Obama wants to grant driver's licenses to illegal immigrants.

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xochi

Senior member
Jan 18, 2000
891
6
81
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: xochi


The US is projected to have more jobs than the current labor force could every provide in the next 10-20 years. Baby boomers have to retire/stop working at some point.

Except the jobs that the baby boomers are leaving are not the ones that illegals will be qualified. Most of the baby boomer jobs are not entry level positions.

True to an extent. The old model of the American workforce was like a pyramid. Plenty of entry level positions at the bottom, but less jobs at mid point and even less at the high end.

The new model (current) is like an hourglass. plenty of entry level positions at the bottom, not as many at the mid level and plenty of high end jobs as at the top.

I've seen the workforce at quite a few manufacturing plants in Texas, many of them are new to the workforce. not saying they are illegal, but some of the workers don?t have a firm grasp of the English language. However, they make good wages and with hard work and a few certs in manufacturing efficiency they could enter the high end of the labor force with ease.

In my opinion, a degree is not worth what it used to be. Universities are slow to produce what employers want. I know of many employers that are collaborating with Americas Community College system to give workers skills that Universities are not providing them. which is practically a tailor made training course for their workforce.


 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Originally posted by: babylon5
Nonsense. Like others pointed out, illegals are paying more in taxes than you. I don't know the exact figure, but each Illegal contribute probably at least thousands of dollars each year. They just give and give.

cough*bullshit*cough

there is an old saying...figures lie and liars figure....if that applies to anything it certainly applies to the notion that illegals pay their fair share of taxes.

Using the same logic that capital punishment costs more than life in prison because of the cost of the appellate process.

You can't take the cost of enforcing a law and use that to prove that it costs less to increase enforcement.
Illegal immigration is not going away. We can either help these people to achieve citizenship and assimilate into our society, as my forefathers did when your forefathers washed ashore (or vice versa, whatever), or you can keep playing the Nationalist bullsh!t crying about the cost of enforcing illegal immigration...

You are right, BUT it can be GREATLY reduced.

This is not the country of your forefathers...I know it gives you a nice warm fuzzy feeling to think that they would greet each and every illegal that snuck across the border, but that is not the case....remember these are the same people that burned people at the stake for being witches.

They would be clammering for those borders to be sealed. as they should.

You get a few good engineers, some concrete, iron and non-violent criminals serving time and I guarantee you we can build a barrier that will significantly stem the tide of illegals flowing into this country....and it would cost less in the long AND short term to do that than it does to allow them to come in here and suck off our system and pay no taxes.

It is not about nationalism...it is about the fact that they are a 19th century mentality sneaking into a 21st century civilization and people like you will want use to dumb ourselves down to accommodate them. Pretty soon you will want to offer them free education just so they can get caught up to our standards.

How long has Mexico been around? Several hundred of years BEFORE this country and they have done what with their system? How many people other than criminals do you see sneaking across the border the other way?

They have had hundreds of years to make their country as good as this one and have failed....so then, what make you think they will contribute to this nation if they won't even build their own?

Ok, now your argument makes no sense. You say that illegal immigrants can't pay for themselves because of the cost of enforcing illegal immigration, but we can solve that problem by increasing enforcement?
Sorry, you're not living in reality.

And also, the US is an older country than Mexico. You might want to brush up on your history. So don't talk to me about dumbing down when you're obviously so stupid. It's too bad your immigrant ancestors weren't deported.

But yes, there is an issue as to WHY these Mexicans want to come here rather than live there. Obviously, there is something wrong with Mexico. But that's their concern, not ours.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,987
1
0
Originally posted by: FoBoT
this is a calculated move on his part to get Latino voters in CA primary

he can take that position knowing that Congress won't be able to pass such legislation, so it won't be his fault he couldn't keep that "campaign promise"

Sounds about right.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
Originally posted by: DLeRium
Pathetic. This whole driver's license debate really just shifts the focus away from the problem of illegal immigration. We're not longer noticing that they violated the law big time by sneaking into our country, and we're turning this into a human rights issue. This is ridiculous. Come on. Deport them already.

And how do you propose to do that? Massive police sweeps? Manhunts? Concentration camps? How do we make sure we don't accidentally sweep up some legals in the mix? Or do we just deport everyone with brown skin who habla espanol and whose last name sounds Hispanic?

Oh wait, this is ridiculous. You have all the answers. We should all see how easy this is from the comfort of armchairs...

:roll:
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
In the grand scheme of things....this issue ranks about 345th on my list of priorities of things that need to be addressed to get America back on the right track.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,382
7,446
136
Originally posted by: Vic
Oh wait, this is ridiculous. You have all the answers. We should all see how easy this is from the comfort of armchairs...

