Objects can change the way humans feel, act, and interact

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
24,810
22,950
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Why do conservatives not understand this simple concept of reality?

They keep saying that duh - guns don't kill people, people kill people. Duh. Nobody is saying that a person is not ultimately responsible for pulling the trigger. But objects do change the way we feel emotionally, how we act, and ultimately interact with our environment in various situations. This is true with objects of all kinds, from cars to slim-fit suits, from dinnerware to a floor vase.

What is so hard to understand about this?
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,019
16,154
136
Why do conservatives not understand this simple concept of reality?

They keep saying that duh - guns don't kill people, people kill people. Duh. Nobody is saying that a person is not ultimately responsible for pulling the trigger. But objects do change the way we feel emotionally, how we act, and ultimately interact with our environment in various situations. This is true with objects of all kinds, from cars to slim-fit suits, from dinnerware to a floor vase.

What is so hard to understand about this?

Human nature isn't a strong suit of conservative thinking. They incorrectly predict human behavior almost every time.

Pick a subject and I can show you how their expectations of how people will respond to their policies is wrong.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
24,773
14,208
136
It is pretty simple yes. Take suicide by pills. If you enforce pill bottles so that they would need an additional 3 twists before the cap comes off, the number of suicides by pill overdose would go down... for the sheer reason that in three twists some of these ppl will have a change of heart... Pill bottles/guns whats really the difference? (preemptive; I am being willfully daft here, while still maintaining a point).
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,570
10,200
126
It is pretty simple yes. Take suicide by pills. If you enforce pill bottles so that they would need an additional 3 twists before the cap comes off, the number of suicides by pill overdose would go down... for the sheer reason that in three twists some of these ppl will have a change of heart...
That's a really interesting idea.Have you suggested it to mfgs?
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
24,773
14,208
136
That's a really interesting idea.Have you suggested it to mfgs?
It is allready employed in the wild(for a few years now). For regular OC pain medication in europe the maximum number of pills pr package i limited to n amount and the maximum number of packages allowed per day is one. Now nothing prohibits you from visiting another store and get another package .. and another.. Or still order a huge bottle online.. But the sheer hazzle of doing so, planning your own suicide like this has the number of cases dropped by ~30%. Sucide is an impulsive action, remove the impulsive and ....
 
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boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
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Human nature isn't a strong suit of conservative thinking. They incorrectly predict human behavior almost every time.
So the polls showing Hillary with the huge runaway lead prior to the 2016 election were run by conservatives...

This place is a treasure trove of knowledge.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
14,248
9,093
136
So the polls showing Hillary with the huge runaway lead prior to the 2016 election were run by conservatives...

This place is a treasure trove of knowledge.

You never studied logic, I assume?

"conservatives incorrectly predict human behaviour" is not equivalent to "everyone who fails to predict behaviour is a conservative".

All A is B does not imply All B is A.

(Anyway, the pollsters probably were conservatives, because almost everyone in America is a conservative, including Hillary).
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,752
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You never studied logic, I assume?

"conservatives incorrectly predict human behaviour" is not equivalent to "everyone who fails to predict behaviour is a conservative".

All A is B does not imply All B is A.

(Anyway, the pollsters probably were conservatives, because almost everyone in America is a conservative, including Hillary).
But boomerang does continue to provide evidence that conservatives lack reason.
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
24,773
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You never studied logic, I assume?

"conservatives incorrectly predict human behaviour" is not equivalent to "everyone who fails to predict behaviour is a conservative".

All A is B does not imply All B is A.

(Anyway, the pollsters probably were conservatives, because almost everyone in America is a conservative, including Hillary).
It is exactly these basic reasoning skills that makes some of these arguments an uphill battle.. 404 deduction not found.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,463
5,940
136
Why do conservatives not understand this simple concept of reality?

They keep saying that duh - guns don't kill people, people kill people. Duh. Nobody is saying that a person is not ultimately responsible for pulling the trigger. But objects do change the way we feel emotionally, how we act, and ultimately interact with our environment in various situations. This is true with objects of all kinds, from cars to slim-fit suits, from dinnerware to a floor vase.

