Obama suspends deliver of bunker-buster bombs to Israel, guts Iranian sanctions bill

[Noobtastic]

In eye for eye terms, the Israelis killed some 4000 in Lebanon in 2005, and 1000 in Gaza in 2008. While Gaza rockets killed less than a dozen Israelis.

Eyes for an eye terms don't work.

What you're saying is not enough Jews died.

This is not how war works, moron.

The Lebanon War was in 2006, not 2005, again - moron.

Also, 4,000 were not killed.

600+ combatants (mostly Hezbollah and some Ammal terrorists - they fought the PLO in the 1980s)

~1,000+ civilians, overwhelmingly shia lebanese.

This is tragic yes, but not inconsistent with these sorts of conflicts.

Hezbollah was a terrorist organization that deliberately hides behind civilians and no-target-zones to exploit Israel's R.O.E.

I'll give you an example:

in the 1996 and 2006 conflict, the IDF declared every UN outpost a "no fire zone." This is what the US military and NATO do.

IDF did this in order to prevent casualties among UN peacekeepers, and civilians who use their outposts as shelter since they know the IDF won't target.

During both conflicts, Hezbollah members deliberately used to the "protection" of the UN security zone to shell Israel cities, knowing the IDF won't fire at them because they are too close to the UN outpost.

This has been confirmed by the UN itself. During the 2006 Lebanon War UN peacekeepers literally sent emails to the Secretary General telling him hezbollah was abusing UN rights. 4 days later, the UN outpost was hit and they all died.

The real problem is the UN soldiers do nothing. Hezbollah literally walks right behind UN peacekeepers, but as long as they don't shoot them the UN can do nothing.

During all the wars the IDF keeps an open channel with the UN to prevent such incidents. Even in the Gaza War the IDF stayed in contact with their Gaza office.

And as well know in 2000 and 2006 Hezbollah kidnapped Israeli soldiers with UN landrovers!

I'm sure if Al-qaeda kidnapped US soldiers with UN vehicles the USA would cut all funding to the organization.

The point is terrorists embed themselves among civilians intentionally to protect themselves, and jack up the casualties if an when civilians are inadvertently hit.

This is not unique to the IDF.

Exactly 1 year after the Lebanon 2, the US military engaged in a similar conflict:

Operation Phantom Thunder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Phantom_Thunder

Nearly 1,500 killed over a 2 month period.

And remember, before the US military even deployed soldiers into Afghanistan, they softed up the country with massive air raids.

Over 8,000 killed in a period of 23 days, and ~1,400 civilians - though of course we don't know the exact number of civilians and we're simply going by US military "estimate."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Crescent_Wind

So US military killed more people in 23 days than Israel had in 23 years.

And you like to talk about eye to eye?

3 soldiers were killed in Crescent Wind (friendly fire), versus 9,000 Afghanis.

How's that sound?

Israel is fighting an organization on their border, with 80,000+ rockets aimed at their city. Hezbollah is the most well-equipped and trained terrorist organization on the planet. Far more organized than the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

USA and NATO are fighting wars thousands of miles away, without a knee-jerk reactionary media designed to condemn everything it does.

It's a different reality, yet the IDF manages to live up to a higher moral standard than Obama's military.

Do you agree?

The statistics agree. The math agrees.

What military should Israel try to emulate? What country's combat policy? Russia? Saudi Arabia? India? USA?

Tell me Lemon Law. If Israel is so evil, how should it behave?

 

[HannibalX]

It would be nice if the US suspended all military weapons sales indefinitely.

 

[EagleKeeper]

1) That would impact a large part of the US export business. Some companies make their payroll/profits from US Foreign arm sales.

2) If the US leaves that market, other will fill in.

3) Some leverage the US has in Foreign Relations is via restrictions on the arms use.

 

[Noobtastic]

1) That would impact a large part of the US export business. Some companies make their payroll/profits from US Foreign arm sales.

2) If the US leaves that market, other will fill in.

3) Some leverage the US has in Foreign Relations is via restrictions on the arms use.

Yeah, defense industry would freak.

US aid provides over 50,000 americans with jobs - as almost 75% of the aid must be spent in the US, and the remaining 25% is also spent in the US but can be used to purchased israel-weapons as well.

this does not include the ~100 million earmarked for joint-development programs, such as the arrow missile system.

Israel really doesn't need the aid at all, but if it were to remove itself from the US defense umbrella Arab oil could be threatened by an unsecure Israel.

We all know how Israel treated the arab tribes in the 50s and 60s when it couldn't depend on a foreign benefactor like the arab states did.

3 billion in aid is certainly worth stability and protection of oil. this is why obama will never cut the aid, ever.

if i was israel i'd reject the aid entirely. It doesn't need it, and it only gives the US room to order israel around.

 

[Lemon law]

Well I can only half way agree with the IHV contention of, "if i was israel i'd reject the aid entirely. It doesn't need it, and it only gives the US room to order israel around."

And the Israeli economy would go into instant freefall, and could no longer afford to spend 50% of GDP on defense. And at the same time we should quit bribing Egypt not to attack Israel.

Not even I can advocate that, we can have a just Israeli State and still promote a just peace, what IHV just advocated would be the doom of Israel, Israel could last a few years longer, but Arab oil money would close the arms gap very fast.

Bottom line, the US does not need Israel but Israel really needs US aid. Other bottom line, if Israel sells US technology to China, Israel has to go.

And wow wow wow, a whole 50,000 drop in the bucket US jobs dependent on Israeli aid, we could create triple that by selling to the Arabs. And unlike the Israelis who expect aid free gratus, the Arabs would pay us in real currency.

How wonderful, let Uncle Sammy create a real bloodbath for Israel, we did it in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, why not chuck Fuck Israel while we are at it. Blood for fun and profit.

A just peace process, who needs it, not when there is money to be made seems to be the IHV position. Except it will not exactly work out the way he wants.

 

[Noobtastic]

Well I can only half way agree with the IHV contention of, "if i was israel i'd reject the aid entirely. It doesn't need it, and it only gives the US room to order israel around."

And the Israeli economy would go into instant freefall, and could no longer afford to spend 50% of GDP on defense. And at the same time we should quit bribing Egypt not to attack Israel.

Israel's annual GDP is 205.7 billion USD.

Israel's annual defense budget is 13.3 billion USD.

That is approximately 6.5% of Israel's annual GDP.

Not 50%.

We aren't bribing Egypt to not attack Israel any less than we're bribing Jordan to not attack Israel. If anything we are bribing Israel to keep quiet. US foreign policy in in the ME is predicated on oil, if Israel doesn't feel secure it could threaten Arab energy. As long as Israel has an edge over the Arab tribes, oil will not be threatened.

And guess what?

Since US-Israel defense pact began, oil has not been threatened. Israel values its sovereignty far more than the world economy and will send the international community into a recession if it has to.

Not even I can advocate that, we can have a just Israeli State and still promote a just peace, what IHV just advocated would be the doom of Israel, Israel could last a few years longer, but Arab oil money would close the arms gap very fast.

Israel survived 30 years before US support. In fact, US sold more weapons to the Arabs than to Israel until 1974. Israel won 4 consecutive wars, and the Arabs suffered their most humiliating defeat when the USA was giving 0 dollars to Israel.

Bottom line, the US does not need Israel but Israel really needs US aid. Other bottom line, if Israel sells US technology to China, Israel has to go.

You obviously don't understand US foreign policy. US does not support Israel because the Jews own America, it's because oil is at stake.

Plus, American constituents like Israel over Arab torlls.

And wow wow wow, a whole 50,000 drop in the bucket US jobs dependent on Israeli aid, we could create triple that by selling to the Arabs. And unlike the Israelis who expect aid free gratus, the Arabs would pay us in real currency.

Uh? Arabs receive more free money than Israel ever has. The jobs Israel's provide is crucial, and guaranteed - unlike the yearly Arab weapons purchases.

Plus Israeli military works closely with US defense industry. Last I checked the modern F-16 carries over 600 modifications from Israel defense corps.

A just peace process, who needs it, not when there is money to be made seems to be the IHV position.

I think you over-estimate how much money US provides to Israel.

The real support is diplomatic, not fiscal. Israel would pay the USA to stay out of the UN and hold back Arab lawfare.

Much more valuable than a couple billion in tax payers dollars.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Well I can only half way agree with the IHV contention of, "if i was Israel i'd reject the aid entirely. It doesn't need it, and it only gives the US room to order Israel around."

And the Israeli economy would go into instant freefall, and could no longer afford to spend 50% of GDP on defense. And at the same time we should quit bribing Egypt not to attack Israel.

Not even I can advocate that, we can have a just Israeli State and still promote a just peace, what IHV just advocated would be the doom of Israel, Israel could last a few years longer, but Arab oil money would close the arms gap very fast.

Bottom line, the US does not need Israel but Israel really needs US aid. Other bottom line, if Israel sells US technology to China, Israel has to go.

And wow wow wow, a whole 50,000 drop in the bucket US jobs dependent on Israeli aid, we could create triple that by selling to the Arabs. And unlike the Israelis who expect aid free gratus, the Arabs would pay us in real currency.

How wonderful, let Uncle Sammy create a real bloodbath for Israel, we did it in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, why not chuck Fuck Israel while we are at it. Blood for fun and profit.

A just peace process, who needs it, not when there is money to be made seems to be the IHV position. Except it will not exactly work out the way he wants.

If Israel was cut loose do you think they would tolerate 50% (where ever did than # come from) for defense based on the uncertainty of an attack/harassment.

Do you think that the Palestinian "freedom fighters" would think twice about attacking Israel. After, there would be no resupply.

Ignoring the fact that Israel would have no incentive to pull their punches. Israel would have one shot to remove the problem - they could not afford to get drawn out into a conflict.

Placing uncertainty into Israel's future would alter their plans considerably.
They stood alone at birth against all odds and negative assistance from the Western world countries.
This time the enemy is smaller, more concentrated and easier to remove.
They are not going to allow the enemy to grow to the point where Israel has their backs against the wall again.

 

[flavio]

there is NOTHING sinister about Israel's military.

Except that they kill innocent civilians in cold blood quite often.

"TO DEFEND Israel today is to be either callous or wilfully ignorant. Had Julie Burchill bothered during her visit there to cross the few miles from Israel to Gaza or the West Bank, she would have seen such human suffering as to disturb even her frenetic adulation of Israel. She might have seen the daily lot of nearly three million Palestinians as they battle with army checkpoints, curfews, random shootings, arbitrary arrests and air raids. She might have found that the “superJews” she so admires humiliate and oppress Palestinians at a whim: last year, at the Nablus checkpoint, a middle-aged man was made to strip, get down on all fours and bark like a dog before he could enter his city. Women in labour routinely wait at checkpoints until some give birth there and see their babies die.
Those that survive live a blighted childhood. Since September 2000, Israel has killed more than 660 Palestinian children and wounded 9,000 — such as little Iman, sprayed with bullets when walking to school in Rafah last month, even after she died. Thousands of children are traumatised by the daily horrors they witness. For a Palestinian child, life under Israeli occupation means turning 15 and seeing the army come to arrest you if you are male, or seeing your friends bleed to death because no ambulance is allowed to rescue them.

It is difficult to convey the scale and effect of Israel’s abuses of Palestinian lives through statistics alone. But these are horrifying enough: since 2000, nearly 4,000 Palestinians killed, and 30,000 injured; 400 were assas-sinated; and 25,000 homes were demolished. In addition, hundreds of acres of farmland were destroyed. No state on earth, except Israel, could get away with these atrocities, now routinely justified as “defence” against Palestinian “ terrorism”."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article394547.ece

demonstrating Hamas used 100 mosques, hospitals, and civilian homes to wage war.

If Hamas committed atrocities that does not suddenly erase the Israeli atrocities.

They both commit atrocities. Recognize.

The propaganda damage has already been done and trolling idiots like yourself cannot accept the facts.

Both sides use propaganda but trolling idiots like yourself are blind to one side.

And yeah, Barack Obama is a war criminal if Israel's leadership is.

Who called Israel's leadership war criminals?

Compare Gaza War media coverage to the Haiti Earthquake.

Why? Are they similar to you?

IT IS YOU WHO GENERALIZES! The IDF does not kill civilians on purpose, and there is no evidence to support such a systematic policy. None, none whatsoever.

Sure there is. "front line soldiers revealed the killing of civilians and rules of engagement so lax that one combatant said that they amounted on occasion to “cold-blooded murder”."

Some "anonymous" story published by a European-funded rights group with a pre-developed agenda (just guess it!) is not empirical data.

There's no shortage if you're not blind to it.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11859

"It's the most explosive story in Israel since the 1982 Sabra-Shatila massacre, when Israeli troops supervised the three-day killing spree, by Lebanese Christian militiamen, of anywhere from 1,300 to 3,000 Palestinian civilians in adjoining Palestinian refugee camps on Beirut's southern rim.

This time it's the 22-day Gaza war last January, where almost 1,500 Palestinians, overwhelmingly civilians, were killed. This time Israeli soldiers are directly implicated. More to the point: they're implicating themselves.

Here's what one Israeli squad commander said of the murder of an unarmed Palestinian woman (because that, even in war, is what the killing of an unarmed civilian is): “What’s great about Gaza — you see a person on a path, he doesn’t have to be armed, you can simply shoot him. In our case it was an old woman on whom I did not see any weapon when I looked. The order was to take down the person, this woman, the minute you see her. There are always warnings, there is always the saying, ‘Maybe he’s a terrorist.’ What I felt was, there was a lot of thirst for blood.”

http://middleeast.about.com/b/2009/03/19/waltz-with-hamas-israeli-atrocities-in-gaza.htm

You might have to bury your head a little deeper.

Palestinians have no credibility because they deblierately hide behind civilians, even dressing up as civilians. They don't get to BITCH about civilian casualties, and neither do you.

Bullshit. When you shoot at farmers for fun and constantly kill unarmed civilians who aren't threatening in any way they can bitch, so can I, and so should you.

You have yet to refute the cold fact that the Palestinian leadership use terrorist tactics just like al-qaeda and the taliban.

Both sides commit atrocities and terrorism.

Do you think Israel's military policies are inconsistent with America's military policies?

Yeah, I don't hear about US soldiers intentionally shooting innocent civilians as much for target practice.

Bullshit. That's one fuckin generalization right there. Palestinians have their own leadership and own political philosophy. They strap bombs to their children and brainwashed them to kill Jews, Israel builds bomb shelters to protect their children.

See, you just made a generalization. Most Palestinians don't do this yet in your generalizations they do.

I never said all Palestinians were terrorists, but the ones that want a peace-ful co-existence with Israel are typically murdered.

Nope.

Hamas murdered 150 Gazans after the war ended, punishing anyone who was suspected of giving information to the IDF.

That sounds more like treason not "wanting a peace-ful co-existence". You just proved yourself wrong.

Oh yeah, victim victim victim.

Yes, both sides are victims when the other side commits atrocities.

Perhaps the IDF should treat Gaza like Saudi Arabia treats yemen in Operation Scorched Earth.

Oh wait, but the media doesn't have an agenda against saudi arabia - so the left is quiet.

The left speaks up about Yemen quite often. You're making shit up again.

 

[Noobtastic]

Except that they kill innocent civilians in cold blood quite often.