:roll:

So we're not legitimate unless we form our own militia to go out and start rounding them up ourselves? Not a bad idea really, considering the government shall never enforce its own law.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,333
6,040
126
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
It fascinates me, the simple minded, I mean, how some folk honestly see only black and white. Somewhere in the 50's I think, we got color television.

I find it equally fascinating that you with all of your intellectual capacity cannot play Devil's Advocate and have failed to think of any of negative consequences and costs of illegal immigration. It's as though feelings of altruism have overwhelmed your willingness to examine the issue rationally.

To be concerned for the welfare of the illegal aliens might imply a lack of concern for the welfare of the nation's environment...or the welfare of lower class Americans. What about the well-being of those people?

I think you aren't getting the point. We have millions of illegals in this country. Millions of people who are illegal is a huge problem in my opinion. There is damage in every direction. I am simply looking at what is and what will be and pointing out that the absolutists on the issue are nut cases who are so emotionally wrapped up in the issue they can't see their noses. I am saying the nut case solutions they propose are never going to happen, that the politicians will turn the other way. There is no answer that won't lose votes. Bush proposed a reasonable solution and the nut case absolutists shot it down. Reasonable politicians will shoot down any solution the nut cases come up with. The status quo is where we're going to stay until the nut-cases let go of their vines and come down from the trees. Issuing drivers licenses is part of a rational approach to the problem but it drives the nut cases bonkers. As I said, you can't make any statement on this issue that doesn't cost votes.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Vic
Oh wait, this is ridiculous. You have all the answers. We should all see how easy this is from the comfort of armchairs...

:roll:

So we're not legitimate unless we form our own militia to go out and start rounding them up ourselves? Not a bad idea really, considering the government shall never enforce its own law.

Maybe that's because the law is flawed, and has its origins in bigoted nationalism.

If we removed the immigration quotas and streamlined the citizenship process, we could better control who immigrates to our country. As our system is now, we encourage the criminals to come here by treating them all, good and bad, as criminals.
It's a stupid system from a stupid time in our history, just like the stupid Drug War. It's bad enough we're always wanting to bell the cat, I'm surprised we've never voted to repeal the laws of nature too.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,333
6,040
126
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Vic
Oh wait, this is ridiculous. You have all the answers. We should all see how easy this is from the comfort of armchairs...

:roll:

So we're not legitimate unless we form our own militia to go out and start rounding them up ourselves? Not a bad idea really, considering the government shall never enforce its own law.

He says from his arm chair.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,333
6,040
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Vic
Oh wait, this is ridiculous. You have all the answers. We should all see how easy this is from the comfort of armchairs...

:roll:

So we're not legitimate unless we form our own militia to go out and start rounding them up ourselves? Not a bad idea really, considering the government shall never enforce its own law.

Maybe that's because the law is flawed, and has its origins in bigoted nationalism.

If we removed the immigration quotas and streamlined the citizenship process, we could better control who immigrates to our country. As our system is now, we encourage the criminals to come here by treating them all, good and bad, as criminals.
It's a stupid system from a stupid time in our history, just like the stupid Drug War. It's bad enough we're always wanting to bell the cat, I'm surprised we've never voted to repeal the laws of nature too.

It's just like Iraq. Once you go down some roads there's no easy way back and all the complaining in the world won't change a thing.
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
81
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: Wheezer
We have THOUSANDS of non-violent prisoners legal and non just sitting on thier asses doing nothing.

Everyone wants to talk about rehabilitation but in reality they all want ti sit around in circles stroking each other singing kumbaya crying about their feelings.

fvck that.

Put them to work. Rehabilitation means giving them the tools to be productive in society...I would say learning how to pour concrete, weld and other construction jobs would be geared toward that......wouldn't you?

The problem with that is it would not be manageable.
Watch some programs like lockdown on msnbc or national geographic where they tour the prisons.

You can't give prisoners anything.
They will adapt it to use to escape or attack other prisoners or guards.
Even the ones that are in for things like dui or shoplifting turn to violence when in prison.
They take simple things like a toothbrush , melt the end of the handle and stick the blade from a disposeable razor in it, making a knife. Or put batteries in socks and sling it as a weapon.

The closest thing to what you describe is the prison in arizona called tent city.
http://www.mcso.org/index.php?...tModule&mn=Sheriff_Bio

Arpaio has over 10,000 inmates in his jail system. In August, 1993, he started the nation?s largest Tent City for convicted inmates. Two thousand convicted men and women serve their sentences in a canvas incarceration compound. It is a remarkable success story that has attracted the attention of government officials, presidential candidates, and media worldwide.

