Odometer fraud

[JulesMaximus]

So, a friend of mine has been looking to buy a used Ducati Multistrada. Specifically, he is looking for a 2007-2009 Multistrada 1100 S model with low mileage. He has been looking for a few weeks now and has cash in hand to purchase. A couple weeks ago I drove him up to Cypress to look at a red one and a black one. The black one had luggage which made it quite desireable but the BMW dealership it was at sold it right before we arrived. Sucks too because he wants the luggage and you cannot buy it from Ducati anymore.

Every other bike he has seen or called on since then has had some sort of fraudulent history. The red one we saw that day had a number of things that just didn't add up. The guy selling this one was supposedly the second owner and it supposedly had only 3500 miles on it but both the front and rear tires were completely worn out and the rear tire was not the original tire. The tank also had been replaced but the new tank was not coated and was showing blisters and warping. There was also a strange discoloration on the valve cover on the forward cylinder. It also had aftermarket grips on it that were completely worn. The guy also changed his story on why he was selling it. He told my friend he wanted to buy a BMW GS to do some adventure riding on the phone originally and then when we were looking at it he said he needed the money to put a new roof on his house. So we walked away from that deal. I wish we could have taken the VIN on that bike to see if the rest of this guy's story added up... I suspect it would not.

The next bike we were going to look at was up in Ventura which is a good 2.5 hour drive from here. Fortunately, the guy gave my friend the VIN number and he did a VIN check and our local Ducati dealer found that the tank had been replaced under warranty in 2009 but the real surprise was when he did a VIN check online and found the bike had 4 previous owners and had been registered in New Mexico and the last time it changed title it had over 44,000 miles on the odometer yet the guy selling this bike said he was the second owner and that it was a CA bike with only around 8,000 miles on it. The engine had also been replaced according to the VIN check service. The bike was also a demo model originally. Saved us a 5 hour trip.

He found another bike up in Los Angeles, this one at a Ducati dealership with supposedly 1,900 miles on it. Running the VIN we found that 3 years ago when it last changed title it had over 7,000 miles on it. He is going to call the dealership on Tuesday and do some inquiring as to why there is a disparity between their ad and the VIN history.

There is another bike up in Irvine that we are going to see later today, a 2007 with fairly low mileage that checks out with the history of the VIN. I think this might be the bike he finally buys but it is really amazing the amount of fraud that goes on with the used motorcycle market. I would definitely recommend using one of these services and checking the VIN out on any motorcycle you are looking to buy used even if it is being sold at a dealership.

 

[_Rick_]

I'm pretty sure it's the same in the car market, especially when buying from medium sized used car lots.
Of course, as in your case, it's usually pretty easy to tell how often a vehicle has been around the block, just by looking at the state of the "consumables".
With a reasonably modern car, miles don't matter much, if belts, tires, compression, battery charge, etc all look good.

 

[Kaido]

Reminds me of the motorcycle thief AMA:

http://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/comments/t5shp/ex_thief_chopshop_operator_ama/

Fascinating reading. The amount of fraud is just unbelievable.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Well, he ended up buying the bike we saw today. Guy selling it works for Honda Motorcycle, he designed the Goldwing. Really nice guy, the bike my friend bought was first purchased by Honda (the original registration was to Honda Motor Corp) and he bought it from them. The VIN check confirmed that the bike has changed owners twice and that the first time it only had about 4,400 miles on it. It has about 7,200 miles on it currently, has a new rear tire and the front is original and will probably need to be replaced soon which coincides with the mileage on the bike. His wife and kids came out to say goodbye to the Ducati. Nice Japanese family. Really a pleasure to meet them.

He had some cool motorcycles in his garage actually including a CBX, two CB750s, a CB350 and a 1966 Honda motorcycle that was original but I'm not entirely sure what it was. One of the CB750s was fairly original as was the CB350.

 

[halik]

So, a friend of mine has been looking to buy a used Ducati Multistrada. Specifically, he is looking for a 2007-2009 Multistrada 1100 S model with low mileage. He has been looking for a few weeks now and has cash in hand to purchase. A couple weeks ago I drove him up to Cypress to look at a red one and a black one. The black one had luggage which made it quite desireable but the BMW dealership it was at sold it right before we arrived. Sucks too because he wants the luggage and you cannot buy it from Ducati anymore.

