Obama wants to grant driver's licenses to illegal immigrants.

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone
How is a driver's license a privilege? Driving is, but they are doing that anyway, legally or otherwise. At least licensing them offers an opportunity to help track their location and increases the odds they will be insured. I don't see much downside to this.

It also gives them the right and the means to get in a car and drive far, far away from the border, making the problem even more widespread. I personally am getting sick and tired of having to deal with a problem created by the border states for their own greedy needs.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Farang
Give them licenses. I have an education so they aren't taking my job. Nor are they taking my tax dollars (though they will if you want to build a stupid giant fucking wall). I'd rather they didn't slam into me unlicensed and uninsured, however.

What would you do if the Americans who were displaced by the illegals obtained educational credentials in your field and offered to do your job for 50% of your wage without any benefits? What if those people could demonstrate that they could do your job or quickly learn to do your job just as well as you do it?

Let's suppose that formerly middle-class blue collar Americans (carpenters, etc.) could no longer afford to purchase the goods and/or services that your employer produces and that you were laid off. Let's further suppose that few jobs were available in your field (as a result of the nation's economic downturn) and that throngs of people had obtained credentials in your field and were now seeking employment, offering to work for relatively low wages.

Now what, smart arse?

Let's suppose that, as a result of millions of formerly middle class Americans ending up unemployed as a result of worker displacement caused by offshoring, H-1B and L-1 visas, and illegal immigration, that it became necessary to double your income taxes in order to provide health care, welfare, and food stamps for millions of unemployed Americans. Would you feel affected?

You need to think about these issues in a holistic manner. Your job, your career, and your profession do not exist in an economic vacuum. Global labor arbitrage ultimately affects all of us.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone
How is a driver's license a privilege? Driving is, but they are doing that anyway, legally or otherwise. At least licensing them offers an opportunity to help track their location and increases the odds they will be insured. I don't see much downside to this.

It also gives them the right and the means to get in a car and drive far, far away from the border, making the problem even more widespread. I personally am getting sick and tired of having to deal with a problem created by the border states for their own greedy needs.

I will say again, how does giving them a license increase their ability to drive? The whole idea just seems ridiculous to me. They're already driving.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
It fascinates me, the simple minded, I mean, how some folk honestly see only black and white. Somewhere in the 50's I think, we got color television.

I find it equally fascinating that you with all of your intellectual capacity cannot play Devil's Advocate and have failed to think of any of negative consequences and costs of illegal immigration. It's as though feelings of altruism have overwhelmed your willingness to examine the issue rationally.

To be concerned for the welfare of the illegal aliens might imply a lack of concern for the welfare of the nation's environment...or the welfare of lower class Americans. What about the well-being of those people?

 

[xochi]

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Wheezer

You get a few good engineers, some concrete, iron and non-violent criminals serving time and I guarantee you we can build a barrier that will significantly stem the tide of illegals flowing into this country....and it would cost less in the long AND short term to do that than it does to allow them to come in here and suck off our system and pay no taxes.

This is something that has always bothered me about the border problems.
The cost they associate with it and saying its too expensive , etc.
We are the country that did things like the alaska pipeline, the hoover dam, and yet we can't build a fence ?

Really you don't even need a fence.
Just put up cameras every 5000feet.
Yeah its a lot of cameras, but its not a technical issue. London has way more cameras than it would take and they do just fine.
Send it to a place to monitor it and station it there with troops with helicopters. Send them out when there is a problem.
I would rather see our military do that than die in iraq.

I live in a rural area and there are lots of illegals here.
How do I know they are illegal ?
They all work jobs on local farms that pay at the end of the day or week in cash only.
There was a local meat company here that got busted for hiring 75% of its workforce that were illegal. My brother got w2 statements for over 15 people in his mailbox.
All with latin names.
He asked about it at the county and was told that illegals often just pick a address out of the phone book for job applications.

And do not say "well they are doing jobs that noone else will do "
Thats a crock as well.
Before the illegals came here, the farms around here hired locally and paid upwards of 8-9.00 per hour. Now they pay 7.00 .
wonder why ?

Go to the local social services office and it is filled with latin women with children.
All receiving food stamps, medical coverage, rental assistance.
None of whom pay any taxes.

It must be nice , go to another country, have all the children you want, and the government will pay you for it without you paying anything.

If you do some research you will see that there is a significant number of illegals in the prison system.

Part of my idea would be to use the non-violent illegal alien offenders to construct a wall something along the lines of the Berlin wall.....much bigger. The cost we are paying to incarcerate them and give them 3 hots and a cot is more over the long haul than it would be to use them for construction and maintenance.