Of equal success and notoriety are his chain gangs, which contribute thousands of dollars of free labor to the community. The male chain gang, and the world?s first-ever female and juvenile chain gangs, clean streets, paint over graffiti, and bury the indigent in the county cemetery.

Also impressive are the Sheriff?s get tough policies. For example, he banned smoking, coffee, movies, pornographic magazines, and unrestricted TV in all jails. He has the cheapest meals in the U.S. too. The average meal costs about 15 cents, and inmates are fed only twice daily, to cut the labor costs of meal delivery. He even stopped serving them salt and pepper to save tax payers $20,000 a year.

Another program Arpaio is very wellknown for is the pink under shorts he makes all inmates wear. Years ago, when the Sheriff learned that inmates were stealing jailhouse white boxers, Arpaio had all inmate underwear dyed pink for better inventory control. The same is true for the Sheriff?s handcuffs. When they started disappearing, he ordered pink handcuffs as a replacement. And later, when the Sheriff learned the calming, psychological effects of the color pink?sheets, towels, socks? everything inmates wear, except for the old-fashioned black and white striped uniform, were dyed pink.

...and the problem with implementing something like this on a grander scale is what again?

the only thing holding it back is someone or some people with the balls to actually go forward with it.


 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Ok, offering drivers licenses bad...doesn't McCain want to offer them citizenship?
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Originally posted by: babylon5
Nonsense. Like others pointed out, illegals are paying more in taxes than you. I don't know the exact figure, but each Illegal contribute probably at least thousands of dollars each year. They just give and give.

cough*bullshit*cough

there is an old saying...figures lie and liars figure....if that applies to anything it certainly applies to the notion that illegals pay their fair share of taxes.

Using the same logic that capital punishment costs more than life in prison because of the cost of the appellate process.

You can't take the cost of enforcing a law and use that to prove that it costs less to increase enforcement.
Illegal immigration is not going away. We can either help these people to achieve citizenship and assimilate into our society, as my forefathers did when your forefathers washed ashore (or vice versa, whatever), or you can keep playing the Nationalist bullsh!t crying about the cost of enforcing illegal immigration...

You are right, BUT it can be GREATLY reduced.

This is not the country of your forefathers...I know it gives you a nice warm fuzzy feeling to think that they would greet each and every illegal that snuck across the border, but that is not the case....remember these are the same people that burned people at the stake for being witches.

They would be clammering for those borders to be sealed. as they should.

You get a few good engineers, some concrete, iron and non-violent criminals serving time and I guarantee you we can build a barrier that will significantly stem the tide of illegals flowing into this country....and it would cost less in the long AND short term to do that than it does to allow them to come in here and suck off our system and pay no taxes.

It is not about nationalism...it is about the fact that they are a 19th century mentality sneaking into a 21st century civilization and people like you will want use to dumb ourselves down to accommodate them. Pretty soon you will want to offer them free education just so they can get caught up to our standards.

How long has Mexico been around? Several hundred of years BEFORE this country and they have done what with their system? How many people other than criminals do you see sneaking across the border the other way?

They have had hundreds of years to make their country as good as this one and have failed....so then, what make you think they will contribute to this nation if they won't even build their own?

Ok, now your argument makes no sense. You say that illegal immigrants can't pay for themselves because of the cost of enforcing illegal immigration, but we can solve that problem by increasing enforcement?
Sorry, you're not living in reality.

And also, the US is an older country than Mexico. You might want to brush up on your history. So don't talk to me about dumbing down when you're obviously so stupid. It's too bad your immigrant ancestors weren't deported.

But yes, there is an issue as to WHY these Mexicans want to come here rather than live there. Obviously, there is something wrong with Mexico. But that's their concern, not ours.



Ok first of all I think YOU need a history lesson...Mexican independence was granted in 1821 yes...but the country itself and the people have been around how long again?

All that means is that Spain let them go from its governing...it does not mean that they did not exist prior to that, which they did (pssst...Aztecs anyone?)

Perhaps if they had worked as hard at fighting off the Spanish as they do forming gangs like MS3 and sneaking into this country they might have been more successful and had that independence sooner.

The fact is, it has been a backasswards country for a LONG long time and for whatever reason the people have not sought to improve it the way this country has over its short history.....not our problem.

So what is easier...the right way to stay and work to develop your own country to a higher standard?

Or

sneak over to your neighbors at night and mooch off them.

My argument makes perfect sense if you were not so blinded by they fact you think all illegal immigrants from Mexico are poor innocent dirt farmers just trying to get a leg up in life.

Take off the blinders and look at the reality.

1. There are THOUSANDS of non violent criminals sitting in prison.

2. many of them are illegal.

3. put them to work so they build a barrier wall.

4. when they are done...put them on the opposite side and let Mexico deal with them as they should.

w...t...f... is so hard about comprehending that?
 

Coldkilla

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2004
3,944
0
71
Illegals still drive, against the law or not, they get into accidents, and then we foot the bill.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
76
Driver licenses for some, free minature American flags for everybody!

Dumb question, but does anyone actually think a wall is going to stop people from getting into the United States?

I mean, I don't think it still works for China.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone

I will say again, how does giving them a license increase their ability to drive? The whole idea just seems ridiculous to me. They're already driving.

Please don't try to act so naive about this.

As a lawyer would you reccomend to a client that has no drivers license to go ahead and drive whenever and wherever he likes or would you reccomend he not do any driving unless it were absolutely necessary?

How about the fact that since drivers licenses are honored by other states so when one state starts giving an illegal alien a drivers license that means that he/she can drive anywhere oin the country legally.

That a big bunch of BS to me. If you don't like your odds of being in an accident with an illegal alien then get rid of the illegal aliens instead of passing the buck off to the rest of us.

This is some of the goofiest logic I have ever heard, and in nearly ten years of litigation I thought I'd heard it all.

We are talking about a group of people whose entire status in this country is illegal. Do you seriously believe, as a matter of human nature, that not having drivers licenses is going to affect whether they drive or not? I just find that a bizarre, nonsensical proposition. If we accep that some illegal aliens are going to drive (which I'd submit is clearly the case), what harm will it do to license them?

LOL, I can sure tell I'm talking to a lawyer, you didn't address my question except to attack the messenger and try and turn it back on me with another question

For starters I don't accept that they should drive and if we catch them driving then we should deport them. It doesn't surprise me that they do, because they obviously don't care about our laws unless it's THEIR rights being violated. It's just that simple. Granting them a drivers license is giving them the nod and wink that it's OK with us if they're here. Well maybe it's OK with you, but it's sure as hell not OK with me.

Allowing them to have DL's will accomplish nothing except to encourage more of them to come here. Look how well the last amnesty worked. You want to support measures to make their lives easier? Fine, that's your perogative but don't try and tell me giving them a DL is for MY benifit. I have uninsured and underinsured motorist on my insurance that will cover my car repair/medical expenses in the event of an accident.

If other states have so many illegals that they want to give them a DL that's their problem, don't try and make it mine. I don't want them here unless they have been properly screened and then I think we need to get as many of the best, smartest, most educated first. It's bad enough we let the rich and privledged of this country outsource all the work they can. I'll be go to hell if I sit idly by and let them bring in cheap illegal help to do the jobs that can't be outsourced. Anybody who disagrees with that is obviously only concerned about what's best for themselves and not the country as a whole.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
For starters I don't accept that they should drive and if we catch them driving then we should deport them. It doesn't surprise me that they do, because they obviously don't care about our laws unless it's THEIR rights being violated.

I hear this all the time and it's just crap. They ignore immigration law, not every law on the books. They weigh the cost/benefit of violating the immigration law and decide that coming here and risking the wrath of the law is better than living in Mexico. They don't come over here to become criminals, though of course there's a few bad eggs in every population, they come over here to work.

Are people who smoke pot people who "obviously don't care about our laws", or are they simply people who don't care about one particular law?
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
Originally posted by: sirjonk
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
For starters I don't accept that they should drive and if we catch them driving then we should deport them. It doesn't surprise me that they do, because they obviously don't care about our laws unless it's THEIR rights being violated.

I hear this all the time and it's just crap. They ignore immigration law, not every law on the books. They weigh the cost/benefit of violating the immigration law and decide that coming here and risking the wrath of the law is better than living in Mexico. They don't come over here to become criminals, though of course there's a few bad eggs in every population, they come over here to work.

Are people who smoke pot people who "obviously don't care about our laws", or are they simply people who don't care about one particular law?

What "wrath" is that? You must mean amnesty? The truth is these people think we're stupid.... and I'm begining to think they're right.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
Originally posted by: Wheezer

...and the problem with implementing something like this on a grander scale is what again?

the only thing holding it back is someone or some people with the balls to actually go forward with it.

The problem would be management.
Giving prisoners access to lots of different tools in a large scale would require a guard for every single prisoner that didn't take his eye off that prisoner.
That or they would have to strip naked every prisoner at the end of each day and inspect them one by one.

When they do the chain gang at that prison they limit severely what the prisoners can access. Mainly the worst thing they have access to is shovels.