"TO DEFEND Israel today is to be either callous or wilfully ignorant. Had Julie Burchill bothered during her visit there to cross the few miles from Israel to Gaza or the West Bank, she would have seen such human suffering as to disturb even her frenetic adulation of Israel. She might have seen the daily lot of nearly three million Palestinians as they battle with army checkpoints, curfews, random shootings, arbitrary arrests and air raids. She might have found that the “superJews” she so admires humiliate and oppress Palestinians at a whim: last year, at the Nablus checkpoint, a middle-aged man was made to strip, get down on all fours and bark like a dog before he could enter his city. Women in labour routinely wait at checkpoints until some give birth there and see their babies die.
Those that survive live a blighted childhood. Since September 2000, Israel has killed more than 660 Palestinian children and wounded 9,000 — such as little Iman, sprayed with bullets when walking to school in Rafah last month, even after she died. Thousands of children are traumatised by the daily horrors they witness. For a Palestinian child, life under Israeli occupation means turning 15 and seeing the army come to arrest you if you are male, or seeing your friends bleed to death because no ambulance is allowed to rescue them.

It is difficult to convey the scale and effect of Israel’s abuses of Palestinian lives through statistics alone. But these are horrifying enough: since 2000, nearly 4,000 Palestinians killed, and 30,000 injured; 400 were assas-sinated; and 25,000 homes were demolished. In addition, hundreds of acres of farmland were destroyed. No state on earth, except Israel, could get away with these atrocities, now routinely justified as “defence” against Palestinian “ terrorism”."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article394547.ece

So what? More British propaganda?

If Hamas committed atrocities that does not suddenly erase the Israeli atrocities.

They both commit atrocities. Recognize.

Again, repetition. Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel is a western, sovereign democracy.

Both sides use propaganda but trolling idiots like yourself are blind to one side.

Wrong. Palestinians are the terrorists who are glorified by the left. Taliban, Al-qaeda, chechnya, yemen faggots...all ignored.

Sure there is. "front line soldiers revealed the killing of civilians and rules of engagement so lax that one combatant said that they amounted on occasion to “cold-blooded murder”."

Who cares? Some anonymous testimony funded by European governments? PLEASE!

There's no shortage if you're not blind to it.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11859

"It's the most explosive story in Israel since the 1982 Sabra-Shatila massacre, when Israeli troops supervised the three-day killing spree, by Lebanese Christian militiamen, of anywhere from 1,300 to 3,000 Palestinian civilians in adjoining Palestinian refugee camps on Beirut's southern rim.

This time it's the 22-day Gaza war last January, where almost 1,500 Palestinians, overwhelmingly civilians, were killed. This time Israeli soldiers are directly implicated. More to the point: they're implicating themselves.

Here's what one Israeli squad commander said of the murder of an unarmed Palestinian woman (because that, even in war, is what the killing of an unarmed civilian is): “What’s great about Gaza — you see a person on a path, he doesn’t have to be armed, you can simply shoot him. In our case it was an old woman on whom I did not see any weapon when I looked. The order was to take down the person, this woman, the minute you see her. There are always warnings, there is always the saying, ‘Maybe he’s a terrorist.’ What I felt was, there was a lot of thirst for blood.”

http://middleeast.about.com/b/2009/03/19/waltz-with-hamas-israeli-atrocities-in-gaza.htm

You might have to bury your head a little deeper.

Are you kidding me? More propaganda.

Bullshit. When you shoot at farmers for fun and constantly kill unarmed civilians who aren't threatening in any way they can bitch, so can I, and so should you.

Tell me about this unarmed civilians. There is no evidence supporting a systematic policy of killing civilians.

Both sides commit atrocities and terrorism.

WRONG! Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel is a western democracy.

If Israel is committing terrorism, so is the USA.

Yeah, I don't hear about US soldiers intentionally shooting innocent civilians as much for target practice.

Yeah, that's because European does not spend 200,000,000 annual to libel USA and British soldiers.

So of course you don't hear about. NATO killed 32 people in an airstrike 2 days ago, silence from the media.

Just because the USA and British don't have a knee-jerk reactionary media to deal with doesn't mean they aren't Nazi stormtroopers compared to the IDF.

Check the statistics.

Yes, both sides are victims when the other side commits atrocities.

GOD DAMN you are a tool.

The left speaks up about Yemen quite often. You're making shit up again.

Wrong.

Operation Scorched Earth received zero news coverage.

This obsession with Israel - when its military lives up to a higher moral standard than all of its critics - is predicated on leftist antisemitism and imperialist fallacies.

I will repost:

there is NOTHING sinister about Israel's military. Some bullshit European-backed anonymous testimony mandated to libel Israel's military is not cold-hard facts.

And yeah, Barack Obama is a war criminal if Israel's leadership is. 1,500 Afghanis killed by US forces in 2010 alone. 4,000 in 2009. Thousands made homeless.

The IDF released and explicit 1,000 page report totally nullifying the Pallywood propaganda - demonstrating Hamas used 100 mosques, hospitals, and civilian homes to wage war.

Even the UN can't discredit it, they simply pushed it aside.

The propaganda damage has already been done and trolling idiots like yourself cannot accept the facts.

Israel's military operations compare rather favorably to USA critics, and it's not my fault the media maximizes every little thing that goes on.

no wonder idiot leftist dumbfucks buy into the propaganda. Compare Gaza War media coverage to the Haiti Earthquake.

