terry burning lebron?

I'm gonna assume you haven't watched a Heat game this year, and based on your recap of last night's game I'm gonna assume your analysis is based on the Sportscenter highlights.

More than anything, last night's game was a reflection of poor FT shooting. Anytime you miss 14 FTs and lose in overtime, that is the simplest and most direct thing to fix going forward.

In direct response to your critique, Lebron bites his nails in blowouts so that has nothing to do with choking. Wade was there to "bail him out" even though a 26-11-7 statline isn't exactly something in need of a bailout. Lebron was great on D as were the Heat, they held the Warriors to 40% shooting, 33% from 3, and got 30 fast break points out of their D.

If you had watched the game, you would see that much of the night Lebron was playing weakside as the Heat trapped the ball. The Warriors played up from the top of the key and on picks the Heat would aggressively trap the ball, sometimes before the screen was even set. The big man coming up to trap would rotate back to the paint to pick up the guy that rotated over from the paint to pick up the screener. Defensively this puts on huge ball pressure, especially given the short guards the Warriors have, and has the players nearby fully covered.

Of course, you can't trap the ball without leaving someone open right? Well that is where Lebron was most of the night. You could see him on the weakside near the painted area "guarding" the corner 3 man and the wing/elbow man. If the ball was tossed crosscourt to evade the trapping pressure his length and quickness would mean a steal. If the ball is rotated to the weakside he is again fast and long enough to recover, while an additional Heat defender races to the corner man.

It is a more aggressive variation of the defense the Lakers used when they won their recent two titles, and the defense the Celtics won in their title season. The Heat play it far more aggressively as they have guys who can recover much faster than those Lakers or Celtics teams. That is why the Heat are getting so many fast break points this year, and why they are shooting at such a high percentage. Their ball pressure turns into easy points in the paint.

If you need I can pull up some screen shots to show what I'm talking about, but simply watching the game this should all be pretty clear.

Edit: I'd also like to add that this hybrid man/zone defense that elite teams play was literally impossible to do back in the Jordan era. Morons who don't understand the game yet somehow have landed commentator or analyst status in print or TV keep talking about how Jordan did so much when hand checking was allowed and how he would kill in today's hand check free game.

Please.

Back then you couldn't leave your man for just about anything without it being considered an illegal defense. You could trap ball screens but you couldn't double a player until he got the ball. ISO a guy up, pull the rest of the team back, then toss him the ball. He has a second or two until the double arrives which is an eternity in basketball. Worse, the other guys can't rotate around to the free man until he has the ball. It was so stupid.

The Bulls had 4 elite defenders with length who could switch ball screens and still guard their man effectively. That was the key to the Bulls' championship run, their D. On offense they didn't have to worry about teams throwing any kind of defensive wrinkle at them, because they couldn't. Jordan as a great one-on-one player and the league didn't allow teams to do anything other than watch. The team defenses of today's game (if they are good) are much better than anything we saw in the 90s.
 
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randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
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I haven't had a chance to watch a single game this season. How are the Lakers doing? I can see game results but how are they really doing?
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
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I haven't had a chance to watch a single game this season. How are the Lakers doing? I can see game results but how are they really doing?

They are still slow on defense, but Mike Brown is trying to slow the game down to compensate some. They are treading water at around .500 but Kobe is dominating the ball like he did a few years back when they got bounced in the first round by the Suns. I don't expect him to be able to keep up the pace and the Lakers will start to fade when that happens. They need a roster mixup if they want to do anything. They lost Odom and only got a draft pick in return, that isn't good for an older team that needs to utilize depth.
 

zebano

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2005
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They are still slow on defense, but Mike Brown is trying to slow the game down to compensate some. They are treading water at around .500 but Kobe is dominating the ball like he did a few years back when they got bounced in the first round by the Suns. I don't expect him to be able to keep up the pace and the Lakers will start to fade when that happens. They need a roster mixup if they want to do anything. They lost Odom and only got a draft pick in return, that isn't good for an older team that needs to utilize depth.

Bynum is pretty damn good this year but doesn't get utilized enough.
 

