Obamacare back in court, and it looks bad for the law

[ProfJohn]

Three different stories that all suggest the judges are leaning towards throwing at least part of the law out.

It is a 3 judge panel with two Clinton judges and an H.W. Bush judge.

My guess is that if this panel throws the law out then the conservative leaning Supreme Court will follow suit. But this is the most conservative leaning district in the country so one never knows. Let's just hope it doesn't become a split decision.

It also looks like striking down that provision will cause the whole thing to be tossed out.

Link 1 LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/health/la-na-healthcare-court-20110609,0,1457877.story

Link 2
http://www2.alabamas13.com/news/201...rhaul-fight-pivotal-atlanta-court-ar-1944861/

link 3
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110608/ap_on_re_us/us_health_overhaul

 

[nobodyknows]

Oh please, your "guesses" aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

 

[Zebo]

This is going to SC and I bet almost anything it's struck down there. Don't worry.

 

[ProfJohn]

Oh please, your "guesses" aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

Care to make a guess yourself?

At least I am willing to state an opinion, even if it turns out wrong.

 

[Nebor]

Oh please, your "guesses" aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

You print his posts?

 

[theeedude]

Increases chances of Medicare for all, which is what I support, by process of elimination of alternatives, so I would take a USSC ruling against individual mandate. After that it's going to be status quo and universal single payer left in the ring.

 

[woolfe9999]

Care to make a guess yourself?

At least I am willing to state an opinion, even if it turns out wrong.

The only thing relevant here is Justice Anthony Kennedy's posture vis-a-vis the commerce clause, and the only thing to go on are his past rulings, which IMO are inconclusive as his other commerce clause cases were too dissimilar to this. Since we all know how the remaining justices will vote, it comes to this and only this. If you don't know much about Kennedy's past voting record and judicial philosphy, then I'm afraid you have very little basis for an opinion here.

 

[Zebo]

Increases chances of Medicare for all, which is what I support, by process of elimination of alternatives, so I would take a USSC ruling against individual mandate. After that it's going to be status quo and universal single payer left in the ring.

Even if mandate stays it will break all insurance companies. Why would you buy insurance when max fine is nominal and something happens they have to cover you and they have to take you on? Pay fine and move on. Buy best indemnity plan you can find until treated, cancel.

And I don't see how you get medicare for all out this. You have to be really poor to get medicare.

 

[theeedude]

Even if mandate stays it will break all insurance companies. Why would you buy insurance when max fine is nominal and something happens they have to cover you and they have to take you on? Pay fine and move on. Buy best indemnity plan you can find until treated, cancel.

And I don't see how you get medicare for all out this. You have to be really poor to get medicare.

Because the fine is going to increase until compliance reaches targets. The developed countries that don't have individual mandate have single payer systems, except the US, which has an unsustainable status quo. Eliminate individual mandate with a USSC ruling and the only option left when status quo collapses is going to be outright universal single payer, aka Medicare for all.

 

[Zebo]

Because the fine is going to increase until compliance reaches targets. The developed countries that don't have individual mandate have single payer systems, except the US, which has an unsustainable status quo. Eliminate individual mandate with a USSC ruling and the only option left when status quo collapses is going to be outright universal single payer, aka Medicare for all.

Fines are not able to be changed without another vote. Going in they are statutory chump change compared to health insurance premiums.

Good luck with this congress on the rest. You don't realize how bought and sold these people are. Making us buy a defective product which costs 3x what rest of the world charges should tell you that. 3x is nothing when everyone comes online though. When you have more demand than ever you raise prices, business 101, and they will.

 

[woolfe9999]

Even if mandate stays it will break all insurance companies. Why would you buy insurance when max fine is nominal and something happens they have to cover you and they have to take you on? Pay fine and move on. Buy best indemnity plan you can find until treated, cancel.

And I don't see how you get medicare for all out this. You have to be really poor to get medicare.

Several problems with this line of reasoning. If you're taken on with a pre-existing conditions, you'll end up paying I think double or more than double for your insurance. Also, there is a problem if something catastrophic like a car accident happens and you don't have insurance. You can't get it right then and there while in the hospital bed, and it won't cover anything incurred before the start of coverage. If you need emergency diagnostics and/or surgery, you're going to have to pay for it. Finally, what are you going to do about primary care/diagnostics? Suppose your cancer doesn't get discovered until it was too late because you couldn't afford primary care without the insurance? Doesn't matter if you can buy insurance then because you're already toast.

- wolf

 

[Zebo]

Several problems with this line of reasoning. If you're taken on with a pre-existing conditions, you'll end up paying I think double or more than double for your insurance. Also, there is a problem if something catastrophic like a car accident happens and you don't have insurance. You can't get it right then and there while in the hospital bed, and it won't cover anything incurred before the start of coverage. If you need emergency diagnostics and/or surgery, you're going to have to pay for it. Finally, what are you going to do about primary care/diagnostics? Suppose your cancer doesn't get discovered until it was too late because you couldn't afford primary care without the insurance? Doesn't matter if you can buy insurance then because you're already toast.

- wolf

They can't charge more for pre existing.

Emergency care is remedied by other policies like you most likely have 5-50K on your car insurance.

Buy insurance for one day once a year for full physical, the works.

 

[theeedude]

Fines are not able to be changed without another vote. Going in they are statutory chump change compared to health insurance premiums.

Good luck with this congress on the rest. You don't realize how bought and sold these people are. Making us buy a defective product which costs 3x what rest of the world charges should tell you that. 3x is nothing when everyone comes online though. When you have more demand than ever you raise prices, business 101, and they will.