There is nothing unusual or evil about Israel's military. So for you to continue to draw parallels to blood-thirsty terrorist groups like Hamas to 19 year old IDF soldiers is a reflect of your own, twisted moral compass.

I'd like to see you draw moral parallels between US troops and al-qaed a terrorists.

More evidence to support.

 

[Lemon law]

Maybe ther is some purely on paper validity contention of IHV in, "Israel's annual GDP is 205.7 billion USD.

Israel's annual defense budget is 13.3 billion USD.

That is approximately 6.5% of Israel's annual GDP."

But if we closely look at Israel's annual arms expenditures, all of the Israel lack of defense expenditures are totally made up by US freebie arms gifts.

If Uncle Sucker cuts Israel off without a dime, Israel is doomed as its arms expenditures
would be 50% of the economy.

And worse yet, Israel would no longer be able to purchase arms, their former benefactors France is no longer helping, China would cut Israel off without a dime if Israel no loner had access to cut US cut our own throats US technology, and gasp, Israel would have to actually pay for their own arms.

Face the facts, 275 million to five million is long long odds, the Arabs have oil money, what does Israel have in their wallet to maintain their military hegemony without Uncle Sucker?

Go ahead Israel , snub the USA, sell US technology to China, the dope slap you are asking for will never come is the current Israeli delusion.

 

[Noobtastic]

Maybe ther is some purely on paper validity contention of IHV in, "Israel's annual GDP is 205.7 billion USD.

Israel's annual defense budget is 13.3 billion USD.

That is approximately 6.5% of Israel's annual GDP."

But if we closely look at Israel's annual arms expenditures, all of the Israel lack of defense expenditures are totally made up by US freebie arms gifts.

If Uncle Sucker cuts Israel off without a dime, Israel is doomed as its arms expenditures
would be 50% of the economy.

Do you know math? You said Israel's defense budget is 50% of its annual GDP. That is blatantly untrue.

I don't really understand your last statement. ~20% of Israel's defense budget is subsidies by the US government - mostly helicopters and airplanes.

And worse yet, Israel would no longer be able to purchase arms, their former benefactors France is no longer helping, China would cut Israel off without a dime if Israel no loner had access to cut US cut our own throats US technology, and gasp, Israel would have to actually pay for their own arms.

What are you talking about? Israel has a 200 billion dollar annual economy, of course it can purchase arms. It purchases arms all the time. If Israel no longer depended on the USA, it would freely sell China, Russia, India...the best weapons it had.

USA told Israel to shut down the Lavi program because they didn't want it to be compete with the F16.

Face the facts, 275 million to five million is long long odds, the Arabs have oil money, what does Israel have in their wallet to maintain their military hegemony without Uncle Sucker?

Israel has nuclear weapons. Israel managed to survive 30 years without US subsidies. In fact, Israel could have rolled over Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon - instead of retreating as requested by the USA and Britain.

Remember, the Arab states are protected by the US defense umbrella. Even if Israel were to leave the US defense umbrella the Arab states would never return to conventional warfare. They would lose.

Go ahead Israel , snub the USA, sell US technology to China, the dope slap you are asking for will never come is the current Israeli delusion.

Israel compromises its own security to maintain a relationship with the USA. While the USA sells billions in weapons to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan without conditions.

USA trains Palestinian security forces that are complicit in killing Israeli soldiers.

Don't act like your the victim. Israel has been used and abused by US foreign policy.

 

[flavio]

So what? More British propaganda?

Oh noez! It's british! LOL.

They could shoot a baby in front of you and you'd call it propaganda. You are propaganda.

Again, repetition. Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel is a western, sovereign democracy.

You can repeat that all you want but facts are facts. Some Palestinians commit atrocities and acts of terror and some Israelis commit atrocities and acts of terror.

Bury your head a little deeper.

Wrong. Palestinians are the terrorists who are glorified by the left.

There you go again with the generalizations. Some Palestinians commit atrocities and acts of terror and some Israelis commit atrocities and acts of terror.

Taliban, Al-qaeda, chechnya, yemen faggots...all ignored.

Lie. None of them are ignored. Including Israelis.

Who cares? Some anonymous testimony funded by European governments?

People with moral clarity care. Immoral blind fuckups bury their head.

Oh and prove it was funded by European governments because it would look to everyone that you made that up.

Are you kidding me? More propaganda.

More atrocities and more of you burying your head.

Tell me about this unarmed civilians. There is no evidence supporting a systematic policy of killing civilians.

"such as little Iman, sprayed with bullets when walking to school in Rafah last month, even after she died."

"front line soldiers revealed the killing of civilians and rules of engagement so lax that one combatant said that they amounted on occasion to “cold-blooded murder”

"What’s great about Gaza — you see a person on a path, he doesn’t have to be armed, you can simply shoot him."

WRONG! Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel is a western democracy.

Facts are facts. Some Palestinians commit atrocities and acts of terror and some Israelis commit atrocities and acts of terror.

If Israel is committing terrorism, so is the USA.

If the USA has soldiers that often and repeatedly shoot unarmed citizens in cold blood you would be right.

Yeah, that's because European does not spend 200,000,000 annual to libel USA and British soldiers.

Source for your figure and then a source for how much Israel spends on propaganda.

Check the statistics.

Sure, link me to the statistics on the number of unarmed civilians that the shoots in cold blood vs. Israel and I'll check them.