XLNC

Senior member
Jan 18, 2008
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<snip>

Edit: I'd also like to add that this hybrid man/zone defense that elite teams play was literally impossible to do back in the Jordan era. Morons who don't understand the game yet somehow have landed commentator or analyst status in print or TV keep talking about how Jordan did so much when hand checking was allowed and how he would kill in today's hand check free game.

Please.

Back then you couldn't leave your man for just about anything without it being considered an illegal defense. You could trap ball screens but you couldn't double a player until he got the ball. ISO a guy up, pull the rest of the team back, then toss him the ball. He has a second or two until the double arrives which is an eternity in basketball. Worse, the other guys can't rotate around to the free man until he has the ball. It was so stupid.

The Bulls had 4 elite defenders with length who could switch ball screens and still guard their man effectively. That was the key to the Bulls' championship run, their D. On offense they didn't have to worry about teams throwing any kind of defensive wrinkle at them, because they couldn't. Jordan as a great one-on-one player and the league didn't allow teams to do anything other than watch. The team defenses of today's game (if they are good) are much better than anything we saw in the 90s.

I agree with this. Team defense has come a long ways since 1998, and individual defenders are more athletic than ever. Jordan was covered by Bryon Russell and Jeff Hornacek for much of the last two finals series he played. I think Kobe/Lebron would salivate at the thought of that. Defenders back then often hand checked because they lacked the athleticism to guard their man outright. (Ex: Pistons during Bad Boy era.)

That said, I have no doubt Jordan could still dominate in today's game, just not to the same extent. I think people view Jordan in an infallible light, and dismiss the accomplishments of today's players as a result of relaxed defenses.
 

al981

Golden Member
May 28, 2009
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I'm gonna assume you haven't watched a Heat game this year, and based on your recap of last night's game I'm gonna assume your analysis is based on the Sportscenter highlights.

i've watched most heat games this year, including this one, but i'm going to assume you were asleep/drunk/blind.

More than anything, last night's game was a reflection of poor FT shooting. Anytime you miss 14 FTs and lose in overtime, that is the simplest and most direct thing to fix going forward.

ah yes, the good ole "they played like shit down the stretch again, blame the free throws" copout.

In direct response to your critique, Lebron bites his nails in blowouts so that has nothing to do with choking. Wade was there to "bail him out" even though a 26-11-7 statline isn't exactly something in need of a bailout. Lebron was great on D as were the Heat, they held the Warriors to 40% shooting, 33% from 3, and got 30 fast break points out of their D.

If you had watched the game, you would see that much of the night Lebron was playing weakside as the Heat trapped the ball.
<irrelevant>

you are clearly in denial. i used to give lebron the benefit of the doubt. his hero ball long range 3's were falling in the chicago / boston series. since then he's "checked out" (thanks stephenson) and plays like fucking pussy come crunch time, which includes his "oh shit time to nailbite" trademark during timeouts.

his statline doesn't mean jack down the stretch. nate "no team wanted me to start the season" robinson drove right past him in the 4th for an easy layup, similar to terry consistently having his way with him 1on1 in the finals. i forgot to mention his choke turnover with a minute left in OT too.

as for offense:

link

"James also breathed some life into the old jokes (“Don’t ask LeBron to break a dollar, ‘cuz he’ll only give you three quarters”) by taking no shots in that final period. It was reminiscent of his deer-in-the-headlights moments late in The Finals last June. He went 0-for-0 in 6:34 in the fourth...

Playing against a defender in [Wright] that didn’t have the size to handle him in the post, James either never went there or was never instructed to go there."

zero shot blocking presence on the warriors, unless you count 2nd year udoh / kwame brown :biggrin: and james couldn't get a shot off down the stretch. good stuff.

<crying about zone, jordan era illegal defense, etc>

heat still haven't figured out how to beat it. one basic counter which they still haven't figured out: jones, aka best outside shooter in the game, needs to be immediately inserted to make the opposition pay. inexplicably absent in the finals series and down the stretch in this game as well.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,865
1,510
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Bynum is pretty damn good this year but doesn't get utilized enough.

That asshat shouldn't even be in the league...

Guess it will take a permanent injury to another player before he is booted for good...