Every other bike he has seen or called on since then has had some sort of fraudulent history. The red one we saw that day had a number of things that just didn't add up. The guy selling this one was supposedly the second owner and it supposedly had only 3500 miles on it but both the front and rear tires were completely worn out and the rear tire was not the original tire. The tank also had been replaced but the new tank was not coated and was showing blisters and warping. There was also a strange discoloration on the valve cover on the forward cylinder. It also had aftermarket grips on it that were completely worn. The guy also changed his story on why he was selling it. He told my friend he wanted to buy a BMW GS to do some adventure riding on the phone originally and then when we were looking at it he said he needed the money to put a new roof on his house. So we walked away from that deal. I wish we could have taken the VIN on that bike to see if the rest of this guy's story added up... I suspect it would not.

The next bike we were going to look at was up in Ventura which is a good 2.5 hour drive from here. Fortunately, the guy gave my friend the VIN number and he did a VIN check and our local Ducati dealer found that the tank had been replaced under warranty in 2009 but the real surprise was when he did a VIN check online and found the bike had 4 previous owners and had been registered in New Mexico and the last time it changed title it had over 44,000 miles on the odometer yet the guy selling this bike said he was the second owner and that it was a CA bike with only around 8,000 miles on it. The engine had also been replaced according to the VIN check service. The bike was also a demo model originally. Saved us a 5 hour trip.

He found another bike up in Los Angeles, this one at a Ducati dealership with supposedly 1,900 miles on it. Running the VIN we found that 3 years ago when it last changed title it had over 7,000 miles on it. He is going to call the dealership on Tuesday and do some inquiring as to why there is a disparity between their ad and the VIN history.

There is another bike up in Irvine that we are going to see later today, a 2007 with fairly low mileage that checks out with the history of the VIN. I think this might be the bike he finally buys but it is really amazing the amount of fraud that goes on with the used motorcycle market. I would definitely recommend using one of these services and checking the VIN out on any motorcycle you are looking to buy used even if it is being sold at a dealership.

Where do you run the vin just out of curiosity? I'm gonna have to have my 916 checked.

 

[Jimzz]

I'm pretty sure it's the same in the car market, especially when buying from medium sized used car lots.
Of course, as in your case, it's usually pretty easy to tell how often a vehicle has been around the block, just by looking at the state of the "consumables".
With a reasonably modern car, miles don't matter much, if belts, tires, compression, battery charge, etc all look good.

Cars are much harder to change the miles now, esp the digital ones. Doable but still harder.

That and a simple autocheck/carfax or even DMV check will show mileage in most states since State inceptions record the mileage.

Many bikes use the older style odometer so you can just roll them easily and not as many ways to check.

 

[roguerower]

I had to swap out the panel on my GS500 after I laid it down. Bought a used assembly which had a different number of miles than what the bike really had. I just made sure when I sold the bike that the owner was aware of the issue and took a photo of the two assemblies next to each other as documentation.

 

[kitatech]

With 17" wheels/tires replacing OEM-15s since 114k miles, Kitacamry's odometer now reads 2% low...not much, but if I were selling it I'd point out to buyers.

 

[Yuriman]

I replaced the cluster in my 90's Honda (friend killed the original one by putting the battery cables on backward). Before putting the new one in, I opened it up and turned the odometer to the same miles as my old one. Took about 90 seconds.

 

[_Rick_]

Cars are much harder to change the miles now, esp the digital ones. Doable but still harder.

As far as I know you can get programmers on ebay for a few bucks, that should work with most cars.
The individual probably won't bother, but if you're reselling cars commercially, then setting "vanity miles" is a quick way to jack up prices or get people onto your lot.
But yes, a check of the papers usually reveals that something is amiss.

 

[silicon]

So, a friend of mine has been looking to buy a used Ducati Multistrada. Specifically, he is looking for a 2007-2009 Multistrada 1100 S model with low mileage. He has been looking for a few weeks now and has cash in hand to purchase. A couple weeks ago I drove him up to Cypress to look at a red one and a black one. The black one had luggage which made it quite desireable but the BMW dealership it was at sold it right before we arrived. Sucks too because he wants the luggage and you cannot buy it from Ducati anymore.

Every other bike he has seen or called on since then has had some sort of fraudulent history. The red one we saw that day had a number of things that just didn't add up. The guy selling this one was supposedly the second owner and it supposedly had only 3500 miles on it but both the front and rear tires were completely worn out and the rear tire was not the original tire. The tank also had been replaced but the new tank was not coated and was showing blisters and warping. There was also a strange discoloration on the valve cover on the forward cylinder. It also had aftermarket grips on it that were completely worn. The guy also changed his story on why he was selling it. He told my friend he wanted to buy a BMW GS to do some adventure riding on the phone originally and then when we were looking at it he said he needed the money to put a new roof on his house. So we walked away from that deal. I wish we could have taken the VIN on that bike to see if the rest of this guy's story added up... I suspect it would not.

The next bike we were going to look at was up in Ventura which is a good 2.5 hour drive from here. Fortunately, the guy gave my friend the VIN number and he did a VIN check and our local Ducati dealer found that the tank had been replaced under warranty in 2009 but the real surprise was when he did a VIN check online and found the bike had 4 previous owners and had been registered in New Mexico and the last time it changed title it had over 44,000 miles on the odometer yet the guy selling this bike said he was the second owner and that it was a CA bike with only around 8,000 miles on it. The engine had also been replaced according to the VIN check service. The bike was also a demo model originally. Saved us a 5 hour trip.

He found another bike up in Los Angeles, this one at a Ducati dealership with supposedly 1,900 miles on it. Running the VIN we found that 3 years ago when it last changed title it had over 7,000 miles on it. He is going to call the dealership on Tuesday and do some inquiring as to why there is a disparity between their ad and the VIN history.

There is another bike up in Irvine that we are going to see later today, a 2007 with fairly low mileage that checks out with the history of the VIN. I think this might be the bike he finally buys but it is really amazing the amount of fraud that goes on with the used motorcycle market. I would definitely recommend using one of these services and checking the VIN out on any motorcycle you are looking to buy used even if it is being sold at a dealership.

yes there is a lot of fraud and dishonest people selling cars, motorcycles or whatever and its not right. But how to police them all is the question. They pop up everywhere and try to sell old used motorcycles to unsuspecting buyers.

 

[smackababy]

As far as I know you can get programmers on ebay for a few bucks, that should work with most cars.
The individual probably won't bother, but if you're reselling cars commercially, then setting "vanity miles" is a quick way to jack up prices or get people onto your lot.
But yes, a check of the papers usually reveals that something is amiss.

If only Ferris Bueller knew about this!


Seriously though, I would think a legit dealership with one of these could easily be reported.

 

[boomerang]

As far as I know you can get programmers on ebay for a few bucks, that should work with most cars.
The individual probably won't bother, but if you're reselling cars commercially, then setting "vanity miles" is a quick way to jack up prices or get people onto your lot.
But yes, a check of the papers usually reveals that something is amiss.

OnStar phones home once a month (for certain, maybe more often) with mileage and other information. I think you'd have to know the right people and have them in your pocket to fudge with that data.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

Well, he ended up buying the bike we saw today. .

Your friend is getting a great bike and a cool story to boot. I've ridden one at a local sport touring.net meetup and think they are a great way to click off the miles.

As for all the scammers.....well they can go suck it. Services like carfax must be making it difficult for them to find idiots.

 

[BUTCH1]

Cars are much harder to change the miles now, esp the digital ones. Doable but still harder.

That and a simple autocheck/carfax or even DMV check will show mileage in most states since State inceptions record the mileage.

Many bikes use the older style odometer so you can just roll them easily and not as many ways to check.

Yea. I remember 60 minutes doing a special segment called "busting miles", years ago, these folk would travel to small used car lot's and offer to "bust 30-40K off the ODO for a flat rate fee, IDK if it's that easy anymore, when my instrument cluster went out (under warranty) the dealer had a special code he called up for that car (GM sent it) so he could start my new cluster at the correct mileage.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Where do you run the vin just out of curiosity? I'm gonna have to have my 916 checked.

He used a service called InstaVIN. They charge per VIN report but it's only a few bucks.