GOD DAMN you are a tool.

I am able to look at a situation objectively. You are a tool promoting propaganda and white washing Israeli atrocities.

Operation Scorched Earth received zero news coverage.

Wrong
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Operation+Scorched+Earth

Wrong
http://news.google.com/news?sourcei...corched Earth&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wn

What doesn't get much coverage is Israeli atrocities.

This obsession with Israel - when its military lives up to a higher moral standard than all of its critics

No obsession. Just able to see it when they commit atrocities unlike you.

there is NOTHING sinister about Israel's military.

Unless you count admittedly shooting unarmed civilians for no reason sinister. Or watch a video of them shooting at farmers or something.

And yeah, Barack Obama is a war criminal if Israel's leadership is.

Nobody called Israelis leadership war criminals. Remember? It was pointed out in the post above your last one.

The IDF released and explicit 1,000 page report totally nullifying the Pallywood propaganda - demonstrating Hamas used 100 mosques, hospitals, and civilian homes to wage war.

Israeli propaganda! Also remember your logic problem with this one?

"If Hamas committed atrocities that does not suddenly erase the Israeli atrocities." <- There was your logic problem.

They both commit atrocities. Recognize.

The propaganda damage has already been done and trolling idiots like yourself cannot accept the facts.

The only one not facing facts here is you. But yes, there is a ton of Israeli propaganda.

Israel's military operations compare rather favorably to USA critics, and it's not my fault the media maximizes every little thing that goes on.

Compare Gaza War media coverage to the Haiti Earthquake.

Why? Are they similar to you?

There is nothing unusual or evil about Israel's military.

Except that they kill innocent civilians in cold blood quite often.

"TO DEFEND Israel today is to be either callous or wilfully ignorant. Had Julie Burchill bothered during her visit there to cross the few miles from Israel to Gaza or the West Bank, she would have seen such human suffering as to disturb even her frenetic adulation of Israel. She might have seen the daily lot of nearly three million Palestinians as they battle with army checkpoints, curfews, random shootings, arbitrary arrests and air raids. She might have found that the “superJews” she so admires humiliate and oppress Palestinians at a whim: last year, at the Nablus checkpoint, a middle-aged man was made to strip, get down on all fours and bark like a dog before he could enter his city. Women in labour routinely wait at checkpoints until some give birth there and see their babies die.
Those that survive live a blighted childhood. Since September 2000, Israel has killed more than 660 Palestinian children and wounded 9,000 — such as little Iman, sprayed with bullets when walking to school in Rafah last month, even after she died. Thousands of children are traumatised by the daily horrors they witness. For a Palestinian child, life under Israeli occupation means turning 15 and seeing the army come to arrest you if you are male, or seeing your friends bleed to death because no ambulance is allowed to rescue them.

It is difficult to convey the scale and effect of Israel’s abuses of Palestinian lives through statistics alone. But these are horrifying enough: since 2000, nearly 4,000 Palestinians killed, and 30,000 injured; 400 were assas-sinated; and 25,000 homes were demolished. In addition, hundreds of acres of farmland were destroyed. No state on earth, except Israel, could get away with these atrocities, now routinely justified as “defence” against Palestinian “ terrorism”."

So for you to continue to draw parallels to blood-thirsty terrorist groups like Hamas to 19 year old IDF soldiers is a reflect of your own, twisted moral compass.

I'm drawing parallels between atrocities committed by israelis with atrocities committed by palestinians. For you to be completely blind to one of those is a reflection of your own twisted moral compass.

For Israel, innocent civilians are fair game
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/03/opinion/03iht-edbouck.2378653.html

"the military’s chief advocate general ordered an investigation into a soldier’s account of a sniper killing a woman and her two children who walked too close to a designated no-go area by mistake, and another account of a sharpshooter who killed an elderly woman who came within 100 yards of a commandeered house"
http://www.theinsider.com/news/1870...ify_to_killing_civilians_during_Gaza_fighting

Israeli soldiers say killing of civilians 'allowed'
http://vodpod.com/watch/1444804-killing-civilians-ok-says-israeli-army

"During Operation Cast Lead, Israeli forces killed Palestinian civilians under permissive rules of engagement and intentionally destroyed their property, say soldiers who fought in the offensive.

The soldiers are graduates of the Yitzhak Rabin pre-military preparatory course at Oranim Academic College in Tivon. Some of their statements made on Feb. 13 will appear Thursday and Friday in Haaretz. Dozens of graduates of the course who took part in the discussion fought in the Gaza operation.

The speakers included combat pilots and infantry soldiers. Their testimony runs counter to the Israel Defense Forces’ claims that Israeli troops observed a high level of moral behavior during the operation. The session’s transcript was published this week in the newsletter for the course’s graduates.

..snip..

The squad leader said he argued with his commander over the permissive rules of engagement that allowed the clearing out of houses by shooting without warning the residents beforehand. After the orders were changed, the squad leader’s soldiers complained that “we should kill everyone there [in the center of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist.”

The squad leader said: “You do not get the impression from the officers that there is any logic to it, but they won’t say anything. To write ‘death to the Arabs’ on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: To understand how much the IDF has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It’s what I’ll remember the most.”

http://enduringamerica.com/2009/03/...raeli-militarys-killing-of-civilians-in-gaza/

So no more "anonymous testimony funded by European governments" complaints huh? Not much left for you to say now.