He already has at least 3, count 'em 3, gutless plays where he intentionally takes down a player going to the rim...
 

al981

Golden Member
May 28, 2009
1,036
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blast from the past:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?sl...ron_james_dwyane_wade_nba_finals_game6_061111

"After Spain had made a frantic comeback within two points of the United States, there came a telling moment in a fourth-quarter timeout. All hell breaking loose in the gold-medal game, Team USA was finally getting a fight in the 2008 Beijing Olympics. And from coaches to players, they could see LeBron James&#8217;(notes) eyes darting everywhere, his teeth grinding his finger nails. He wasn&#8217;t present, but lost in the magnitude of the moment.

One source called him &#8220;completely disengaged,&#8221; and this wasn&#8217;t a minority sentiment. As it turned out, Dwyane Wade(notes) played an immense part in bailing out James in the game&#8217;s final eight minutes, securing a gold-medal victory and sparing Team USA a loss that would&#8217;ve resonated far beyond, far longer, than these Miami Heat losing to the Dallas Mavericks.

This doesn&#8217;t happen every time James faces pressure, but it&#8217;s happened in the Olympics, the 2010 Eastern Conference semifinals and it&#8217;s happened late in this NBA championship series.


Sometimes, James snaps out of it. Sometimes, he doesn&#8217;t. James doesn&#8217;t need more outside conflict, more distractions, and yet Wade dragged him into a beauty with the mocking video of them imitating Dirk Nowitzki coughing.
"
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,865
1,510
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Nice win by the Mavs on the second night of a back to back while Boston had 4 days of rest...
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
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ah yes, the good ole "they played like shit down the stretch again, blame the free throws" copout.

They lost a game in overtime. That means they were tied after regulation. Any game like that you can change *one* thing and the game is over. You could point to any number of things. The FTs are, as I said, the simplest thing to fix. If they made just one of those 14 misses they win the game.

Their defense was solid, regardless of whether or not you hate them. To give you a clear idea how wrong you are, they held the Warriors to 40% shooting from the field and 33% on threes. If they were to hold those averages they would have been first in the NBA in both categories last season. The problem wasn't defense.

On the flip side, they hit 65% of their FTs. If they were to post that average for the season, they would have finished dead last in the NBA last year.

So which is it? A defense that statistically was good enough to be qualified as best in the league or FT shooting that would have qualified to be worst in the league? Complaining about their defense is silly, it lacks any grounding in reality and displays a poor understanding of the sport.

his statline doesn't mean jack down the stretch. nate "no team wanted me to start the season" robinson drove right past him in the 4th for an easy layup, similar to terry consistently having his way with him 1on1 in the finals. i forgot to mention his choke turnover with a minute left in OT too.

So, putting up a 26-11-7 line doesn't mean anything if someone else makes a layup? Thankfully basketball games are scored according to your rules.

As far as your link evaluating the fourth quarter, the Heat went to the line 8 times in the quarter and missed 1 of 2 on 7 of those trips. It is easy to point to poor shooting, but that misses the fact that 8 possessions technically didn't have a shot because of Heat players getting to the line. Seven missed FTs in the quarter were enough to allow the Warriors to claw back in.

You want more analysis? Five turnovers in that quarter for the Heat (none by Lebron who was resting for the first 6 minutes). Two by Wade and two by Haslem. Three blocked shots that the Warriors picked up (they didn't fly out of bounds like a Dwight Howard block), all on shots by Haslem. Those show up in the box score as missed shots but they aren't exactly the same.

Again, out of all that it is the missed FTs that you won't likely see happen too often in the future. They don't miss the FTs (or just make one of the fourteen) and it is another Heat victory.
 

al981

Golden Member
May 28, 2009
1,036
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They lost a game in overtime. That means they were tied after regulation. Any game like that you can change *one* thing and the game is over. You could point to any number of things. The FTs are, as I said, the simplest thing to fix. If they made just one of those 14 misses they win the game.

haha another epic chokejob by lebron vs clippers tonight. even traveled and took 4-5 steps with 5 seconds remaining in regulation. luckily the refs bailed him out so he could miss more free throws. couldn't make a single shot in the post, not even 1on1 vs butler. skittish, toombs. veeeerrrry skittish. he did have one positive though, he was cutting.

mental midget bosh checked out down the stretch as well. :biggrin:

as for the golden state game: tied after regulation after blowing a 15 point lead in the 4th. again, up 15+ even with all the missed free throws. your freethrow copout is irrelevant.


