ObamaCare - Runaway Train To Less Freedom, Higher Taxes And Rationed Care

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
MICHAEL O. LEAVITT was Secretary of Health and Human Services from 2005-09. Previously, he was the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency and elected three times as the Governor of Utah.


Runaway Train To Less Freedom, Higher Taxes And Rationed Care

By MICHAEL O. LEAVITT | Posted Friday, July 17, 2009 4:20 PM PT Investor's Business Daily

President Obama and the Democratic leadership are trying to ram a medical insurance bill through Congress in record speed, before anyone can get a good look at it. This 1,000-page monstrosity was released last Tuesday. The president wanted to see voting start by Thursday.

The House bill would increase federal spending, increase taxes, increase debt, increase health costs, increase unemployment, reduce wages, reduce American competitiveness and provide nothing to anyone until 2013.

The bill reminds me of Winston Churchill's line: "Never . . . was so much owed by so many to so few." Under this bill, the vast majority of Americans would owe a great deal throughout the foreseeable future ? paid directly to the IRS or in kind ? while a comparatively small number would benefit in a meaningful way.

Job Losses

The president's runaway-train approach is the same one he used with the economic "stimulus" package. On the very day the House health bill was released, newspapers reported the Treasury Department's announcement that we have amassed our first one-year deficit of $1 trillion ? and we have accomplished this in just six months. If the $1.2 trillion House bill becomes law, that record likely won't last for long.

The three central problems in American medical insurance are the rising costs of care, the deficit spending resulting from the rising costs of Medicare and Medicaid, and the number of uninsured.

The House bill does nothing to deal with costs, would increase deficits and would apply a multitude of new taxes to pay for those who are uninsured.

The bill contains a pay-or-play provision that would require all but the smallest businesses to provide health insurance or else pay a fine equal to 8% of payroll.

The White House's own internal estimates ? based on a model developed by Council of Economic Advisors Chairwoman Christina Romer ? say this would cost employers $300 billion and would cost workers 5 million jobs.

Hide Those Dollars

The bill would increase income taxes by $583 billion. The White House says only the rich would be taxed. The truth is, this would be a tax on job creation. More than half of all those taxed would be small-business owners, and the taxes would be substantial.

The White House projection that 5 million jobs would be lost doesn't even factor in the adverse effects of this tax, but money taken from the pockets of job creators inevitably leads to pink slips for employees.

Even the Washington Post editorial board says "there is no case to be made" for this "ad hoc" and "unrealistic" tax. The Post notes the tax would encourage the wealthy to hide their money rather than make productive investments, and it would make it harder to tap the rich's incomes "if and when Congress and the Obama administration get serious about the long-term federal deficit." The Post concludes this "is bad policy any way you look at it."

In addition, the bill would impose a 2.5% penalty ? or tax ? on those who remain uninsured. So if you don't feel you can afford health insurance, you'll get to send money to the IRS instead. This is sort of the opposite of having your cake and eating it too.

The bill also mandates that employers offer health plans with greater benefits.

As the Congressional Budget Office notes, employers will pass along the costs of those increased benefits to workers ? by paying lower wages.

Some people will presumably be happy having more money taken out of their paycheck to pay for more medical benefits. But shouldn't people have the choice? Some people would probably like to be able to pay their rent, not just their doctors.

The House bill isn't about leaving decisions to the people. It's about funneling money and power to Washington. This is a government takeover of health care, and the only clear winner is the Washington establishment.

In pushing for such a radical bill, the Obama administration and congressional leaders are leaving moderate Democrats and the American people behind.

A recent poll indicates that while only 22% of Americans strongly favor the Democrats' medical insurance plan, 38% strongly oppose it ? and the number of people strongly opposed is rising.

In the wake of the House bill's release, that number is sure to rise further.

Not All Bleak

That's the one bright spot. More and more Americans are realizing that ObamaCare is the ticket to higher taxes, higher deficits, higher health costs, reduced wages, reduced American competitiveness, reduced freedom and rationed care.

Reason and sobriety can still take hold and beat back this attempt to impose government-run medical care on the American people. The box score is not yet printed. Rather, the ballgame is just under way.

 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
If you watched the Bill Moyer's interview, you'll know this article has every talking point Republicans have used against health care reform since the Clinton-era.
 

Xellos2099

Platinum Member
Mar 8, 2005
2,277
13
81
It is also the "truth"? Why should I have to pay additional tax if I don't want health insurance? Isn't this invasion of right? Taxation without proper representation? I will take phone tab over this evil any days of my life.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: Xellos2099
It is also the "truth"? Why should I have to pay additional tax if I don't want health insurance? Isn't this invasion of right?
You have to pay for auto insurance, even if you don't want it.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,477
9,697
136
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Xellos2099
It is also the "truth"? Why should I have to pay additional tax if I don't want health insurance? Isn't this invasion of right?
You have to pay for auto insurance, even if you don't want it.

I believe the ideology is, anyone using government services is beholden to the rules of those services.

Of course, it doesn't really make sense that you're forced to use the service.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
Originally posted by: jpeyton

If you watched the Bill Moyers' interview, you'll know this article has every talking point Republicans have used against health care reform since the Clinton-era.

I saw Moyer's piece on this, and those same Republicans been wrong been wrong every time. They don't give a shit. They've got their Congressional asses covered by THEIR free health care and their bank accounts padded by the insurance execs whose job it is to deny as many claims as they can, regardless of merit.

Those insurance execs don't give a shit, either... as long as they get their megabuck bonuses and golden parachutes. :thumbsdown:
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Xellos2099
It is also the "truth"? Why should I have to pay additional tax if I don't want health insurance? Isn't this invasion of right?
You have to pay for auto insurance, even if you don't want it.

I believe the ideology is, anyone using government services is beholden to the rules of those services.
If you don't like government rules, buy private health insurance.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,477
9,697
136
Originally posted by: jpeyton
If you don't like government rules, buy private health insurance.

Buying nothing is illegal?

Also, how is private health insurance supposed to compete against tax dollar subsided "public" insurance?
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: jpeyton
If you don't like government rules, buy private health insurance.

Buying nothing is illegal?
Driving a car without insurance is illegal.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,477
9,697
136
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: jpeyton
If you don't like government rules, buy private health insurance.

Buying nothing is illegal?
Driving a car without insurance is illegal.

Driving is a privilege.

We have to purchase our privilege to live now?
 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
4,159
0
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
If you watched the Bill Moyer's interview, you'll know this article has every talking point Republicans have used against health care reform since the Clinton-era.

Not true. I don't want insult you unduly but you make a lot of logical leaps and false assertions. It seems like half of your posts in P&N contain all kinds of logical errors.

The interview on the Bill Moyer show simply makes the case that:

A) for-profit health insurance is a fundamentally bad idea

B) for-profit insurance is corrupt, just like all big-dollar businesses

C) a lot of people don't have health insurance but want/need healthcare

Now all of these points are fact, to me at least, but all those points do is establish the need to move away from for-profit insurance and figure out a means of helping our uninsured.

The Bill Moyer interview says jack shit, for instance, about what the present UHC bill will do to our debt... and how could it? The interview was done before the ink dried on the present legislation.

The interview mentions almost nothing about who should pay for UHC and how the tax structure should modified to pay for UHC or what this will do the job market, etc.

And even if the interview did say something about how to finance UHC, I wouldn't care about that guy's opinion... he was a marketing/PR guy, not a finance guy.

The OP article bring up some good points.... a group of folks are trying to ram this legislation through congress without addressing some valid concerns that are being voiced on both sides of the aisle.
 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
4,159
0
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Xellos2099
It is also the "truth"? Why should I have to pay additional tax if I don't want health insurance? Isn't this invasion of right?
You have to pay for auto insurance, even if you don't want it.