 

[Noobtastic]

Oh noez! It's british! LOL.

They could shoot a baby in front of you and you'd call it propaganda. You are propaganda.

Who shot a baby?

Palestinians have a long history of manipulating the media.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallywood

You can repeat that all you want but facts are facts. Some Palestinians commit atrocities and acts of terror and some Israelis commit atrocities and acts of terror.

Yeah, some Nazis commited atrocities, some Jews committed atrocities.

This is the analogy I use.

Israel is a western, sovereign democracy.

Drawing moral parallels between terrorists who embed themselves among civilians to a military no less evil than the USA military is DISGUSTING.

There, DISGUSTING.

Bury your head a little deeper.

You are the one who lobbies on behalf of jihadists.

There you go again with the generalizations. Some Palestinians commit atrocities and acts of terror and some Israelis commit atrocities and acts of terror.

You are the one who generalizes. The Palestinians are led by terrorists. plane and simple.

US and Russian forces are 1,0000 more ruthless than the IDF, but they aren't islamists.

Do you disagree? Do you believe Israel's military is worse than USA's?

People with moral clarity care. Immoral blind fuckups bury their head.

Oh and prove it was funded by European governments because it would look to everyone that you made that up.

Kidding me? Europe spends 200 million on Israel rights groups decided to protect the Palestinians and libel the IDF.

NGO monitor exposes them all the fuckin time.

"such as little Iman, sprayed with bullets when walking to school in Rafah last month, even after she died."

"front line soldiers revealed the killing of civilians and rules of engagement so lax that one combatant said that they amounted on occasion to &#8220;cold-blooded murder&#8221;

"What&#8217;s great about Gaza &#8212; you see a person on a path, he doesn&#8217;t have to be armed, you can simply shoot him."

Yes, propaganda. Palestinian freelancers collecting information in front of Hamas warlords.

Anonymous testimony and human interest stories are not cold-hard, facts. Something you clearly lack.

Facts are facts. Some Palestinians commit atrocities and acts of terror and some Israelis commit atrocities and acts of terror.

Wow, third time. Copy and paste eh?

If the USA has soldiers that often and repeatedly shoot unarmed citizens in cold blood you would be right.

I am right. USA soldiers have raped, murdered, gang-banged, pillaged, and raped Iraqis and Afghanis.

Just 2 days ago US soldiers shot to death a doctor and his wife in Bagdad.

Do you dispute this? Just because USA and NATO don't have a knee-jerk reactionary media to judge them 24/7, doesn't mean they are 100000x more ruthless than the IDF?

Do you disagree? Or shall I refer you to the MATH that supports my statements?

You think the USA military is superior to the IDF?

LOL!

British general in Afghanistan, telling the world about Israel's performance in Gaza:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo

Source for your figure and then a source for how much Israel spends on propaganda.

How about a source that says Israel has a systematic policy of killing unarmed civilians.

There isn't one.

Sure, link me to the statistics on the number of unarmed civilians that the shoots in cold blood vs. Israel and I'll check them.

In another case, the IDF discovered a bomb along a road in Khan Yunis in the southern Gaza Strip that was attached to a cable leading to a detonator in a mosque across the street, where Hamas fighters were to wait to detonate the device.

In the southern Gaza Strip, the IDF collected testimonies of civilians that Hamas forbade them from entering a mosque in the village of Khirbat Haza several days before the IDF&#8217;s ground operation. The civilians said they later saw Hamas operatives carrying large crates into the mosque.

The Malam report also brings testimony obtained from three Hamas operatives captured during Cast Lead who revealed the existence of weaponry in mosques. One operative, Sabhi Majad Atar, said he received training how to use an RPG and fire rockets inside the Balal ben Rabah Mosque in Atatra.

A Fatah operative, Hamed Farji Abed Raboo Salah, said that, fearing for their lives, Gazans stopped praying at the Salah Aldin Mosque in Jabalya after learning that Hamas had stored massive amounts of explosives on the top floors.

These "rights" groups are designed to protect Hamas and criminalize everything Israel does. Notice how the media refused to interview civilians who were not in Gaza.

You know criticizing Hamas can be punished by death?

This is why Palestinian "sources" are unreliable - but BBC, NYT, and the Guardian will accept propaganda unchallenged and trolls like yourself will parrot it without the slightest clue. You exploit the Palestinians.

Wrong
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Operation+Scorched+Earth

Wrong
http://news.google.com/news?sourceid=chrome&q=Operation%20Scorched%20Earth&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wn

What doesn't get much coverage is Israeli atrocities.

Are you kidding me? Are you telling me there is not enough criticisms of Israel?!!!!

Israel is the most hated country on the planet. Right now BBC headlines has 6 stories about Israel - 6!

Do you realize how irrelevant this conflict is?

Saudi Arabia got ZERO coverage or news. No condemnation over Operation Scorched Earth, NONE WHATSOEVER. UN said nothing. BBC said nothing.

USAF launched air raids and killed 250 Yemeni civilians in February, yet where is the outrage?

WHERE IS THE "USA COMMITS ATROCITIES ZOMG THERE 4 TERRORISstt1111!!"

Muslims killing Muslims does not sell newspapers.