Then, after they are done....dump their asses on the other side with a thank you and slam the doors shut....let Mexico deal with it's own criminals.

The Berlin Wall? yep thats realistic. No politiacian with a sane mind would every propose such an idea. Rick Perry, Texas Govenor and US senator Kay Baily are against the current wall project much less somthing out of the cold war. Mexico is our ally, and trade parter and they add significant value to the National ecnonomy.

Trade between the US and Mexico will only increase.

From Todays Dallas Morning News

Dallas Mayor Tom Leppert invites Mexico's leaders to Dallas

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone
How is a driver's license a privilege? Driving is, but they are doing that anyway, legally or otherwise. At least licensing them offers an opportunity to help track their location and increases the odds they will be insured. I don't see much downside to this.

It also gives them the right and the means to get in a car and drive far, far away from the border, making the problem even more widespread. I personally am getting sick and tired of having to deal with a problem created by the border states for their own greedy needs.

I will say again, how does giving them a license increase their ability to drive? The whole idea just seems ridiculous to me. They're already driving.

Really if everyone would stop seeing this as some privilege they don't deserve instead of what it's actually about they would see it's not that bad of a proposal.

Spitzer had to back down from proposing this b/c people band wagoned against it and raised a ruckus. He claimed it would help NY state's skyrocketing car insurance rates as these "licensed" drivers would now have to get themselves insured.

Push come to shove I really wondered if any illegals would step forward and apply for these licenses anyway. It could easily be a sting.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Farang

Actually many studies have shown illegal immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in social benefits, as they are not eligible for social security, medicare, food stamps, etc. The notion of free handouts to illegal aliens is overblown.

That's funny. Just a couple days ago I read an article that mentioned that the illegals pay little in taxes and consume more than they pay in. The illegals consume taxpayer dollars in the form of education for the children of illegals, emergency room health care, and criminal justice costs. Did I mention that they also put a strain on the nation's infrastructure and environment by increasing the nation's population? (Call it a population explosion cost.)

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone
How is a driver's license a privilege? Driving is, but they are doing that anyway, legally or otherwise. At least licensing them offers an opportunity to help track their location and increases the odds they will be insured. I don't see much downside to this.

It also gives them the right and the means to get in a car and drive far, far away from the border, making the problem even more widespread. I personally am getting sick and tired of having to deal with a problem created by the border states for their own greedy needs.

I will say again, how does giving them a license increase their ability to drive? The whole idea just seems ridiculous to me. They're already driving.

Please don't try to act so naive about this.

As a lawyer would you reccomend to a client that has no drivers license to go ahead and drive whenever and wherever he likes or would you reccomend he not do any driving unless it were absolutely necessary?

How about the fact that since drivers licenses are honored by other states so when one state starts giving an illegal alien a drivers license that means that he/she can drive anywhere oin the country legally.

That a big bunch of BS to me. If you don't like your odds of being in an accident with an illegal alien then get rid of the illegal aliens instead of passing the buck off to the rest of us.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: BoberFett
I'm going to get myself a bunch of licenses and just use a new one every time I get pulled over.

Well if his plan is anything like the plan was in NY state all you will need is a big pile of valid foreign passports. You have those right? Everyone here complaining about this issue knows that at least for NY states plan you needed a valid foreign passport, a document far harder to get and to forge then a US driver's license.... right?

And exactly what percentage of those illegal immigrants picking vegetables and cleaning houses have passports? So who exactly is this program for? The wealthy person who overstayed their visa and doesn't want to get sent back?

Approximately 50% of illegal immigrants are visa overstays, why do you ask?

Whose ass did you pull that figure from? It's highly suspect. Are those people streaming across the Mexican borders skipping the airport and swimming rivers just for fun?

 

[xochi]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Farang

Actually many studies have shown illegal immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in social benefits, as they are not eligible for social security, medicare, food stamps, etc. The notion of free handouts to illegal aliens is overblown.

That's funny. Just a couple days ago I read an article that mentioned that the illegals pay little in taxes and consume more than they pay in. The illegals consume taxpayer dollars in the form of education for the children of illegals, emergency room health care, and criminal justice costs. Did I mention that they also put a strain on the nation's infrastructure and environment by increasing the nation's population? (Call it a population explosion cost.)