But you have the right to NOT own a car and thus not pay insurance...

If you want to own and drive a car you have to get a license and buy insurance

If you want inexpensive healthcare you have to buy insurance... but people should have the right to not buy insurance if they don't want to.
 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
I've taken a long look at the actual text of the House version of the bill, and I don't like it one bit. It's a piece of shit.

I think we can all agree on two things:

1. We certainly need some form of healthcare reform or regulation to address the issues of prohibitive/rising costs and denied enrollment/treatments.
2. We don't want to do so using hastily crafted shoddy legislation.

...right?
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Xellos2099
It is also the "truth"? Why should I have to pay additional tax if I don't want health insurance? Isn't this invasion of right?
You have to pay for auto insurance, even if you don't want it.

But you have the right to NOT own a car and thus not pay insurance...

If you want to own and drive a car you have to get a license and buy insurance

If you want inexpensive healthcare you have to buy insurance... but people should have the right to not buy insurance if they don't want to.
If you drive, you are required to have auto insurance to protect you and others from unrecoverable financial liability in the event of an accident.

If you live, you should be required to have health insurance to protect you and others from unrecoverable financial liability in the event of an accident.

If you voluntarily choose not to have health care insurance, you are forcing ME to pay for your health care when you get into an accident and can't pay your six-figure bill, and the hospital passes on the costs to everyone else.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,477
9,697
136
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
2. We don't want to do so using hastily crafted shoddy legislation.

...right?

It needs to be rushed through before the mid term elections, else they run the risk of repeating their mistake in the 90s when the Republicans took control in 94 and the Dem's chances of doing anything were washed away... until now.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: jpeyton

If you watched the Bill Moyers' interview, you'll know this article has every talking point Republicans have used against health care reform since the Clinton-era.

I saw Moyer's piece on this, and those same Republicans been wrong been wrong every time. They don't give a shit. They've got their Congressional asses covered by THEIR free health care and their bank accounts padded by the insurance execs whose job it is to deny as many claims as they can, regardless of merit.

Those insurance execs don't give a shit, either... as long as they get their megabuck bonuses and golden parachutes. :thumbsdown:

You're right, I don't give a shit. Since the government is now taking on healthcare in addition to welfare and social security, I don't have any reason to give to charity or concern myself with the poor at all. All you proles can take your guv'mint cheese and stay in your ghettos and not bother the rest of us.
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Originally posted by: glenn1
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: jpeyton

If you watched the Bill Moyers' interview, you'll know this article has every talking point Republicans have used against health care reform since the Clinton-era.

I saw Moyer's piece on this, and those same Republicans been wrong been wrong every time. They don't give a shit. They've got their Congressional asses covered by THEIR free health care and their bank accounts padded by the insurance execs whose job it is to deny as many claims as they can, regardless of merit.

Those insurance execs don't give a shit, either... as long as they get their megabuck bonuses and golden parachutes. :thumbsdown:

You're right, I don't give a shit. Since the government is now taking on healthcare in addition to welfare and social security, I don't have any reason to give to charity or concern myself with the poor at all. All you proles can take your guv'mint cheese and stay in your ghettos and not bother the rest of us.

You know in the rest of the civilized world they have socialized health care and -shock-, people who don't live in the ghetto use it. Like doctors, and lawyers, bankers, and executives.

I'm sorry Rush failed you in talking point preparation.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
The article does serve the purpose of summarizing most of the major negative impacts of the legislation, and have no doubt that this legislation, like the "stimulus," is a poorly crafted work that will have significant negative impact on this country. It will come to be only if it is passed, just like the "stimulus," without the opportunity to carefully review and understand it's ramifications.

Let me use a personal example and get away a little bit from the macroeconomic arguments I have indulged in over the past few days as I have used my vacation time to do a bit of reading and posting here.