What is so hard to understand about this?
It's very easy to understand.
What I don't understand is why you think conservatives don't know that, and why you feel the need to discuss this shortcoming. Could it simply be a way of jumping on the bandwagon and receiving positive feedback from others to reinforce your self image? Do you need the affirmation of others to feel good about yourself? Or do you simply enjoy feeling superior and need someone to denigrate to maintain that feeling?
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
24,810
22,950
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It's very easy to understand.
What I don't understand is why you think conservatives don't know that, and why you feel the need to discuss this shortcoming. Could it simply be a way of jumping on the bandwagon and receiving positive feedback from others to reinforce your self image? Do you need the affirmation of others to feel good about yourself? Or do you simply enjoy feeling superior and need someone to denigrate to maintain that feeling?

I'm seeing numerous posts from conservatives on my FB from people I've had discussions with, that reiterate the same arguments. It's only people that do things, things have no impact on humans - in relation to guns. So just came here to this board I frequent to get some explanation that could give me better insight as to how to explain such a basic concept to them better perhaps.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,463
5,940
136
I'm seeing numerous posts from conservatives on my FB from people I've had discussions with, that reiterate the same arguments. It's only people that do things, things have no impact on humans - in relation to guns. So just came here to this board I frequent to get some explanation that could give me better insight as to how to explain such a basic concept to them better perhaps.
The reality is that it is people that decide to do things. Yes, some halfwit can buy a gun and feel like he's 7' tall. But the decision to pull the trigger is his alone. The gun didn't make him do it. The same holds true for guys that buy a 600 HP car and think every road is a race track, or every biker that buys a 200 MPH super bike and thinks he has the ability to ride it. What the object does is makes them feel empowered, but the finial decision to pull the trigger, step on the gas, or crack the throttle is theirs alone. It isn't a conservative or liberal thing, it's a stupid thing.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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The reality is that it is people that decide to do things. Yes, some halfwit can buy a gun and feel like he's 7' tall. But the decision to pull the trigger is his alone. The gun didn't make him do it. The same holds true for guys that buy a 600 HP car and think every road is a race track, or every biker that buys a 200 MPH super bike and thinks he has the ability to ride it. What the object does is makes them feel empowered, but the finial decision to pull the trigger, step on the gas, or crack the throttle is theirs alone. It isn't a conservative or liberal thing, it's a stupid thing.

Empowered is a good word. If I felt empowered to do something, I'd all of a sudden be considering doing something I otherwise wouldn't have. Guns can change the way of thinking inside a human mind.

It's something as simple as a very nice new slim-fit suit. Sporting one to an important event or job interview could give someone the confidence to do things they may not have done as well without it. Empowered. To maybe approach that girl or ace the interview. Or a shiny new car giving someone the balls to approach that girl at school, etc... Objects empower us. Sometimes for good sometimes for bad.

Consumer based capitalism is based upon just that, you can alter human behavior and emotion visa ve objects. There are various ways to do this.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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The reality is that it is people that decide to do things. Yes, some halfwit can buy a gun and feel like he's 7' tall. But the decision to pull the trigger is his alone. The gun didn't make him do it. The same holds true for guys that buy a 600 HP car and think every road is a race track, or every biker that buys a 200 MPH super bike and thinks he has the ability to ride it. What the object does is makes them feel empowered, but the finial decision to pull the trigger, step on the gas, or crack the throttle is theirs alone. It isn't a conservative or liberal thing, it's a stupid thing.

Perhaps dildoes should be banned. Someone might look at one and become a dick.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
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Perhaps dildoes should be banned. Someone might look at one and become a dick.

Or more accurately, they become so inwardly jealous of what it represents that they turn into an "incel". I just learned that term yesterday. I had to work it into a sentence today!
 
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Hayabusa Rider

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Or more accurately, they become so inwardly jealous of what it represents that they turn into an "incel". I just learned that term yesterday. I had to work it into a sentence today!

