How about this idea for legislating people out of poverty: make it illegal to be homeless or jobless! Then everyone would get jobs hehe.
Yup. Minimum wage is, generally speaking, a lose-lose proposition. Either wages are already above the minimum and it has no effect, or they're below the minimum and the least skilled get priced out of the market entirely, inflation goes up, unemployment rises, etc.
Throckmorton
Lifer
- Aug 23, 2007
- 16,829
- 3
- 0
The $3 an hour is a slim markup. I work for about $20 an hour including benefits, and my employer charges clients $50-100 per hour. Unless my wage was mandated to be that $100, my employer would be stupid to fire me, because they'd lose revenue.
I don't know what the amounts would be for most minimum wage jobs.
Then why don't you start your own company, employ your workers for $25/hr and charge clients $45-95?
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: chess9
"I am writing to request data for research I am conducting in conjunction with The Employment Policies Institute, a restaurant supported lobbying and research organization."
When someone goes to this length to debunk CK, you had to believe they were going to find a way to twist the data set. What did CK have to say about this 'research'?
But, thanks for the study. At least you have an informed opinion, unlike almost everyone else here.
-Robert
their statistical method was the same as card-krueger.
the only difference is that they used payroll data rather than calling the restaurant and asking, 'how many full and part time employees, excluding managers, do you have?' surely you can see the problems in asking that question without any further explanation of what data is wanted. but that's how card-krueger did it.
card-krueger reply. this reply uses BLS statistics reported for unemployment insurance purposes. i don't like how big their data collection area is. NE NJ is basically an NYC suburb and tied very much to economic performance in NYC. i'd be more interested in areas bordering PA than newark.
a possible explanation for the results seen
Well, at best, I'd say the only conclusion one could reasonably draw is that raising the minimum wage has an unknown impact on hours worked and employment rates in the fast food industry in New Jersey and Pennsylvania during the times studied. Furthermore, as the author of the first cited study noted, several other studies have confirmed CK's 1992 study and their followup study, or, are consistent with their findings. Other studies have reached contrary conclusions. All of which suggests to the layman reading such dense prose that statistics may be used to prove anything-certainly not a thunderbolt conclusion.
This appears to be a war between economic fundies and the more leftist wing of the economics establishment, unless there are confounding variables that neither side has adequately considered. So, one will reach the conclusions one finds most palatable. Thus the conclusion reached by the study funded by the restaurant lobby. I don't know what biases CK have, but I assume plenty of E-Fundies think they have them.
-Robert
mugs
Lifer
- Apr 29, 2003
- 48,920
- 46
- 91
My father used to own a convenience store. I don't know how much he made, but I'd guess around 75k/yr. Every day there were three shifts - two with two employees, one with one employee. 40 total hours per day, 365 days per year. To pay each an extra $3 an hour would have cost him $43,800 per year. He might as well sell the store and get a job himself. It'd only cost 10 people their jobs.
That is, if he paid his employees minimum wage, which he never did. Even at a convenience store everyone made above minimum wage. I'll say it again - if you're an adult making minimum wage, and you're not mentally handicapped, it's your own damn fault. In the 25 years my dad owned that convenience store I saw a lot of people come and go, and a lot of people stay for a loooong time. The thing they had in common was lack of ambition. They could get better jobs, but they'd have to work harder.
I have recently read an interesting theory by Thomas Sowell, the theory may not be of his own making but it was in his book.
The basics of it are this, the minimum wage increase will increase the number of workers willing to do a job, to the point where there is an excess of workers if the minimum wage is over the natural equilibrium wage for that job. That is the basic no-duh stuff, but the second part makes it more interesting. Employers who have a preference for a certain subset of the population, in this case race, will have a larger pool of qualified candidates and will be able to discriminate more without natural consequences.
The result, if he is right, is that an increase in the minimum wage will allow employers to discriminate more with less reprecussions and therefore increase the racial gap of employment in low wage jobs.
I think this theory has merit, it may be completely counteracted by other things, but I think that within 2 years of a minimum wage increase we will see a jump in the difference of unemployment between low skilled minorities and low skilled white workers.
I have no proof, and personally I think we should let the democrats try it and see what happens.
The basics of it are this, the minimum wage increase will increase the number of workers willing to do a job, to the point where there is an excess of workers if the minimum wage is over the natural equilibrium wage for that job. That is the basic no-duh stuff, but the second part makes it more interesting. Employers who have a preference for a certain subset of the population, in this case race, will have a larger pool of qualified candidates and will be able to discriminate more without natural consequences.
The result, if he is right, is that an increase in the minimum wage will allow employers to discriminate more with less reprecussions and therefore increase the racial gap of employment in low wage jobs.
I think this theory has merit, it may be completely counteracted by other things, but I think that within 2 years of a minimum wage increase we will see a jump in the difference of unemployment between low skilled minorities and low skilled white workers.
I have no proof, and personally I think we should let the democrats try it and see what happens.
This isn't theory at all - this is precisely what happened during the Great Depression. Blacks had a helluva time getting work because of mass unionization. Minimum wage laws "price" the least skilled workers out of the market and open the doors to gross discrimination.
So what you read is dead-on accurate, and there is historical precedent to prove it.
i call shens on all the prediction of 'gloom and doom' with a minimum wage. In BC, Canada, we have the highest min wage $8/hr across the country (every province has a different min wage). And for the last 4 years, our economy has gone super hot and there isn't enough labour to fill these jobs. So, please stop the "omg, we're fucked' talk regarding having a minimum wage.
If what I wrote doesnt make sense to you let me know. I can write it more simple terms for you, and even make a drawing in something you may understand better, crayon.
Point #1 - I don't believe I've ever commented on bc.
Point #2 - Calling me a conservative is about as silly as you can get.
Point #3 - Rather the actual impact of MW increases has had a statistical impact, the theory of it (ie the government exerts that much control on the economy, and that much control over businesses/people) is abhorrent to me.
Point #4 - I also understand the the argument about pricing out smaller businesses, but even though I can see the logic of it it's not the focus of my objections.
It has a big benefit for the poor, anda negligible negative impact on those not poor. It helps the economy and the middle class as well.
Read some facts, then post. There are decades of research in studies showing that the wages at that level are such a small part of the economy, the inflationary effect is negligible, and the increase, because poor people spend all their income, has benefits to the economy as well.
Basically, there's the truth, summarized in my post, and there are myths put out to attack minimum wage increases because the owners can't get cheap enough labor.
Democrats apply the concept of "ceteris paribus" to everything they analyze. They are foolish enough to believe they can control things and that people's behavior does not change when conditions change. It amazes me that they always think that they can simply raise taxes on those doing well and rake in tons of cash when the minute they do people like me change our business plans to make sure we keep as much of our money as possible. Unfortunately Democrats are either blind or evil since they always hurt the people they claim to be trying to help the most. EVERYONE is tax averse you idiots. I guess no Democrat ever studied or maybe they just failed to understand the wage-price spiral effect.
Haha no there aren't. I hear this line all the time from you and democrats alike: "There are decades of research" "It's been proven over and over again and if you're too stupid to find it then it's hopeless" etc. etc.
Democrats are the worse arguers ever, they never source anything, just make more ridiculous claims.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 21K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter