Obama's weakness on foreign policy issues

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Obama has some serious problems when it comes to foreign policy.
Instead of posting a thread for every articles dealing with these problems I am going to start a collection of them so everyone can read them and decide for themselves if this is an issue or not.

Up first is an example of why talking to ones enemies might not always be the best course of action.

link
IN his inaugural address, President John F. Kennedy expressed in two eloquent sentences, often invoked by Barack Obama, a policy that turned out to be one of his presidency?s ? indeed one of the cold war?s ? most consequential: ?Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.? Arthur Schlesinger Jr., Kennedy?s special assistant, called those sentences ?the distinctive note? of the inaugural.

They have also been a distinctive note in Senator Obama?s campaign, and were made even more prominent last week when President Bush, in a speech to Israel?s Parliament, disparaged a willingness to negotiate with America?s adversaries as appeasement. Senator Obama defended his position by again enlisting Kennedy?s legacy: ?If George Bush and John McCain have a problem with direct diplomacy led by the president of the United States, then they can explain why they have a problem with John F. Kennedy, because that?s what he did with Khrushchev.?

But Kennedy?s one presidential meeting with Nikita Khrushchev, the Soviet premier, suggests that there are legitimate reasons to fear negotiating with one?s adversaries. Although Kennedy was keenly aware of some of the risks of such meetings ? his Harvard thesis was titled ?Appeasement at Munich? ? he embarked on a summit meeting with Khrushchev in Vienna in June 1961, a move that would be recorded as one of the more self-destructive American actions of the cold war, and one that contributed to the most dangerous crisis of the nuclear age.

Senior American statesmen like George Kennan advised Kennedy not to rush into a high-level meeting, arguing that Khrushchev had engaged in anti-American propaganda and that the issues at hand could as well be addressed by lower-level diplomats. Kennedy?s own secretary of state, Dean Rusk, had argued much the same in a Foreign Affairs article the previous year: ?Is it wise to gamble so heavily? Are not these two men who should be kept apart until others have found a sure meeting ground of accommodation between them??

But Kennedy went ahead, and for two days he was pummeled by the Soviet leader. Despite his eloquence, Kennedy was no match as a sparring partner, and offered only token resistance as Khrushchev lectured him on the hypocrisy of American foreign policy, cautioned America against supporting ?old, moribund, reactionary regimes? and asserted that the United States, which had valiantly risen against the British, now stood ?against other peoples following its suit.? Khrushchev used the opportunity of a face-to-face meeting to warn Kennedy that his country could not be intimidated and that it was ?very unwise? for the United States to surround the Soviet Union with military bases.

Kennedy?s aides convinced the press at the time that behind closed doors the president was performing well, but American diplomats in attendance, including the ambassador to the Soviet Union, later said they were shocked that Kennedy had taken so much abuse. Paul Nitze, the assistant secretary of defense, said the meeting was ?just a disaster.? Khrushchev?s aide, after the first day, said the American president seemed ?very inexperienced, even immature.? Khrushchev agreed, noting that the youthful Kennedy was ?too intelligent and too weak.? The Soviet leader left Vienna elated ? and with a very low opinion of the leader of the free world.

Kennedy?s assessment of his own performance was no less severe. Only a few minutes after parting with Khrushchev, Kennedy, a World War II veteran, told James Reston of The New York Times that the summit meeting had been the ?roughest thing in my life.? Kennedy went on: ?He just beat the hell out of me. I?ve got a terrible problem if he thinks I?m inexperienced and have no guts. Until we remove those ideas we won?t get anywhere with him.?

A little more than two months later, Khrushchev gave the go-ahead to begin erecting what would become the Berlin Wall. Kennedy had resigned himself to it, telling his aides in private that ?a wall is a hell of a lot better than a war.? The following spring, Khrushchev made plans to ?throw a hedgehog at Uncle Sam?s pants?: nuclear missiles in Cuba. And while there were many factors that led to the missile crisis, it is no exaggeration to say that the impression Khrushchev formed at Vienna ? of Kennedy as ineffective ? was among them.

If Barack Obama wants to follow in Kennedy?s footsteps, he should heed the lesson that Kennedy learned in his first year in office: sometimes there is good reason to fear to negotiate.