Dallas Morning News - Texas ComptrollerOriginally posted by: [/L]

from the article

And when it comes to taxes, illegal immigrants are a boon. They cost the state $1.16 billion in services, such as public health services and education, but they pay $1.58 billion every year in taxes and fees, according to the report, released Thursday.

see post above

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Man, you're right but you're wasting your time. Nothing will convince these people because they think they already know. I've wasted a huge amount of time on threads similar to this one.

The problem is that when you consider all of the costs I mentioned in my last post, it defies reason that they could possibly pay as much in in taxes at their working class wage jobs than they would end up consuming. Also, you need to consider the invisible costs (like population increase).

For that matter, what about the costs of providing for unemployed and underemployed Americans who would otherwise work the jobs that the illegals have taken, especially the formerly-middle class jobs (like construction)? Is it thus possible that many of the consequential costs are masked? Consider the costs of unemployment, food stamps, welfare, education, and health care for displaced Americans and their children.

 

[xochi]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Man, you're right but you're wasting your time. Nothing will convince these people because they think they already know. I've wasted a huge amount of time on threads similar to this one.

The problem is that when you consider all of the costs I mentioned in my last post, it defies reason that they could possibly pay as much in in taxes at their working class wage jobs than they would end up consuming. Also, you need to consider the invisible costs (like population increase).

For that matter, what about the costs of providing for unemployed and underemployed Americans who would otherwise work the jobs that the illegals have taken, especially the formerly-middle class jobs (like construction)? Is it thus possible that many of the consequential costs are masked? Consider the costs of unemployment, food stamps, welfare, education, and health care for displaced Americans and their children.

The US is projected to have more jobs than the current labor force could every provide in the next 10-20 years. Baby boomers have to retire/stop working at some point.

 

[manowar821]

Some of you guys don't understand this issue well enough to be upset about Obama's decision. This would protect US citizens, too. If they hit you while driving with no license, there's not a damn thing you can do or get out of it.

What's more realistic, a massive deportation of over 20 million people, or a program to make them more responsible and liable drivers?

I don't like it, but it's the best idea yet.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Farang


Actually many studies have shown illegal immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in social benefits, as they are not eligible for social security, medicare, food stamps, etc. The notion of free handouts to illegal aliens is overblown.

ok, not elgible eh ?
So when a woman comes here, has children born here, that are now us citizens, but the mother is here illegally , what are you going to do ?

Take the children and put them as wards of the state and ship the mother back to where she came from ?
No.
You give her and the children full medical, food, rent, etc.

So you have now added atleast 2 people to the country that pay absolutely nothing.
If she has other children they are also added to the benefits whether they are illegal or not.

I've seen it here time and time again.

The difference with people here legally is that if the mother has the children, the state goes after the father for support of the children and recovers some of the money. With illegals they recover nothing.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: xochi

The US is projected to have more jobs than the current labor force could every provide in the next 10-20 years. Baby boomers have to retire/stop working at some point.

I remember when the National Science Foundation recklessly predicted (or perhaps even blatantly lied) that we'd have a huge shortfall of scientists. Of course, that never materialized and we ended up with a glut of underemployed science PhDs.

People have been talking about the eagerly anticipated Baby Boomer retirement for decades and it still hasn't materialized and even if it does, our nation's population will have exploded so much that it will barely be felt. I hope I'm wrong on this one, but I'll believe it when I see it. Perhaps some of these jobs that will open up will help fill the large shortfall of jobs that we need for our increasing population? (It's been said that we need about 150,000 new jobs every month to keep pace.)

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: manowar821
Some of you guys don't understand this issue well enough to be upset about Obama's decision. This would protect US citizens, too. If they hit you while driving with no license, there's not a damn thing you can do or get out of it.

What's more realistic, a massive deportation of over 20 million people, or a program to make them more responsible and liable drivers?

I don't like it, but it's the best idea yet.

Think about this.
Your here illegally.
You can drive now without a license for free.
You decide to get a license.
You now have to pay insurance, dmv fees, and your placing your name in a database that can now track you .

What would you do if you were illegal ?

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: xochi


The US is projected to have more jobs than the current labor force could every provide in the next 10-20 years. Baby boomers have to retire/stop working at some point.

Except the jobs that the baby boomers are leaving are not the ones that illegals will be qualified. Most of the baby boomer jobs are not entry level positions.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: manowar821
Some of you guys don't understand this issue well enough to be upset about Obama's decision. This would protect US citizens, too. If they hit you while driving with no license, there's not a damn thing you can do or get out of it.

What's more realistic, a massive deportation of over 20 million people, or a program to make them more responsible and liable drivers?

I don't like it, but it's the best idea yet.