It works for small things, but large scale would be very hard to control.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: Vic
Drivers licenses are issued by the states, so I see this as an irrelevant point in a Presidential election. As far as my position goes, I'd rather we remove the immigration quotas and streamline the process for citizenship.

:thumbsup: Amen and beware - rant coming...

IMO many of those who complain about illegal immigration don't know much about immigration period. I recently had to get educated on immigration because (gasp) I married a non-US citizen and found it is a royal pain in the ass dealing with the USCIS. Depending on the country involved and assuming things go smoothly it's about a 6 month wait for the typical K-1 or K-3 (marriage visas) interview and double that for a CR-1 visa. If that goes smooth it's another 6 months or so for the adjustment of status interview (not required with a CR-1 but it's about 2x the wait so no time saved). Then about 2 years to wait until removing conditions and another year or so after that to apply for naturalization (citizenship).

Also keep in mind if anything goes wrong - and it does - during any of these processes you can't just pickup the phone and call the USCIS or US embassy in the foreign country and ask what's going on. There is *zero* direct contact with USCIS without requesting an InfoPass interview and only certain conditions qualify (you have to be way out of the very liberal waiting periods). You're pretty much a mushroom during the process because status updates are infrequent and not always correct.

On top of that the legal immigration fees just about doubled across the board. We got in just before the fees went up but it still wasn't cheap. Right now it is a $1010 fee to ask the US government permission to legally bring my wife here to live with me. Then there's another $500 or so for adjusting status (getting a 2 year green card). Then there's another $545 fee to remove conditions and get a 10 year green card. Then another $675 fee after that should she decide to become a US citizen. In total that's over $2700 and 3+ years of waiting. Is it any wonder people use the illegal route?

I'll get off my soapbox now... ;)
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
66
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Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone

I will say again, how does giving them a license increase their ability to drive? The whole idea just seems ridiculous to me. They're already driving.

Please don't try to act so naive about this.

As a lawyer would you reccomend to a client that has no drivers license to go ahead and drive whenever and wherever he likes or would you reccomend he not do any driving unless it were absolutely necessary?

How about the fact that since drivers licenses are honored by other states so when one state starts giving an illegal alien a drivers license that means that he/she can drive anywhere oin the country legally.

That a big bunch of BS to me. If you don't like your odds of being in an accident with an illegal alien then get rid of the illegal aliens instead of passing the buck off to the rest of us.

This is some of the goofiest logic I have ever heard, and in nearly ten years of litigation I thought I'd heard it all.

We are talking about a group of people whose entire status in this country is illegal. Do you seriously believe, as a matter of human nature, that not having drivers licenses is going to affect whether they drive or not? I just find that a bizarre, nonsensical proposition. If we accep that some illegal aliens are going to drive (which I'd submit is clearly the case), what harm will it do to license them?

LOL, I can sure tell I'm talking to a lawyer, you didn't address my question except to attack the messenger and try and turn it back on me with another question

For starters I don't accept that they should drive and if we catch them driving then we should deport them. It doesn't surprise me that they do, because they obviously don't care about our laws unless it's THEIR rights being violated. It's just that simple. Granting them a drivers license is giving them the nod and wink that it's OK with us if they're here. Well maybe it's OK with you, but it's sure as hell not OK with me.

Allowing them to have DL's will accomplish nothing except to encourage more of them to come here. Look how well the last amnesty worked. You want to support measures to make their lives easier? Fine, that's your perogative but don't try and tell me giving them a DL is for MY benifit. I have uninsured and underinsured motorist on my insurance that will cover my car repair/medical expenses in the event of an accident.

If other states have so many illegals that they want to give them a DL that's their problem, don't try and make it mine. I don't want them here unless they have been properly screened and then I think we need to get as many of the best, smartest, most educated first. It's bad enough we let the rich and privledged of this country outsource all the work they can. I'll be go to hell if I sit idly by and let them bring in cheap illegal help to do the jobs that can't be outsourced. Anybody who disagrees with that is obviously only concerned about what's best for themselves and not the country as a whole.

Your first question is stupid. A lawyer cannot legally counsel a client to break the law - I would tell a client in that situation not to drive, ever, and explain to him the potential penalties if he were caught. I certainly wouldn't tell him to break the law a little bit rather than a lot.

I don't see the relevance of the question anyway - we are talking about people with no legal status, and who certainly are not generally asking for legal advice about whether or not to drive. I fail to see how issuing drivers licenses encourages anyone to come here illegally when it doesn't impart any legal immigration status.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
You fail to see that's it's easier to get a job when you have a legal DL's then it is without one??