 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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Next, Joe Lieberman on how the Democratic Party has gone astray from FDR, Truman and JFK.

link
How did the Democratic Party get here? How did the party of Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman and John F. Kennedy drift so far from the foreign policy and national security principles and policies that were at the core of its identity and its purpose?

Beginning in the 1940s, the Democratic Party was forced to confront two of the most dangerous enemies our nation has ever faced: Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. In response, Democrats under Roosevelt, Truman and Kennedy forged and conducted a foreign policy that was principled, internationalist, strong and successful.

This was the Democratic Party that I grew up in ? a party that was unhesitatingly and proudly pro-American, a party that was unafraid to make moral judgments about the world beyond our borders. It was a party that understood that either the American people stood united with free nations and freedom fighters against the forces of totalitarianism, or that we would fall divided.

This was the Democratic Party of Harry Truman, who pledged that "it must be the policy of the United States to support free peoples who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures."

And this was the Democratic Party of John F. Kennedy, who promised in his inaugural address that the United States would "pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and the success of freedom."

This worldview began to come apart in the late 1960s, around the war in Vietnam. In its place, a very different view of the world took root in the Democratic Party. Rather than seeing the Cold War as an ideological contest between the free nations of the West and the repressive regimes of the communist world, this rival political philosophy saw America as the aggressor ? a morally bankrupt, imperialist power whose militarism and "inordinate fear of communism" represented the real threat to world peace.

It argued that the Soviets and their allies were our enemies not because they were inspired by a totalitarian ideology fundamentally hostile to our way of life, or because they nursed ambitions of global conquest. Rather, the Soviets were our enemy because we had provoked them, because we threatened them, and because we failed to sit down and accord them the respect they deserved. In other words, the Cold War was mostly America's fault.

Of course that leftward lurch by the Democrats did not go unchallenged. Democratic Cold Warriors like Scoop Jackson fought against the tide. But despite their principled efforts, the Democratic Party through the 1970s and 1980s became prisoner to a foreign policy philosophy that was, in most respects, the antithesis of what Democrats had stood for under Roosevelt, Truman and Kennedy.

Then, beginning in the 1980s, a new effort began on the part of some of us in the Democratic Party to reverse these developments, and reclaim our party's lost tradition of principle and strength in the world. Our band of so-called New Democrats was successful sooner than we imagined possible when, in 1992, Bill Clinton and Al Gore were elected. In the Balkans, for example, as President Clinton and his advisers slowly but surely came to recognize that American intervention, and only American intervention, could stop Slobodan Milosevic and his campaign of ethnic slaughter, Democratic attitudes about the use of military force in pursuit of our values and our security began to change.

This happy development continued into the 2000 campaign, when the Democratic candidate ? Vice President Gore ? championed a freedom-focused foreign policy, confident of America's moral responsibilities in the world, and unafraid to use our military power. He pledged to increase the defense budget by $50 billion more than his Republican opponent ? and, to the dismay of the Democratic left, made sure that the party's platform endorsed a national missile defense.

By contrast, in 2000, Gov. George W. Bush promised a "humble foreign policy" and criticized our peacekeeping operations in the Balkans.

Today, less than a decade later, the parties have completely switched positions. The reversal began, like so much else in our time, on September 11, 2001. The attack on America by Islamist terrorists shook President Bush from the foreign policy course he was on. He saw September 11 for what it was: a direct ideological and military attack on us and our way of life. If the Democratic Party had stayed where it was in 2000, America could have confronted the terrorists with unity and strength in the years after 9/11.

Instead a debate soon began within the Democratic Party about how to respond to Mr. Bush. I felt strongly that Democrats should embrace the basic framework the president had advanced for the war on terror as our own, because it was our own. But that was not the choice most Democratic leaders made. When total victory did not come quickly in Iraq, the old voices of partisanship and peace at any price saw an opportunity to reassert themselves. By considering centrism to be collaboration with the enemy ? not bin Laden, but Mr. Bush ? activists have successfully pulled the Democratic Party further to the left than it has been at any point in the last 20 years.

Far too many Democratic leaders have kowtowed to these opinions rather than challenging them. That unfortunately includes Barack Obama, who, contrary to his rhetorical invocations of bipartisan change, has not been willing to stand up to his party's left wing on a single significant national security or international economic issue in this campaign.

In this, Sen. Obama stands in stark contrast to John McCain, who has shown the political courage throughout his career to do what he thinks is right ? regardless of its popularity in his party or outside it.

