Obama to indefinitely imprison detainees without charges

[Zebo]

I'd like recommend a new book out by Marc Thiessen, a senior Bush speechwriter that had virtually unrestricted access to CIA enhanced interrogation methodology and results.

Thiessen would not have been able to publish the information he does without the Obama Administration's recent de-classification of information pertaining to the intelligence effort against terrorism. But the damage is done and Thiessen uses the opportunity to document the effort and results.

Well researched and well written, it is a must read for anyone trying to understand exactly what was done, why it was done, the legal and moral justification and what resulted.


Courting Disaster: How the CIA Kept America Safe and How Barack Obama Is Inviting the Next Attack
by Marc Thiessen

http://www.amazon.com/Courting-Disas.../dp/1596986034

Every operator knows torture works. Won't comment on things like SERE. But just think back to wailing on little brothers head until he told you where pron mags were. But here is some real proof. It's only cream puff political generals and nutty psychologists who say otherwise- ie. those with zero practical experiance.

"It was like flipping a switch"
http://in.ibtimes.com/articles/20071212/waterboarding-torture-cia-al-qaeda.htm

"3 Suspects Talk After Iraqi Soldiers Do Dirty Work"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/world/middleeast/22detain.html

 

[Zebo]

America. Fuck yeah.

 

[PJABBER]

Elected officials have only one responsibility, and that is to Govern. Govern means a lot of things, but ocassionally you have exceptional governors.

Reagan is the first and only I can think of.

Bush, is generally forgettable.

-John

That's only because you are still alive and well and not worrying about an attack anytime soon.

I was working at the corner of Wall Street and Broadway overlooking Trinity Church when these scumbags hit the WTC the first time in 1993. Six people dead, 1,042 injured. I still vividly remember looking down on the people that evacuated walking down the street, some choking from the smoke they had inhaled.

Though I was working in Japan by then, I lost both friends and business associates the next time they hit on 9/11. I can't forget the images of people jumping from the towers before they collapsed. Maybe you can.

The first responsibility of the government, in my oh so humble opinion, is to protect its citizens. The systems were not in place to prevent these "man caused disasters" then, but everything I know now tells me that Bush did what had to be done to prevent a recurrence. As he was charged to do. And that makes him unforgettable to me.

I really don't care if scumbag terrorists are shot on the spot, locked up for life or thrown from the highest building in the country. Before doing so I do see the utility of getting the information needed to track down their buddies as expeditiously as possible and by whatever means available. After that, as far as I am concerned, they are worthless garbage.

But, that's just me.

 

[Vic]

So if the answer is that this conflict will never end, then I suggest holding the war crimes trials now.

 

[PJABBER]

So if the answer is that this conflict will never end, then I suggest holding the war crimes trials now.

Conflict ends with capitulation or exhaustion. Neither are in the works.

Who should we try first? Those who did something or those who didn't? I vote we do those who didn't first.

This particular conflict has been going on and off for thousands of years and will likely continue long after we are dead. Deal with it. The guy that is looking to saw off your infidel head does.

 

[Zebo]

I really don't care if scumbag terrorists are shot on the spot, locked up for life or thrown from the highest building in the country. Before doing so I do see the utility of getting the information needed to track down their buddies as expeditiously as possible and by whatever means available. After that, as far as I am concerned, they are worthless garbage.

But, that's just me.

Just curious how you know they are terrorists? Are you okay with trusting the government? Where do you draw line? Anyone? Just foreign combatants? Or even Americans? It's a very dangerous road we are treading IMO. Course until they start rounding up US citizens I'm not very concerned and inclined to trust the internal checks and balances.

 

[Vic]

Conflict ends with capitulation or exhaustion. Neither are in the works.

Who should we try first? Those who did something or those who didn't? I vote we do those who didn't first.

This particular conflict has been going on and off for thousands of years and will likely continue long after we are dead. Deal with it. The guy that is looking to saw off your infidel head does.

Deal with what? Your irrational fear seeking to manipulate my emotions? Sorry, bud, no sale.