Think about this.
Your here illegally.
You can drive now without a license for free.
You decide to get a license.
You now have to pay insurance, dmv fees, and your placing your name in a database that can now track you .

What would you do if you were illegal ?

It's easier to make them register than it is to make them leave, since they can just come back again.

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: manowar821
Some of you guys don't understand this issue well enough to be upset about Obama's decision. This would protect US citizens, too. If they hit you while driving with no license, there's not a damn thing you can do or get out of it.

What's more realistic, a massive deportation of over 20 million people, or a program to make them more responsible and liable drivers?

I don't like it, but it's the best idea yet.

Think about this.
Your here illegally.
You can drive now without a license for free.
You decide to get a license.
You now have to pay insurance, dmv fees, and your placing your name in a database that can now track you .

What would you do if you were illegal ?

It's easier to make them register than it is to make them leave, since they can just come back again.

not if it is done right.

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: xochi

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Wheezer

You get a few good engineers, some concrete, iron and non-violent criminals serving time and I guarantee you we can build a barrier that will significantly stem the tide of illegals flowing into this country....and it would cost less in the long AND short term to do that than it does to allow them to come in here and suck off our system and pay no taxes.

This is something that has always bothered me about the border problems.
The cost they associate with it and saying its too expensive , etc.
We are the country that did things like the alaska pipeline, the hoover dam, and yet we can't build a fence ?

Really you don't even need a fence.
Just put up cameras every 5000feet.
Yeah its a lot of cameras, but its not a technical issue. London has way more cameras than it would take and they do just fine.
Send it to a place to monitor it and station it there with troops with helicopters. Send them out when there is a problem.
I would rather see our military do that than die in iraq.

I live in a rural area and there are lots of illegals here.
How do I know they are illegal ?
They all work jobs on local farms that pay at the end of the day or week in cash only.
There was a local meat company here that got busted for hiring 75% of its workforce that were illegal. My brother got w2 statements for over 15 people in his mailbox.
All with latin names.
He asked about it at the county and was told that illegals often just pick a address out of the phone book for job applications.

And do not say "well they are doing jobs that noone else will do "
Thats a crock as well.
Before the illegals came here, the farms around here hired locally and paid upwards of 8-9.00 per hour. Now they pay 7.00 .
wonder why ?

Go to the local social services office and it is filled with latin women with children.
All receiving food stamps, medical coverage, rental assistance.
None of whom pay any taxes.

It must be nice , go to another country, have all the children you want, and the government will pay you for it without you paying anything.

If you do some research you will see that there is a significant number of illegals in the prison system.

Part of my idea would be to use the non-violent illegal alien offenders to construct a wall something along the lines of the Berlin wall.....much bigger. The cost we are paying to incarcerate them and give them 3 hots and a cot is more over the long haul than it would be to use them for construction and maintenance.

Then, after they are done....dump their asses on the other side with a thank you and slam the doors shut....let Mexico deal with it's own criminals.

The Berlin Wall? yep thats realistic. No politiacian with a sane mind would every propose such an idea. Rick Perry, Texas Govenor and US senator Kay Baily are against the current wall project much less somthing out of the cold war. Mexico is our ally, and trade parter and they add significant value to the National ecnonomy.

Trade between the US and Mexico will only increase.

From Todays Dallas Morning News

Dallas Mayor Tom Leppert invites Mexico's leaders to Dallas

it doesn't take a sane politician...it takes a politician with some balls.

We have THOUSANDS of non-violent prisoners legal and non just sitting on thier asses doing nothing.

Everyone wants to talk about rehabilitation but in reality they all want ti sit around in circles stroking each other singing kumbaya crying about their feelings.

fvck that.

Put them to work. Rehabilitation means giving them the tools to be productive in society...I would say learning how to pour concrete, weld and other construction jobs would be geared toward that......wouldn't you?

Besides once we get rid of all the illegals in the prison system we save money and cut down on over crowding.

Don't hand me this bullshit it can't be done...we put men on the moon, sent probes to Mars and will probably send people in the near future, we can build bridges that span miles out into the ocean...I think we can build a wall that will further protect our borders.

Let the Mexican stay in Mexico and contribute to their on society.

 

[jhbball]

I hope the Mexicans come in and steal all of your jobs. LOOOOOOOOOOOL.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Whose ass did you pull that figure from? It's highly suspect. Are those people streaming across the Mexican borders skipping the airport and swimming rivers just for fun?

Well the number I quoted was on the high end of the estimate, but it's still somewhere around there. As shown here.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Wheezer
We have THOUSANDS of non-violent prisoners legal and non just sitting on thier asses doing nothing.