It's in the insurance industry's interest that fines for not buying insurance be raised. It is precisely because I do realize how bought and sold politicians are that I think the fines will be raised until compliance levels are acceptable. Also, many of the countries in the rest of the developed world that spend 3x less have individual insurance mandates.

 

[woolfe9999]

They can't charge more for pre existing.

Emergency care is remedied by other policies like you most likely have 5-50K on your car insurance.

Buy insurance for one day once a year for full physical, the works.

Under the law, they can charge more for pre-existing. I forget the equation, but it is at least 200%.

Emergency care from car insurance (sometimes called "med pay" or "quick pay") is usually limited to $5k and ONLY covers injuries from auto accidents. Emergent care after a serious accident can run you into the 6 figures. You could buy catastropic health insurance, but that plus the fine are going to mean it makes more sense to buy a full policy, particularly considering that the government pays an average of 2/3's of the cost of the policy.

 

[Zebo]

Under the law, they can charge more for pre-existing. I forget the equation, but it is at least 200%.

Emergency care from car insurance (sometimes called "med pay" or "quick pay") is usually limited to $5k and ONLY covers injuries from auto accidents. Emergent care after a serious accident can run you into the 6 figures. You could buy catastropic health insurance, but that plus the fine are going to mean it makes more sense to buy a full policy, particularly considering that the government pays an average of 2/3's of the cost of the policy.

Insurers are prohibited from discriminating against or charging higher rates for any individuals based on pre-existing medical conditions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patien...dable_Care_Act#Effective_by_January_1.2C_2014

 

[woolfe9999]

Insurers are prohibited from discriminating against or charging higher rates for any individuals based on pre-existing medical conditions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patien...dable_Care_Act#Effective_by_January_1.2C_2014

Fair enough. They must have changed it in the last iteration in the House. In any event, both my other points stand. You're going to be screwed if you need emergent care and you won't have access to primary care. BTW short term coverage is generally only available as catastrophic coverage. It's the kind of insurance that people sometimes buy in between jobs. It doesn't cover primary.

 

[Zebo]

It's in the insurance industry's interest that fines for not buying insurance be raised. It is precisely because I do realize how bought and sold politicians are that I think the fines will be raised until compliance levels are acceptable. Also, many of the countries in the rest of the developed world that spend 3x less have individual insurance mandates.

Increasing the fine will not change anything either - if you raise it enough to deter; more offshoring will take place instead (not everyone is self employed) Already a survey 1/3 of employers said they won't carry insurance for their employees. Already ~2000 major employers have exemptions from Obama. You can't act as if there is endless money in the pot to pay this defective overpriced medical care, it's not and we are at a huge disadvantage because of the cost and of course will not be paid by many.

I personally know small business owners right now that can't afford it let alone as all the provisions come online and natural raising it does all the time... eg Insurance has gone up 150% in just last 10 years.

 

[Deeko]

I wonder if the old guy holding the "Hands of my healthcare" picture is on medicare? He looks to be of age, and would make his protest laughably hypocritical.

 

[Texashiker]

Increases chances of Medicare for all,

Hillary Clinton was talking about putting everyone on Medicare back in the 1990s. But the insurance companies dumped enough money into her pockets, that she forgot all about those silly ideas.

Unless something major changes, the insurance companies will never let Medicare serve the general public.

 

[ichy]

It doesn't matter what the appellate courts think. The only thing that does matter is the Supreme Court's decision. Hell, you can be sure that the four solid conservatives will oppose it and the four liberals will support it, so essentially Justice Kennedy gets to make this decision for the whole country.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Increasing the fine will not change anything either - if you raise it enough to deter; more offshoring will take place instead (not everyone is self employed) Already a survey 1/3 of employers said they won't carry insurance for their employees. Already ~2000 major employers have exemptions from Obama. You can't act as if there is endless money in the pot to pay this defective overpriced medical care, it's not and we are at a huge disadvantage because of the cost and of course will not be paid by many.

I personally know small business owners right now that can't afford it let alone as all the provisions come online and natural raising it does all the time... eg Insurance has gone up 150% in just last 10 years.

You make excellent arguments for UHC.

 

[theeedude]

Increasing the fine will not change anything either - if you raise it enough to deter; more offshoring will take place instead (not everyone is self employed) Already a survey 1/3 of employers said they won't carry insurance for their employees. Already ~2000 major employers have exemptions from Obama. You can't act as if there is endless money in the pot to pay this defective overpriced medical care, it's not and we are at a huge disadvantage because of the cost and of course will not be paid by many.

I personally know small business owners right now that can't afford it let alone as all the provisions come online and natural raising it does all the time... eg Insurance has gone up 150% in just last 10 years.

Who pays their employee's health care costs?

 

[First]

Care to make a guess yourself?

At least I am willing to state an opinion, even if it turns out wrong.

lol, can you name a single, solitary time when your guesses were accurate? Guessing the weather doesn't count.

 

[theeedude]

Hillary Clinton was talking about putting everyone on Medicare back in the 1990s. But the insurance companies dumped enough money into her pockets, that she forgot all about those silly ideas.

Unless something major changes, the insurance companies will never let Medicare serve the general public.

Something major has changed already. After GOP killed Hillarycare and did nothing to reform health care themselves, health care costs exploded, while incomes stagnated. The days of having your cake and letting the insurance companies eat it are coming to an end.

 

[lupi]

Increases chances of Medicare for all, which is what I support, by process of elimination of alternatives, so I would take a USSC ruling against individual mandate. After that it's going to be status quo and universal single payer left in the ring.

Don't think so, afterall this insurance mess is a FDR generated problem, how would another one be the solutioon.