John also understands something else that too many Democrats seem to have become confused about lately ? the difference between America's friends and America's enemies.

There are of course times when it makes sense to engage in tough diplomacy with hostile governments. Yet what Mr. Obama has proposed is not selective engagement, but a blanket policy of meeting personally as president, without preconditions, in his first year in office, with the leaders of the most vicious, anti-American regimes on the planet.

Mr. Obama has said that in proposing this, he is following in the footsteps of Reagan and JFK. But Kennedy never met with Castro, and Reagan never met with Khomeini. And can anyone imagine Presidents Kennedy or Reagan sitting down unconditionally with Ahmadinejad or Chavez? I certainly cannot.

If a president ever embraced our worst enemies in this way, he would strengthen them and undermine our most steadfast allies.

A great Democratic secretary of state, Dean Acheson, once warned "no people in history have ever survived, who thought they could protect their freedom by making themselves inoffensive to their enemies." This is a lesson that today's Democratic Party leaders need to relearn.


 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
if you don't think Iran will concede to disarming itself after a good long hug in the sharing circle, I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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From everyone's favorite former UN Ambassador :)

link
President Bush's speech to Israel's Knesset, where he equated "negotiat[ing] with the terrorists and radicals" to "the false comfort of appeasement," drew harsh criticism from Barack Obama and other Democratic leaders. They apparently thought the president was talking about them, and perhaps he was.

Wittingly or not, the president may well have created a defining moment in the 2008 campaign. And Mr. Obama stepped right into the vortex by saying he was willing to debate John McCain on national security "any time, any place." Mr. McCain should accept that challenge today.

The Obama view of negotiations as the alpha and the omega of U.S. foreign policy highlights a fundamental conceptual divide between the major parties and their putative presidential nominees. This divide also opened in 2004, when John Kerry insisted that our foreign policy pass a "global test" to be considered legitimate.

At first glance, the idea of sitting down with adversaries seems hard to quarrel with. In our daily lives, we meet with competitors, opponents and unpleasant people all the time. Mr. Obama hopes to characterize the debate about international negotiations as one between his reasonableness and the hard-line attitude of a group of unilateralist GOP cowboys.

The real debate is radically different. On one side are those who believe that negotiations should be used to resolve international disputes 99% of the time. That is where I am, and where I think Mr. McCain is. On the other side are those like Mr. Obama, who apparently want to use negotiations 100% of the time. It is the 100%-ers who suffer from an obsession that is naïve and dangerous.

Negotiation is not a policy. It is a technique. Saying that one favors negotiation with, say, Iran, has no more intellectual content than saying one favors using a spoon. For what? Under what circumstances? With what objectives? On these specifics, Mr. Obama has been consistently sketchy.

Like all human activity, negotiation has costs and benefits. If only benefits were involved, then it would be hard to quarrel with the "what can we lose?" mantra one hears so often. In fact, the costs and potential downsides are real, and not to be ignored.

When the U.S. negotiates with "terrorists and radicals," it gives them legitimacy, a precious and tangible political asset. Thus, even Mr. Obama criticized former President Jimmy Carter for his recent meetings with Hamas leaders. Meeting with leaders of state sponsors of terrorism such as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Kim Jong Il is also a mistake. State sponsors use others as surrogates, but they are just as much terrorists as those who actually carry out the dastardly acts. Legitimacy and international acceptability are qualities terrorists crave, and should therefore not be conferred casually, if at all.

Moreover, negotiations ? especially those "without precondition" as Mr. Obama has specifically advocated ? consume time, another precious asset that terrorists and rogue leaders prize. Here, President Bush's reference to Hitler was particularly apt: While the diplomats of European democracies played with their umbrellas, the Nazis were rearming and expanding their industrial power.

In today's world of weapons of mass destruction, time is again a precious asset, one almost invariably on the side of the would-be proliferators. Time allows them to perfect the complex science and technology necessary to sustain nuclear weapons and missile programs, and provides far greater opportunity for concealing their activities from our ability to detect and, if necessary, destroy them.

Iran has conclusively proven how to use negotiations to this end. After five years of negotiations with the Europeans, with the Bush administration's approbation throughout, the only result is that Iran is five years closer to having nuclear weapons. North Korea has also used the Six-Party Talks to gain time, testing its first nuclear weapon in 2006, all the while cloning its Yongbyon reactor in the Syrian desert.