Me too. I also found out that reddit was responsible.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,254
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The reality is that it is people that decide to do things. Yes, some halfwit can buy a gun and feel like he's 7' tall. But the decision to pull the trigger is his alone. The gun didn't make him do it. The same holds true for guys that buy a 600 HP car and think every road is a race track, or every biker that buys a 200 MPH super bike and thinks he has the ability to ride it. What the object does is makes them feel empowered, but the finial decision to pull the trigger, step on the gas, or crack the throttle is theirs alone. It isn't a conservative or liberal thing, it's a stupid thing.
It makes them feel empowered and gives them a tool that enables them. The combination adds up to allow them to do bad things. Sort of like "Should I follow around this teenager that could beat my ass" guy without gun says nah, guy with gun does, gets in a fight and kills a teenager walking home.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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It makes them feel empowered and gives them a tool that enables them. The combination adds up to allow them to do bad things. Sort of like "Should I follow around this teenager that could beat my ass" guy without gun says nah, guy with gun does, gets in a fight and kills a teenager walking home.

Would you like to know how that plays out in the real world? I want to get that guy. I have a gun. OK.

Or

I want to get that guy. I have a knife. OK.

Or

I want to get that guy. I have a heavy piece of pipe. OK

And that's how the real world works, the one I grew up in and I have a hashtag shaped scar on my right hand as a consequence of that reality.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,254
136
Would you like to know how that plays out in the real world? I want to get that guy. I have a gun. OK.

Or

I want to get that guy. I have a knife. OK.

Or

I want to get that guy. I have a heavy piece of pipe. OK

And that's how the real world works, the one I grew up in and I have a hashtag shaped scar on my right hand as a consequence of that reality.
Yeah, because a pipe empowers people the same way guns do :rolleyes: Yeah you can beat the crap out of someone with a pipe, but when was the last time someone killed a whole group of strangers with a pipe?

Regardless, you are basically agreeing my point, give someone a tool that empowers and enables them and likelihood of them doing it goes way up. The problem is guns make people feel much more empowered and gives them much more killing power, than any other commonly available weapon.

BTW: You have a scar on your hand from a non-gun, as opposed to a 12 square-foot plot of land with your rotting corpse in it.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
24,810
22,950
136
Yeah, because a pipe empowers people the same way guns do :rolleyes: Yeah you can beat the crap out of someone with a pipe, but when was the last time someone killed a whole group of strangers with a pipe?

Regardless, you are basically agreeing my point, give someone a tool that empowers and enables them and likelihood of them doing it goes way up. The problem is guns make people feel much more empowered and gives them much more killing power, than any other commonly available weapon.

BTW: You have a scar on your hand from a non-gun, as opposed to a 12 square-foot plot of land with your rotting corpse in it.

Very true. And guns are so 'clean' at killing. Killing with a blunt object is just so messy and up close and personal. Humans are averse to that sort of thing. A gun empowers them to kill in a much more surgical and detached way.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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What is so hard to understand about this?

Your stereotyping the response. This is what makes it difficult to understand.

In your example, a Gun.
You dont have a universal response to it.
A Gun is not the same object across the board to every demographic.
If you think it is, again its because its' being stereotyped in the response.

A Gun to a Police Officer = a line of Self Defense.

A Gun to a Hunter = A Tool in which the person uses to either Hunt for Food, or Hunt for sport.
The first would be on the same league as a FarmingTractor, while the second is the same as Tennis Racket.

A Gun to a collector = Something of an object of worship / appreciation.

A Gun to a terrorist = an object of mass destruction / carnage.


When you see a gun on different people you also have a different reaction, also in regards if its aimed at you or not.
the same can be said about Cars, if a car is reving in front of you, burning rear tires like its gonna run you, its the same response.


This is why the statement : "Guns are only as bad as the people who carry them" applies.
Its the person who makes the statement with the gun, not the object itself.

Of course that being said, i condone lose and lightly regulated gun laws.
Some people should not be allowed to touch a fire arm period.

But i can also say the same thing about cars.
Some idiots should not be allowed drive either on the open public roads.
.
 
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