So, putting up a 26-11-7 line doesn't mean anything if someone else makes a layup?

that's a nice line and all, but if you play like absolute dogshit in the 4th and OT, why would it matter?

yeah, haslem was getting blocked, turning it over, and missing 6 foot jumpers, but that's because lebron was deferring to him and others instead of taking it to the hole himself. haslem hasn't made a shot since 2009 LoL. obviously james still needs to work on that, as he couldn't make shit tonight either.

edit: another DNP for james jones. inexcusable.
 
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dbk

Lifer
Apr 23, 2004
17,685
10
81
Lebron bricked so many FTs... and fouled twice running into jump shooters.. COME ON!
 

masterxfob

Diamond Member
May 20, 2001
7,366
3
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epic fail by miami tonight. i wonder if the miami players get sick of hearing spoelstra preaching trust, because i certainly get tired of hearing it during timeouts.
 
May 13, 2009
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Heat still look like a collection of all stars again not a true team. Not sure what team takes them out this year but they are definitely vulnerable to a team like last years mavs that play team basketball.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
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71

Again missed FTs would have turned an L into a W. If they make 75% of their FTs they finish 2-0 instead of 0-2. Frustrating to be sure, but not the end of the world. It certainly isn't something opponents can either hope for or count on happening as the season progresses.

There are tons of traveling violations that never get called. The ones that bother me are when a player catches a pass, takes a step or two to come down, pivots and drags, then starts to take off with a dribble. You will see that 15 times a game and it never gets called.

Looking at that specific replay, the refs could have just as easily called a foul on Butler for bodying up Lebron while in "continuation" mode as they could have called a travel.
 
May 13, 2009
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Mavs getting on a roll. This year's team might be more talented and deeper than last years. Yes I said it.

Lost Barea, Chandler, Stevenson.
Delonte West has Definitely softened the blow of losing Stevenson and Barea. While he isn't the offensive threat like Barea he does have some of that and some of Stevenson's defensive presence. He isn't the defensive liability that Barea was either.
Vince Carter is light years ahead of Stevenson in terms of offense.
If you asked me if I'd rather have West/Carter or Barea/Stevenson I'd honestly say West/Carter.

Now as far as Chandler goes that's where we took a step back. I will say that Haywood/Mahinmi have made a legit center combo. Mahinmi has really stepped up his game this year and he is an offensive threat.
While the mavs took a step back in Chandler leaving I'd say West/Carter is a better 1/2 than Barea/Stevenson. Add in the fact that the Mavs have added Odom to the mix I'll say that this team is deeper and more talented than last years team. That doesn't mean anything as far as repeating goes. Miami is without a doubt the most talented team in the Nba just like they were last year but as we seen last year that really doesnt mean a whole lot. It's really going to come down to how bad teams want it, if they can handle the pressure of the moment, can they handle the ups and downs of a series. That has yet to be determined of this years Mavs team.
 
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May 13, 2009
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Uh oh.. Dirk told reporters he's having trouble bending his knees..

Hope this isn't the beginning of the end of the legend that is Nowitzki. :(
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
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Westbrook gets a max contract? Wow. I'd say Westbrook is a slightly above mid level guy.

He has a high ceiling for sure, but I don't see him ever coming close to hitting it. His attitude and style of play don't give me confidence that he is working to maximize his abilities. They should be looking to flip him for a real PG, something the Thunder are in desperate need of.
 

al981

Golden Member
May 28, 2009
1,036
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Again missed FTs would have turned an L into a W. If they make 75% of their FTs they finish 2-0 instead of 0-2. Frustrating to be sure, but not the end of the world. It certainly isn't something opponents can either hope for or count on happening as the season progresses.

There are tons of traveling violations that never get called. The ones that bother me are when a player catches a pass, takes a step or two to come down, pivots and drags, then starts to take off with a dribble. You will see that 15 times a game and it never gets called.

Looking at that specific replay, the refs could have just as easily called a foul on Butler for bodying up Lebron while in "continuation" mode as they could have called a travel.

another game, another free throw copout. you still don't have the courage to admit he melts down in close 4th/OT games. butler hardly touched lebron on the 6+ step travel btw :D