Finally, negotiations entail opportunity costs, consuming scarce presidential time and attention. Those resources cannot be applied everywhere, and engaging in true discussions, as opposed to political charades, does divert time and attention from other priorities. No better example can be found than the Bush administration's pursuit of the Annapolis Process between Arabs and Israelis, which has gone and will go nowhere. While Annapolis has been burning up U.S. time and effort, Lebanon has been burning, as Hezbollah strengthens its position there. This is an opportunity cost for the U.S., and a tragedy for the people of Lebanon.

President Bush is not running this November, no matter how hard Mr. Obama wishes it were so. Mr. McCain will have the chance to set out his own views on when and where diplomacy is appropriate, and where more fortitude is required. In any event, from the American voter's perspective, this debate on the role of negotiations in foreign policy will be critically, perhaps mortally, important. Bring it on.
 

Butterbean

Banned
Oct 12, 2006
918
1
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Obama's grasp of international relations is barber shop level stuff. "Hey man that Iran aint no USSR - shoot - dont even play me like that because I aint falling for it. I ain't worryin over no small ass country just because Bush wants to keep me busy from seeing what hes doing with his oil buddies"

That was really my jive Hillary impression.

Obama says Kennedy and Kruschev avoided trouble because they "talked". Trouble was avoided because of a stare down and not talks. "Talks" some months earlier are what gave the Soviets an idea they could pull the missiles off.

Throw all this stuff in with talking openly about invading Pakistan (which causes great trouble over there and was really irresponsible and dumb) and its clear the Dali Bama
doesn't really have very sophistcated grasp of relations/security (which Obama people know, and thats why they freaked out over Bush's appeasement speech in Israel - thinking he was talking about Obama when he wasn't. But they identified with the label via their guilty reaction).
 

hellod9

Senior member
Sep 16, 2007
249
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Republican Rhetoric: Sticks and Stones Prevent Broken Bones, But Words Will Always Hurt You
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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This is the best one yet.

It explains why Kennedy's meeting with Khrushchev was a failure and Reagan's meeting with Gorbachev was a success.
They key difference was that Kennedy tried to be accommodating which in turn made him look weak while Reagan had already established a position of strength from which to negotiate.

link
In their litany of American presidents who met with hostile dictators, supporters of Barack Obama cite John F. Kennedy and his meeting with Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev in Vienna in 1961. They leave out how it went.

The earnest, young American president wanted to forestall any possibility of misunderstanding and to win Khrushchev?s commitment to the international status quo. The blustery, risk-taking Soviet premier wanted to bludgeon Kennedy into making concessions that would further the Soviet goal of global revolution. With such clashing objectives, the two leaders didn?t exactly hit it off.

When Kennedy thought he was being accommodating, Khrushchev thought he was being weak. He pocketed rhetorical concessions by Kennedy and demanded more. Afterward, Kennedy called it ?the roughest thing in my life.? Kennedy adviser George Ball later said that Khrushchev had perceived Kennedy as ?young and weak,? and Kennedy confidant Gen. Maxwell Taylor thought Khrushchev concluded he could ?shove this young man around.? Vienna was the backdrop for Soviet assertion in the Cold War flash points to come.

Not all talking is created equal. Which is why it?s folly for a presidential candidate to make a blanket promise to negotiate personally with adversaries. Asked last year at the YouTube debate if he?d be willing to meet ?without precondition, during the first year of your administration ... with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea,? Obama said ?yes.? Since then, he?s tried to elevate his ill-considered improvisation into foreign-policy gospel.

So when, in a speech in Israel, President Bush characterized trying to talk adversaries out of their hatreds as appeasement, Obama and his supporters reacted as if he had been skewered to the core. The Obama Doctrine had been attacked! On foreign soil! They countered that the act of talking is, in itself, not appeasement. True enough. But neither is talking a substitute for strategy.

Consider President Reagan, another president invoked by Obama supporters. Reagan believed in personal diplomacy, but concluded upon taking office that it was pointless to talk to Soviet hard-liner Leonid Brezhnev. In stiffening U.S. defenses and pursuing the Strategic Defense Initiative, his administration sought to convince Moscow, in the words of Secretary of State George Shultz, that restraint ?was its most attractive, or only, option,? while pressuring the tottering Soviet economic system.