Everyone wants to talk about rehabilitation but in reality they all want ti sit around in circles stroking each other singing kumbaya crying about their feelings.

fvck that.

Put them to work. Rehabilitation means giving them the tools to be productive in society...I would say learning how to pour concrete, weld and other construction jobs would be geared toward that......wouldn't you?

The problem with that is it would not be manageable.
Watch some programs like lockdown on msnbc or national geographic where they tour the prisons.

You can't give prisoners anything.
They will adapt it to use to escape or attack other prisoners or guards.
Even the ones that are in for things like dui or shoplifting turn to violence when in prison.
They take simple things like a toothbrush , melt the end of the handle and stick the blade from a disposeable razor in it, making a knife. Or put batteries in socks and sling it as a weapon.

The closest thing to what you describe is the prison in arizona called tent city.
http://www.mcso.org/index.php?...tModule&mn=Sheriff_Bio

Arpaio has over 10,000 inmates in his jail system. In August, 1993, he started the nation?s largest Tent City for convicted inmates. Two thousand convicted men and women serve their sentences in a canvas incarceration compound. It is a remarkable success story that has attracted the attention of government officials, presidential candidates, and media worldwide.

Of equal success and notoriety are his chain gangs, which contribute thousands of dollars of free labor to the community. The male chain gang, and the world?s first-ever female and juvenile chain gangs, clean streets, paint over graffiti, and bury the indigent in the county cemetery.

Also impressive are the Sheriff?s get tough policies. For example, he banned smoking, coffee, movies, pornographic magazines, and unrestricted TV in all jails. He has the cheapest meals in the U.S. too. The average meal costs about 15 cents, and inmates are fed only twice daily, to cut the labor costs of meal delivery. He even stopped serving them salt and pepper to save tax payers $20,000 a year.

Another program Arpaio is very wellknown for is the pink under shorts he makes all inmates wear. Years ago, when the Sheriff learned that inmates were stealing jailhouse white boxers, Arpaio had all inmate underwear dyed pink for better inventory control. The same is true for the Sheriff?s handcuffs. When they started disappearing, he ordered pink handcuffs as a replacement. And later, when the Sheriff learned the calming, psychological effects of the color pink?sheets, towels, socks? everything inmates wear, except for the old-fashioned black and white striped uniform, were dyed pink.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone

I will say again, how does giving them a license increase their ability to drive? The whole idea just seems ridiculous to me. They're already driving.

Please don't try to act so naive about this.

As a lawyer would you reccomend to a client that has no drivers license to go ahead and drive whenever and wherever he likes or would you reccomend he not do any driving unless it were absolutely necessary?

How about the fact that since drivers licenses are honored by other states so when one state starts giving an illegal alien a drivers license that means that he/she can drive anywhere oin the country legally.

That a big bunch of BS to me. If you don't like your odds of being in an accident with an illegal alien then get rid of the illegal aliens instead of passing the buck off to the rest of us.

This is some of the goofiest logic I have ever heard, and in nearly ten years of litigation I thought I'd heard it all.

We are talking about a group of people whose entire status in this country is illegal. Do you seriously believe, as a matter of human nature, that not having drivers licenses is going to affect whether they drive or not? I just find that a bizarre, nonsensical proposition. If we accept that some illegal aliens are going to drive (which I'd submit is clearly the case), what harm will it do to license them?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone

I will say again, how does giving them a license increase their ability to drive? The whole idea just seems ridiculous to me. They're already driving.

Please don't try to act so naive about this.

As a lawyer would you reccomend to a client that has no drivers license to go ahead and drive whenever and wherever he likes or would you reccomend he not do any driving unless it were absolutely necessary?

How about the fact that since drivers licenses are honored by other states so when one state starts giving an illegal alien a drivers license that means that he/she can drive anywhere oin the country legally.

That a big bunch of BS to me. If you don't like your odds of being in an accident with an illegal alien then get rid of the illegal aliens instead of passing the buck off to the rest of us.

This is some of the goofiest logic I have ever heard, and in nearly ten years of litigation I thought I'd heard it all.

We are talking about a group of people whose entire status in this country is illegal. Do you seriously believe, as a matter of human nature, that not having drivers licenses is going to affect whether they drive or not? I just find that a bizarre, nonsensical proposition. If we accept that some illegal aliens are going to drive (which I'd submit is clearly the case), what harm will it do to license them?

I agree, but what then is the point of validating their presence in this country? Either they should be made citizens or sent home. Why the half measures?