I use an HMO and I am no big fan of managed care, which former industry PR flack Wendell Potter criticizes in his interview with Moyers. In my current situation, however, if I find the restrictions imposed by the HMO unbearable I can find another company that might be better or I can opt to be uninsured and spend my money elsewhere. That is my choice and my freedom.

Under the proposed government plan, whether I want to or not, whether my employer wants to or not, a government medical plan or an equivalent private plan must be taken and paid for by myself and/or my employer (who will, if he elects to stay in business, pass on to the consumer in the form of higher prices for goods and services,) or a fine will be levied against myself and/or my employer. Neither I nor my employer will have a choice other than providing/taking private insurance or the government option. This, to me, is an abrogation of my freedom and certainly the freedom of the business that hires me and pays my wages and benefits. Just like the removal of my option to smoke a cigarette, drive a SUV, buy a cheap non-energy efficient house, express a politically incorrect opinion, etc. etc.

Doesn't it seem as though The State to a great extent now controls and aims to control much more of our thoughts and our actions under the guise of benevolence?

Do you get the idea that the government is positioning U.S. business to lose all competitive pricing advantage in the global marketplace?

I am no wing nut, right or left extremist, or whatever pejorative term seems so easily bandied about here by so many. Just someone who has worked and lived in other places than the US and experienced the good and the bad of other social experiments around the world. If anyone here has actually lived in a totalitarian state, you might just start to see the onset of one here in the US.

I had the privilege of attending a presentation last year by Vaclav Klaus, the President of the Czech Republic. Though he was presenting his thoughts on the new totalitarianism of environmentalism in introducing his book ?Blue Planet in Green Shackles,? (BTW a great, if technically dense, read written from his perspective as a government head and as a trained economist,) I can't help but think his comments and perspectives have great applicability in our debate on a whole host of issues dealing with the way the current government is rushing to impose "benevolent" restrictions on the private management of business, impose a particularly ineffective form of environmentalism (actually just a form of extraordinary taxation under different terminology,) impose a mandated health care agenda and driving all of this with massive deficit spending.

An extract of Professor Vaclav Klaus's opening remarks -

To make my position and my message clear, I should probably revoke my personal experience. My today?s thinking is substantially influenced by the fact that I spent most of my life under the communist regime which ignored and brutally violated human freedom and wanted to command not only the people but also the nature. To command ?wind and rain? is one of the famous slogans I remember since my childhood. This experience taught me that freedom and rational dealing with the environment are indivisible. It formed my relatively very sharp views on the fragility and vulnerability of free society and gave me a special sensitivity to all kinds of factors which may endanger it.

I do not, however, live in the past and do not see the future threats to free society coming from the old and old-fashioned communist ideology. The name of the new danger will undoubtedly be different, but its substance will be very similar. There will be the same attractive, to a great extent pathetic and at first sight quasi-noble idea that transcends the individual in the name of something above him, (of something greater than his poor self), supplemented by enormous self-confidence on the side of those who stand behind it. Like their predecessors, they will be certain that they have the right to sacrifice man and his freedom to make their idea reality. In the past it was in the name of the masses (or of the Proletariat), this time in the name of the Planet. Structurally, it is very similar.

This resonates with me in many ways as I am reminded by recent government actions of the "fragility and vulnerability of free society."
 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
81
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Xellos2099
It is also the "truth"? Why should I have to pay additional tax if I don't want health insurance? Isn't this invasion of right?
You have to pay for auto insurance, even if you don't want it.

But you have the right to NOT own a car and thus not pay insurance...

If you want to own and drive a car you have to get a license and buy insurance

If you want inexpensive healthcare you have to buy insurance... but people should have the right to not buy insurance if they don't want to.
If you drive, you are required to have auto insurance to protect you and others from unrecoverable financial liability in the event of an accident.

If you live, you should be required to have health insurance to protect you and others from unrecoverable financial liability in the event of an accident.