When Mikhail Gorbachev came to power, the administration thought it had the strategic upper hand, and a man it could work with. Reagan met with his counterpart in Geneva and Reykjavik. Keenly aware of his inability to keep pace in a high-tech arms race, Gorbachev wanted any deal contingent on prohibiting SDI. Reagan said ?no.? Out of his weakness, Gorbachev eventually gave the Reagan administration the kinds of arms cuts it wanted and openings in the Soviet system. The Cold War was about to end.

If a President Obama handles relations with Iran as deftly, maneuvering the clerical regime to its doom, he?s worthy of his hype. Nothing suggests that he even conceives of his desire to talk in these terms. To do so, he?d have to develop some appreciation for the concept of leverage.

Has the Bush administration been too diplomatically inflexible? Maybe, but it has allowed the EU-3 (Great Britain, France, and Germany) to take the lead with Iran, and the Europeans have offered incentives for the suspension of its nuclear program. It has engaged in prolonged negotiations with North Korea, winning the (dubious) promise of the suspension of its nuclear program. It has relentlessly promoted Israel-Palestinian negotiations.

We have a recent example of even more active Middle East diplomacy. President Clinton had Yasser Arafat to the White House more than any other foreign leader, and his secretary of state, Warren Christopher, spent long, bootless hours with then-Syrian President Hafez al-Assad. When Clinton tried to pressure Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak into a deal that wasn?t there near the end of his second term, the second intifada erupted. It wasn?t appeasement; it was just foolish. Obama beware.


 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Obama has some serious problems when it comes to foreign policy.
Instead of posting a thread for every articles dealing with these problems I am going to start a collection of them so everyone can read them and decide for themselves if this is an issue or not.

Up first is an example of why talking to ones enemies might not always be the best course of action.

link
Blah,blah,blah
You know ProJo I'd like to believe you but your track record on those whom you support is so poor that I can't bring myself to it and feel confident that I'm making the right choice.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,839
2,625
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PJ, it seems that you are going back into the 200% GOP party line shill mode again. It's a a shame, because you can occassionally make an intelligent point when you don't smother it with all the party line garbage.

I mean, after all, an article from the former interim ambassador John Bolton run in the Wall Street Journal? You don't have to be Jeanne Dixon to be able to predict what conclusions that op-ed piece will reach.

The fact of the matter is that a lot of people, myself included, feel that your man McCain shows a disturbing lack of both discretion and critical thinking when it comes to foreign policy. For example:

(1) his "bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" needless provocative blunder,
(2) his public acknowledgement that this Iraq War was really all about oil, then when he is called out about it, changes his tune and disparges the vets of the first Iraq War by claiming it was that war that was all about oil (a two-fer move, as far as putting your foot in your mouth),
(3) his infamous 100, 1000 year commit about Iraq, later modified to claim what he really meant was he essentially wants permanent US bases -talk about a comment that will greatly disturb and destabilize the entire Mid-East, where many have long thought this was our original (bad) intention from the get-go,
(4) his juvenile "league of democracies" idea, needlessly provocative to Russia without gaining one whit of benefit.

The GOP pundits make much of McCain's so-called experience, and foreign policy is supposed to be his strong suit (it certainly isn't economics). But from what I see, McCain's thought process far too frequently lapses into the frat-boy bull session mode. We have already had one clown like that in the White House, we certainly don't need Bush Lite to follow him up.

Given a choice, I think Obama displays extremely strong intellectual rigor, and a large degree of common sense. I'll take that over McCain's so-called experience, and your Bolton, Ollie North, et al. neo-con clowns any day. We don't need to continue these failed policies.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,992
6,813
126
This is not a real issue. The real issue is that Senator McCain knows nothing about farming and we all need to eat. The guy has never grown an ear of corn in his life and his Chia pet died. A vote for McCain is a vote for starvation. Senator McCain's answer to farming is bull shit and that's worth Jack without water. A vote for McCain is a vote to turn the US into Arizona. I don't want to eat cactus and Kangaroo rats and if you don't either vote for Obama. Get real on the issues.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
The entire thesis in this thread started by non Prof John is not even up to the human level of intelligence.

We might as well be talking about two fairly well matched dung beetles, and be saying the most resolute dung beetle will win in the push and shove contest. And the loser will be trust off the shit pile and the winner can sit on top because might makes right.