You're hilarious. The only 'infidel' trying to saw off any American's head is you and your paranoid ilk panicking in fear of this ancient phantom menace.

 

[Vic]

Just curious how you know they are terrorists? Are you okay with trusting the government? Where do you draw line? Anyone? Just foreign combatants? Or even Americans? It's a very dangerous road we are treading IMO. Course until they start rounding up US citizens I'm not very concerned and inclined to trust the internal checks and balances.

PJABBER trusts our govt implicitly and prays to it for his deliverance from these terrible infidels from far off lands. Fear drives him.

 

[Zebo]

3000+ dead not enough huh? Maybe a nuke set off would convince you... Vic you won't know a threat until your head is being removed from your body. Course you are probably a coreligionist so will be granted some quarter so long as you pay the jizya tax. I'm not so lucky and will fight these retrograde pricks until they evolve.

 

[Zorkorist]

Deal with what? Your irrational fear seeking to manipulate my emotions? Sorry, bud, no sale.

You're hilarious. The only 'infidel' trying to saw off any American's head is you and your paranoid ilk panicking in fear of this ancient phantom menace.

What in the world are you talking about, Vic?

PJabber just posted how he was blocks away from the first world center terrorist attack. and you accuse him of irrational fears?

-John

 

[Vic]

3000+ dead not enough huh? Maybe a nuke set off would convince you... Vic you won't know a threat until your head is being removed from your body. Course you are probably a coreligionist so will be granted some quarter so long as you pay the jizya tax. I'm not so lucky and will fight these retrograde pricks until they evolve.

LOL. You're still fighting a war that's been over for years (oh.. and we won).

 

[Vic]

What in the world are you talking about, Vic?

PJabber just posted how he was blocks away from the first world center terrorist attack. and you accuse him of irrational fears?

-John

Ah... the terrible plight of sheltered lives...

 

[Vic]

Heh... I love this stuff... on the issue of imprisoning detainess without charges, the OP is (rightfully) horrified of the potential govt abuses, but mention the threat of Islam, and it's OMG 9/11 and run to mama gubment's apron strings for protection. The transparency of the disconnect is only rivaled by its opacity to the disconnected.

 

[Zorkorist]

Well, there's one thing you should know, Vic.

American men fight for peaceful, "sheltered" lives. This isn't some big game... it's why America went to war with Afghanistan and Iraq.

Laugh, or, whatever you do...

-John

 

[Vic]

Well, there's one thing you should know, Vic.

American men fight for peaceful, "sheltered" lives. This isn't some big game... it's why America went to war with Afghanistan and Iraq.

Laugh, or, whatever you do...

-John

Why? Did Afghanistan and Iraq attack us?

 

[GaryJohnson]

What in the world are you talking about, Vic?

PJabber just posted how he was blocks away from the first world center terrorist attack. and you accuse him of irrational fears?

-John

All fear is irrational. Risk aversion is rational. There are greater things at risk here than our lives. We could raze every inch of the planet that's outside our borders. That would certainly protect us from foreign threats. But a rational person would also realize that there's no difference between a foreign threat and a domestic one.

Your neighbor might kill you in your sleep tonight, should you kill him now before he gets the chance?

 

[Vic]

All fear is irrational. Risk aversion is rational. There are greater things at risk here than our lives. We could raze every inch of the planet that's outside our borders. That would certainly protect us from foreign threats. But a rational person would also realize that there's no difference between a foreign threat and a domestic one.

Your neighbor might kill you in your sleep tonight, should you kill him now before he gets the chance?

Bingo.

 

[Zebo]

Iraq was a huge fuckin mistake Zork - Not to mention cost - Instead of a largely secular regime who allowed other secs and alternative lifestyles we have turned it into a fundi regime with sharia law. I agree with what vic seems to be implying about doing it on the down low with hit squads special forces, etc - where I diverge is what should be done with those captured. They need to be mined by whatever means available including torture and draw line domestically.

