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Ocasio-Cortez Wants to Spend $40T on Progressive Programs. Free Health Care for All?

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Feb 4, 2009
31,389
11,789
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Name any country that has taken on something that is typically taken by a capitalist business and show me where they have done an overall more efficient job than for profit capitalistic competing companies.

Do you understand shit like the fact that for profit companies do things like... pick up your trash and take care of it? It's because if the government tried to do it themselves they would fail. Epically.

Venezuela is the picture perfect example as a successful oil corporation is taken control of by the government. What happens next? Oh boy stay tuned, you will never guess!
Ummm the US literally has the most expense healthcare system in the world by a large margin.
A better question is where in the world does the US system work
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
73,390
25,174
136
This entire thread is retarded because it does not account for what we currently spend.

Come on people, how dumb are you!
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
23,245
5,785
136
The amount of concern for any one of Ocasio-Cortez's policy proposals is astounding. She's a first-time house rep who hasn't even started her first term. She chairs zero committees. She whips zero votes. She represents a fringe wing of the Democratic party that until recently had no real track record of voter support or electoral success.

I almost get the sense that certain conservatives are desperate to find the next Hillary Clinton. Pelosi bashing and Feinstein bashing can only go so far, so they've latched onto AOC and are caricaturing her as the "young dumb socialist" to foment hate. Let's see how that works out.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
14,300
9,919
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Based on my research, I'm not aware of any country (Canada being an example) that doesn't have a massive "2nd Coverage" market - because the bare coverage is comparitaively dog shit with insane wait times.

Feel free to correct me if wrong there - i can't speak behalf on a country I haven't lived in. The basic message was that if you're in the middle to upper class (basically anyone on AT), just about everyone had 2nd coverage.

So to the point of budget replacing other coverages, how do you defend that against everyone needing 2nd coverage?
IIRC "2nd coverage" as you call it is supplemental insurance for things the government system doesn't cover. Exactly the same as having supplemental insurance as a retiree to cover whatever Medicare does not. Those kinds of plans generally cost like $100 a month, depending on what you want covered. I doubt many young healthy people buy it. In Canada, I don't think the government system covers, for example, at home care.

My issue with the current MFA proposal is that it's replacing $33 trillion a year in healthcare costs with $32 trillion in government insurance and, to that, I'm sure more will be added for the supplemental insurance. Yet in Canada, they pay half of what we do, meaning this isn't a problem with the idea of it. It sounds more like a problem with the specific way they structured it. But this is campaign policy, not real policy. In reality, we're not going to implement any UHC program with that price tag.

So I would agree the program cost is too high in its present form. But that is no excuse for ignoring the other half of the equation and just quoting the cost of the program. The media, BTW, has aided and abetted this. Over and over again they quote the Koch Brothers think tank's "$32 trillion" sticker shock number with no added analysis. The "liberal media" is helping to kill the idea before it even gets started.
 
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Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
8,468
5,651
136
The amount of concern for any one of Ocasio-Cortez's policy proposals is astounding. She's a first-time house rep who hasn't even started her first term. She chairs zero committees. She whips zero votes. She represents a fringe wing of the Democratic party that until recently had no real track record of voter support or electoral success.

I almost get the sense that certain conservatives are desperate to find the next Hillary Clinton. Pelosi bashing and Feinstein bashing can only go so far, so they've latched onto AOC and are caricaturing her as the "young dumb socialist" to foment hate. Let's see how that works out.
You do get the impression that the Republicans are running out of distractions and trying to find anything to draw attention away from Trump's corruption and incompetence. And of course, the further away a Democrat is from a white male, the more the Republicans will demonize that person. There's nothing scarier in the world to the modern GOP than a non-white woman with solidly liberal ideas.
 
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Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,710
3,864
136
Name any country that has taken on something that is typically taken by a capitalist business and show me where they have done an overall more efficient job than for profit capitalistic competing companies.

Do you understand shit like the fact that for profit companies do things like... pick up your trash and take care of it? It's because if the government tried to do it themselves they would fail. Epically.

Venezuela is the picture perfect example as a successful oil corporation is taken control of by the government. What happens next? Oh boy stay tuned, you will never guess!
Here's a good place to start.

Where's this "massive secondary market"? Unless you mean Canada spends 3% on private market, +50% on top of public spending, but that still only adds up to 10% of gdp total.

 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
21,211
13,415
136
Name any country that has taken on something that is typically taken by a capitalist business and show me where they have done an overall more efficient job than for profit capitalistic competing companies.

Do you understand shit like the fact that for profit companies do things like... pick up your trash and take care of it? It's because if the government tried to do it themselves they would fail. Epically.

Venezuela is the picture perfect example as a successful oil corporation is taken control of by the government. What happens next? Oh boy stay tuned, you will never guess!
Every single first world country with a national health care system. Seriously they spend less and have better health outcomes and longer life expectancy.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
14,300
9,919
136
Every single first world country with a national health care system. Seriously they spend less and have better health outcomes and longer life expectancy.
Probably more like equal outcomes. In Europe, I think lifespans are about 1.5-2 years longer, but that is mostly down to higher obesity rates here, and the fact that we have so many uninsured. Actual quality of care for those who have it is about the same.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,778
4,751
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Every single first world country with a national health care system. Seriously they spend less and have better health outcomes and longer life expectancy.
Correlation does not equal causation.

What does medical care have to do with how many twinkies go into your mouth?
 

Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,710
3,864
136
Step one is to not overcomplicate the idea when selling. Piggy back on something popular that people at least somewhat can wrap their heads around:



https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/28/most-americans-now-support-medicare-for-all-and-free-college-tuition.html

I watched the video in the OP.

She didn't give a solid answer. She mentioned $2T in new taxes, Jake asks "what about the other $38T?" and she responds with an anecdote.

The logic was buried in there somewhere, but its not informing anyone but those who already know the policy details. Ie. P&N type crowd.


Needs to get boiled down to something simple even conservatives might understand.

"We pay for a Ferrari and get a jalopy. Stop the insanity and trade in for a Honda."

Jake: "yeah, but how do we pay for the Honda, huh?"

AOC: "Jake, get rid of the moneypit Ferrari. It's gone. Pocket's full of cash. Buy a Honda or Toyota, it's impossible to get something worse than what we have now."
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
14,300
9,919
136
Correlation does not equal causation.

What does medical care have to do with how many twinkies go into your mouth?
I think you misunderstood my comment. Pretty sure we agree on this one. We have higher obesity rates here, which is partly why we have shorter lifespans. Doesn't mean the quality of care is lower here.

Then again, it doesn't appear to be any better either, unless you're quite wealthy, in which case, we have the best docs in the world, many of whom do not even take insurance.
 
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Nov 8, 2012
20,778
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I think you misunderstood my comment. Pretty sure we agree on this one. We have higher obesity rates here, which is partly why we have shorter lifespans. Doesn't mean the quality of care is lower here. It doesn't appear to be any better either, unless you're quite wealthy, in which case, we have the best docs in the world, many of whom do not even take insurance.
Yes, apologies - corrected my quote.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,700
9,904
136
Nah man, business owners are a never ending fountain of funds. I completely trust the government to redistribute their wealth and they’ll be no consequences other than the rich just can’t buy that tenth vehicle.
How much are businesses paying right now for their employees' health care plans?
That $40 trillion figure is over 10 years, or $4 trillion/year. We already pay half a trillion every under the current Medicare budget.
Are the current total health care costs in the US, including the health insurance premiums for private and employer plans, less than $3.5 trillion/year?
Universal health care from the federal govt wouldn't be my first choice, but let's use honest numbers please.
 
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Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,710
3,864
136
Nah man, business owners are a never ending fountain of funds. I completely trust the government to redistribute their wealth and they’ll be no consequences other than the rich just can’t buy that tenth vehicle.
So your plan is to do nothing, keep the shitty, corrupt system we got.

Her plan is for you to hold out all the money you spend on healthcare in your hand, take half, and put it back in your wallet.
And btw, you won't have to sell your house and eat cat food if you get fucking cancer.

I'm going with her plan.
 
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soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
16,428
4,097
136
I curious as how some are worried about a proposal made by someone with no power to implement it, she’s not dictator of the US last time I checked.
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,355
126
I curious as how some are worried about a proposal made by someone with no power to implement it, she’s not dictator of the US last time I checked.

The worry isn’t over Ocasio herself but the growing movement she represents. The worry is the federal government massively growing beyond anything it was ever meant to become. The worry is that such a system could bankrupt the nation. And the worry is that it’s being represented by somewho who flashes white supremacist signs

 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
62,345
14,566
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The worry isn’t over Ocasio herself but the growing movement she represents. The worry is the federal government massively growing beyond anything it was ever meant to become. The worry is that such a system could bankrupt the nation. And the worry is that it’s being represented by somewho who flashes white supremacist signs

Bankrupt the nation? You mean like the recent round of GOP tax cuts for the Rich?
 
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Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,710
3,864
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Her bullshit rambling is what turns a country into a 3rd world shithole.
You think Europe and Canada are 3rd world shitholes?

Here's how hard this is.
1. Pick your favorite European country (Russia doesn't count Trumpos)
2. Copy their system
3. Save half your money

Still too hard? Too many favorites?

1. Get a map of Europe
2. throw a dart
3. copy the system of whomever it hits
4. Save half your money

Still too hard? Darts are pointy and dangerous?

1. Just copy the Germans. They make BMWs and other fine engineering. Surely they figured it out.
2. Save half your money
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,700
9,904
136
I curious as how some are worried about a proposal made by someone with no power to implement it, she’s not dictator of the US last time I checked.
If you look closely, you'll see that the most common theme on the right wing is a terrible fear of the powerless. The poor, homeless, refugees, illegal immigrants, etc. All of those desperate powerless people are, they would have you believe, a greater threat than the powerful people who made them that way. It's slave mentality really.. wouldn't want shit to roll uphill, right?

Anyway, more on topic, their fear of AOC is about the disturbance in the force (to use a pop culture reference, if you will) that their extremism has created. The force might not be real, but balance is a necessity, everything in the universe seeks its equilibrium. So of course, it is only natural that the rise of right wing nationalism will give birth to its left wing counterpart. And yeah, the right is (albeit unconsciously) very worried about that.
 
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UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,355
126
You think Europe and Canada are 3rd world shitholes?

Here's how hard this is.
1. Pick your favorite European country (Russia doesn't count Trumpos)
2. Copy their system
3. Save half your money

Still too hard? Too many favorites?

1. Get a map of Europe
2. throw a dart
3. copy the system of whomever it hits
4. Save half your money

Still too hard? Darts are pointy and dangerous?

1. Just copy the Germans. They make BMWs and other fine engineering. Surely they figured it out.
2. Save half your money

5. Change American culture. We eat nothing but fatty foods, drive everywhere, don’t exercise, and sit on our ass watching TV all day. Then and only then do you save money.
 

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