Here I thought humans were supposed to be smarter than that, but PJ does give me good reasons for doubt.

Maybe we need to scurry back to the very Israeli Knesset where GWB opened his mouth. There is no doubt about it, Israel is the far bigger dung beetle that has already tossed the weaker Palestinians out from the land of their birth and now sits astride Israel firmly on top. Yet on its 60'th anniversary, Israel has known no peace as hostile Arabs and Palestinians remain outraged by the injustices and remain determined to push the Israelis off their dung pile to drown in the sea. No amount of Israeli oppression does anything to decrease the hatreds. At no time has Israel offered any fundamental compromises that might allow an equitable solution. My bet is the advantage will inevitably move to the Arab and Palestinian side so the no compromise solution may be short term smart but long term stupid.

And Khrushchev and Gorbachev were fundamentally different leaders. Nikita tried bluff and bluster while his economy was getting stronger. He ended up backing down because Kennedy had the stronger nuclear arsenal and the delivery systems to go with it. Gorbachev had the near parity nuclear arsenal but a failing economy. He took the short term galling peace dividend, now the Russian economy is restructured and in far better long term shape than ours, and we
refused to take the peace dividend and are drowning in debt and stuck in two quagmires we are not winning militarily.

Some may say Reagan skinned Gorbachev on the deal, but the longer term view may be that we skinned ourself on the deal. South Africa may be another example of long term human wisdom as a Prisoner was released from jail and became the inspired leader of a nation that discarded revenge.

As a species, we might hope we are smarter than dung beetles. Its just depends on the vision and discarding the notion that every contest must have one big winner and one big loser. We are again trying that notion again under GWB&co. and the results, seem totally counterproductive both in short and long term views.

In Obama, we have some hope of a longer term vision that may move us away from the failed policies of the past. Or we can pick McSame and be almost guaranteed to have more or the same.

But it is rather interesting that that the first line of this non Prof John thread starts with.
" Obama has some serious problems when it comes to foreign policy. "

When it implies that the GWB&co. foreign policy is going gangbusters.

Once you realize the GWB foreign policy is failing badly, Obama merely would be seriously different than the failed GWB foreign policy. Maybe Obama is a gamble but it it still beats a proven failure.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
40,001
33,711
136
Yes we have a sharp comparison because the foriegn policy of Bush and the rebublicans has been such a roaring success over the last 7 years.

 

extra

Golden Member
Dec 18, 1999
1,947
7
81
Is it wrong that I read the threat (for some reason this fit better than thread) title and was able to guess the author of the thread before I looked at it? LoL.

The thing is, Obama, like Kennedy, has surrounded himself with many smart, young, minds.

Your article comments on Khrushchev. How he didn't respect Kennedy. LOL! Your post is a joke and that article is a joke. Khrushchev had GREAT respect for Kennedy later on in his life once he was able to reflect on what they (both of them) had gone through in a sense, together. How do we know this? Oh yeah, Khrushchev's own Memoirs about his life. Which that guy has obviously not read.

Khrushchev and Kennedy were both pressured by right-wing hardliners in their own governments and/or militaries who tried to push them each to do things to start war. Khrushchev writes extremely favorably about Kennedy in his Memoirs and considers them to have both been under the same pressures. He writes about how Kennedy had made the right--courageous and wise--choices.

And "Reagan sitting down unconditionally with Ahmadinejad or Chavez? I certainly cannot." Yeah. I can't imagine Reagan appeasing anyone in Iran. LoL. Wheeee!
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Wittingly or not, the president may well have created a defining moment in the 2008 campaign. And Mr. Obama stepped right into the vortex by saying he was willing to debate John McCain on national security "any time, any place." Mr. McCain should accept that challenge today.

He should. And by my estimation, Senator Obama will likely absolutely wipe the floor with Senator McCain, because what Senator McCain wants is not what the vast majority of the electorate wants. Which is why that challenge has not been taken up.

So paste all the op-ed pieces you'd like, but realize that your own candidate doesn't have the fortitude to pick up the gauntlet that's been tossed down in front of him. He knows how it'll end.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Chances of me reading massively long articles without any summary/input are currently reading at 9%.

I think a great example of where Obama's sense of foreign policy sucks was in his pre-iraq war statements about how much of a mess it would be. Damn, he was so wrong! It's been just awesome.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,273
55,857
136
If Pro-Jo read his own links he would see that the first story says that negotiating with Kruschev wasn't the mistake, it was that Kennedy took part in those negotiations himself before establishing a firm ground of mutual agreement. Ie. They thought different forms of diplomacy should take place before a high level summit, not that diplomacy shouldn't take place.

Of course at this point I can't say I'm surprised. What I'm wondering is if he is this getting this from a right wing blog, if he's being paid to do this, or if he's just this much of a partisan that he's doing it for free?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
It argued that the Soviets and their allies were our enemies not because they were inspired by a totalitarian ideology fundamentally hostile to our way of life, or because they nursed ambitions of global conquest. Rather, the Soviets were our enemy because we had provoked them, because we threatened them, and because we failed to sit down and accord them the respect they deserved. In other words, the Cold War was mostly America's fault.

Gee where have we heard this? Oh yes almost everyday. Replace Soviets with Islamocists and the Cold War with the War on Terror.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Obama isn't the one that doesn't know Shia from Sunnis or who the leader of Iran is...
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Let's look at this logically like PJ is asking us to and like he obviously has done.

First Op-Ed piece written in a very conservative editorial paper describing a single meeting as "one of the more self-destructive American actions of the cold war, and one that contributed to the most dangerous crisis of the nuclear age."

I guess the fact that it was negotiating back and forth is what actually ended "the most dangerous crisis of the nuclear age" is irrelevant when you are trying to prove that negotiating is not something that should be done.

Second Op-Ed piece written by Joe Lieberman. He argues that the party has gone astray while trying to make the case with appeals to emotion ("proudly pro-American"), using flawed logic (a party that was unafraid to make moral judgments about the world beyond our borders (any judgment call about the world beyond our borders should include the morality of the decision being made)) and hypocrisy ("the American people stood united with free nations and freedom fighters against the forces of totalitarianism" (Funny, I keep hearing him talk about the insurgents in Iraq as terrorists and not freedom fighters trying to hold off what many see as an attempt at imperialism)). Lieberman has proven himself to be a complete tool for the Israeli lobby and will say and do anything within his power to demonize anyone that might do something he feels could effect Israel in a less than glowing manner. He really should be in their parliament and not in our Senate.

Third Op-Ed piece written by...are you serious?...John Bolten. I'll tell you what PJ, tell us exactly what Bolten has been RIGHT ABOUT in regards to foreign policy over the last decade and we can take it from there.

Fourth Op-Ed piece written by as partisan a hack as you can get... Rich Lowry

Richard A. Lowry (born 22 August 1968) is editor of the National Review.

Lowry was born in Arlington, Virginia. He regularly appears on the Fox News Channel. He has guest-hosted on Hannity and Colmes on Fox & Friends, and is a guest panelist on Fox News Watch.

Lowry, who graduated in 1990 from of the University of Virginia, joined William F. Buckley's National Review, in 1992 and has been the magazine's editor since 1997.

His book, Legacy: Paying the Price for the Clinton Years (ISBN 0-89526-129-4) is a critical look at former President Bill Clinton. He also has a syndicated column with King Features.

Can you come back with a few examples from people that give the appearance of being objective at least once in a while?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,992
6,813
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
If Pro-Jo read his own links he would see that the first story says that negotiating with Kruschev wasn't the mistake, it was that Kennedy took part in those negotiations himself before establishing a firm ground of mutual agreement. Ie. They thought different forms of diplomacy should take place before a high level summit, not that diplomacy shouldn't take place.

Of course at this point I can't say I'm surprised. What I'm wondering is if he is this getting this from a right wing blog, if he's being paid to do this, or if he's just this much of a partisan that he's doing it for free?

The notion that he's being paid, along with having no moral scruples, make some sense.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Well one damn thing for sure, if the neo cons have not already made it crystal clear that Obama is just not ever gonna be one of them and hence is ineligible to join their clubhouse, they need to step up the pace.

I am not so sure that Obama will redouble his non existent efforts to win the approval of Dick Cheney and all of his little merchant of death circle of friends.

I think its exactly what Obama is talking about when he refers to the failed thinking of the past.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
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McCain thinks we can win a war in a region that has had religious wars for thousands of years. So that basically puts him behind a 4th grader in understanding foreign policy.