 

[PJABBER]

Just curious how you know they are terrorists? Are you okay with trusting the government? Where do you draw line? Anyone? Just foreign combatants? Or even Americans? It's a very dangerous road we are treading IMO. Course until they start rounding up US citizens I'm not very concerned and inclined to trust the internal checks and balances.

Well now, you are splitting hairs aren't you? No one is talking about random killing, are they? Let's be sure, of course. Take all the time necessary to get required information.

Until a couple of years ago, there was a pretty good plan for prosecuting terrorists and those pesky non-state combatants using military tribunals. And it would not be too much of a stretch to impose mandatory life or death sentences upon conviction.

I am inclined to go the military tribunal route for all those foreign terrorists who get so far as to be charged. Good lawyers like Tom Cruise and Kevin Bacon and, my personal favorite, Catherine Bell, can square off. The revolution will not be televised, folks, but court records will be kept.

Americans citizens get to choose Door #2 and due process in a special federal civilian court designated for crimes of mass destruction, assassinations, etc., all standard protections apply. However, no Mirandizing until they get "debriefed" to the fullest extent possible. Take all the time you need.

If you renounced your American citizenship in pursuing this new career, or went overseas to kill, kill, kill, well, you get to go through Door #1 as I don't think you really qualify to be tried as an American.

Let's look at our little buddy Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab. Anyone doubt he tried to kill a couple of hundred people and was hoping for a few thousand more?

He gets wicked crotch burns for his effort and wins an extended session with professional interrogators! Once they get everything useful out of him, give him his Miranda warning, an ACLU lawyer, a trial (we won't use any involuntary testimony) and then a choice of life at the local SuperMax or a chance to show us how well he can fly from an airplace at 10,000 feet over Lake Michigan. Sorry Umar! All out of parachutes for convicted terrorists!

How about our fat buddy KSM? One bad boy there. And smart. Yessiree. I would be inclined to give him an extra special long time to tell us everything he knows. Then Door #1. The hard part will be deciding what reward to give him after the trial. Suggestions from victims' families are welcome.

 

[Zorkorist]

Fear can't be irrational, as it is just a thought, or emotion.

That's like saying blue jelly beans are bad.

Neither are bad. They are just thoughts, and emotions.

Fear can be used wisely, to attack scary things, like terrosits.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Iraq was a huge fuckin mistake Zork - Not to mention cost - Instead of a largely secular regime who allowed other secs and alternative lifestyles we have turned it into a fundi regime with sharia law. I agree with what vic seems to be implying about doing it on the down low with hit squads special forces, etc - where I diverge is what should be done with those captured. They need to be mined by whatever means available including torture and draw line domestically.

Iraq was a mistake, I will admit it.

Just another mistake by the Bush regime.

-John

 

[Vic]

Fear can't be irrational, as it is just a thought, or emotion.

That's like saying blue jelly beans are bad.

Neither are bad. They are just thoughts, and emotions.

Fear can be used wisely, to attack scary things, like terrosits.

-John

There are many other scary things in this world besides terrorists.

 

[GaryJohnson]

Fear can't be irrational, as it is just a thought, or emotion.

That's like saying blue jelly beans are bad.

Neither are bad. They are just thoughts, and emotions.

Fear can be used wisely, to attack scary things, like terrosits.

-John

All emotions are irrational. That's why they are emotions.
•S: (adj) emotional (determined or actuated by emotion rather than reason)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=emotional

 

[PJABBER]

Deal with what? Your irrational fear seeking to manipulate my emotions? Sorry, bud, no sale.

You're hilarious. The only 'infidel' trying to saw off any American's head is you and your paranoid ilk panicking in fear of this ancient phantom menace.

Don't be so emotional. And, FYI, Americans are the infidels. Mmmk?

 

[PJABBER]

PJABBER trusts our govt implicitly and prays to it for his deliverance from these terrible infidels from far off lands. Fear drives him.

I trust government not at all, but I think mostly in the U.S. they do their best most of the time.

And, again, I am the infidel and you are the terrorist.

I wouldn't say fear drives me at all. Maybe vengeance? Retribution? Deterrence?