If you voluntarily choose not to have health care insurance, you are forcing ME to pay for your health care when you get into an accident and can't pay your six-figure bill, and the hospital passes on the costs to everyone else.

So instead we will have to pay for the insurance costs of the lazy?

 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: Budmantom
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Xellos2099
It is also the "truth"? Why should I have to pay additional tax if I don't want health insurance? Isn't this invasion of right?
You have to pay for auto insurance, even if you don't want it.

But you have the right to NOT own a car and thus not pay insurance...

If you want to own and drive a car you have to get a license and buy insurance

If you want inexpensive healthcare you have to buy insurance... but people should have the right to not buy insurance if they don't want to.
If you drive, you are required to have auto insurance to protect you and others from unrecoverable financial liability in the event of an accident.

If you live, you should be required to have health insurance to protect you and others from unrecoverable financial liability in the event of an accident.

If you voluntarily choose not to have health care insurance, you are forcing ME to pay for your health care when you get into an accident and can't pay your six-figure bill, and the hospital passes on the costs to everyone else.

So instead we will have to pay for the insurance costs of the lazy?
You seem eager to foot the health care costs of the uninsured.
 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
81
When I worked in health care the people with "the government option" used and abused the system a lot more than people with private insurance.

Recently we took our son to see his physician and we payed the $15 co-pay and a young lady(an Obama voter) was there with "the government option" her co-pay was a $1 and she had a big fit saying she couldn't afford it, she walked out with a bag full of freebies. Life is good ;)

 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
81
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Budmantom
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Xellos2099
It is also the "truth"? Why should I have to pay additional tax if I don't want health insurance? Isn't this invasion of right?
You have to pay for auto insurance, even if you don't want it.

But you have the right to NOT own a car and thus not pay insurance...

If you want to own and drive a car you have to get a license and buy insurance

If you want inexpensive healthcare you have to buy insurance... but people should have the right to not buy insurance if they don't want to.
If you drive, you are required to have auto insurance to protect you and others from unrecoverable financial liability in the event of an accident.

If you live, you should be required to have health insurance to protect you and others from unrecoverable financial liability in the event of an accident.

If you voluntarily choose not to have health care insurance, you are forcing ME to pay for your health care when you get into an accident and can't pay your six-figure bill, and the hospital passes on the costs to everyone else.

So instead we will have to pay for the insurance costs of the lazy?
You seem eager to foot the health care costs of the uninsured.

You seem eager to take advantage of the "free" option.

 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: Budmantom
When I worked in health care the people with "the government option" used and abused the system a lot more than people with private insurance.

Recently we took our son to see his physician and we payed the $15 co-pay and a young lady(an Obama voter) was there with "the government option" her co-pay was a $1 and she had a big fit saying she couldn't afford it, she walked out with a bag full of freebies. Life is good ;)
Luckily we don't write policy based on anecdotal evidence. Especially bad evidence.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: Budmantom
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Budmantom
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Xellos2099
It is also the "truth"? Why should I have to pay additional tax if I don't want health insurance? Isn't this invasion of right?
You have to pay for auto insurance, even if you don't want it.

But you have the right to NOT own a car and thus not pay insurance...

If you want to own and drive a car you have to get a license and buy insurance

If you want inexpensive healthcare you have to buy insurance... but people should have the right to not buy insurance if they don't want to.
If you drive, you are required to have auto insurance to protect you and others from unrecoverable financial liability in the event of an accident.

If you live, you should be required to have health insurance to protect you and others from unrecoverable financial liability in the event of an accident.

If you voluntarily choose not to have health care insurance, you are forcing ME to pay for your health care when you get into an accident and can't pay your six-figure bill, and the hospital passes on the costs to everyone else.

So instead we will have to pay for the insurance costs of the lazy?
You seem eager to foot the health care costs of the uninsured.

You seem eager to take advantage of the "free" option.
There's already a free option. Go to the emergency room and make Budmantom pay for it.