Any troll who thinks Israel isn't in the news enough is too full of hate and rage to recognize how biased they are.

The only one not facing facts here is you. But yes, there is a ton of Israeli propaganda.

Well, then the Israel propaganda isn't doing a very good job. With the right money you can convert the most ruthless terrorists on the planet into innocent, blameless victims. How offensive. You are a criminal.

Israel's military operations compare rather favorably to USA critics, and it's not my fault the media maximizes every little thing that goes on.

Except that they kill innocent civilians in cold blood quite often.

Prove it with facts. So me all these innocent civilians in cold blood.

Stories from far-left sites lifted off pro-Hamas propagandists is not reliable.

Armed Palestinian children.

Please, compare US military history to Israel military history.

Guess which one is morally superior?

Take a guess, troll.

 

[Lemon law]

IHV asks, "Please, compare US military history to Israel military history.

Guess which one is morally superior?

Take a guess, troll.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its a no problem for me, I vote neither. Past injustices are part of a rotten past that cannot be changed. The only thing we can change is to make the future better. Somehow Israelis, Palestinians and Arabs share fundamental principles of fairness

Does that make me a troll IHV?

 

[werepossum]

The problem with the werepossim contention is that the only thing Israel provides China is an espionage insight into the latest US technology. But if the USA cuts off Israel from access to advanced weapons information, because Israel is acting like foe and not an ally with the USA, China will drop Israel like a hot potato with nothing to offer.

Get em clue, friends don't spy on friends and stay friends. And no one should deal with a double dealing fink in the finkish manner Israel is now doing.

Are you totally nuts werepossim? Are you pro American or not?

None of this is true. First, friends spy on friends all the time. We aren't particularly good at it, but remember the UK busting France over the forged documents about Iraq seeking yellow cake from Niger? Second, China isn't only getting US tech from Israel; Israel has some excellent kit of its own, in some cases even better than our own. That kind of technological edge, especially training Chinese technicians and designers, is one of the things China needs as it modernizes its armed forces. Third, Israel isn't doing anything with China that other countries don't do with US tech, or that we don't do with Israeli or, say, British or French tech when the need arises.

If we cut off Israel from advanced technology, it will be in furtherance of the Obama policy of punishing allies and cozening enemies, not for technology transfers. In any case China got the great bulk of our technology when Clinton removed the barriers and moved the approval process to the Commerce Department. Where we still have advantages - and these areas are not nearly as common as you might think, China and France and Russia in particular make some excellent kit - a significant portion of that technological edge comes from Israeli companies and/or joint ventures. With their very survival at stake, Israel is highly motivated to keep a technological edge and has an excellent technological base. Remember the Core 2 Duo and the Pentium Pro? Both came from Intel's Haifa operation.

And I am very pro-American. I also consider Israel one of our better allies. Their friendship is bounded, as all such are (and should be) by their own interests, but on balance they have been a good friend.

 

[Noobtastic]

IHV asks, "Please, compare US military history to Israel military history.

Guess which one is morally superior?

Take a guess, troll.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its a no problem for me, I vote neither. Past injustices are part of a rotten past that cannot be changed. The only thing we can change is to make the future better. Somehow Israelis, Palestinians and Arabs share fundamental principles of fairness

Does that make me a troll IHV?

Yeah, it makes you a troll.

Israel has killed, at best, 35,000 in the Arab-Israeli conflict.

We can round off their contributions to Lebanon 1 at ~20,000, but that's extreme.

Israel-Palestinian, maybe ~7,000 (also extreme).

To be fair, let's put the number at 65,000.

You know, fuck it.

100,000.

And even though 70% of all KIAs are combat-age males (including Palestinians, 94% of casualties are male), let's just assume...assume, just to please flavio, that all 100,000 KIAs were not men, not warriors, but pregnant Palestinians wearing peace-now shirts and waving white flags.

So that's 100,000 pregnant pallies not involved in any combat activites. posing no threat to the lives of israeli citizens - yet still murdered ruthlessly by the IDF, curb stomped, organs harvested...using their blood in matzo ball soup...

Now, how does this compare to Britain's, Turkey's, USA's, Saudi Arabia's, Syria's, Egypt's, Jordan's, Pakistan's, China's, Russia's, or France's military history?

Even assuming the most extreme interpretation Israel is still green peace compared to the next righteous military.

Literally, green peace.

And all of Israel's wars have been against enemies that have harmed its people at one point or another. The same can't be said for its holier-than-thou critics.

I like to think of myself as fair and balanced, but I call a spade a spade. There is nothing unusual or sinister about Israel's military and I dare any lefty fuck on this board to try and prove it is an inch more ruthless than its Western critics.

I fuckin dare ya.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Spoken like a true useful idiot.

"Israel making aggressive moves."

Yeah, Jews living in East Jerusalem is an aggressive move according to the Islamic states.

Fixed for accuracy.

This would be the area under Jordanian rule between 1949 and 1967.

...

I like to think of myself as fair and balanced, but I call a spade a spade...

I fuckin dare ya.

The convergence of Fox News with an Internet tough guy.





--

 

[CitizenKain]

Please, compare US military history to Israel military history.

Guess which one is morally superior?

Take a guess, troll.

They need to update that to show Israel firing into a school that "mortar" fire was coming from.