Obama rewords "students in college will participate in mandatory 100 hours community service"

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thirtythree

Diamond Member
Aug 7, 2001
8,680
3
0
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: palehorse
You're g'damn right it is. $4000 is $4000 is $4000, regardless of the required application. At what point, after leaving my pocket when I pay taxes, does it cease being "cash"?!

You are right. We should be spending this cash to [sic] Iraq instead so that everyone that you want to join the military has a useless job. :disgust:
"useless job"?

Fuck you.

Like I said, I don't mind paying higher taxes to provide $4000 for each student; but, they still need to earn it. 100 hours is simply not enough.


Don't take that the wrong way. The military is not useless. My family has extended history in the military and I have a lot of respect for it. However, I simply disagree with the money we have been spending on this war from about 2003 on. That's just my opinion though and yes...I believe our great military and its soldiers were used in a way that was either useless or damn close. That doesn't mean I believe you or are military are useless though.


You do realize that most of your colleagues were screaming slavery just a few days ago for stricter requirements right? 100 hours > 0 hours. You are just going to have to deal with it.

Only because they thought it was mandatory service. Optional service for cash is a different thing entirely.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,377
1
0
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: rudder

Nothing like the American taxpayer having to give some college students $40 an hour to goof off. I bet the $12/hour factory worker loves the fact that the student will then get to graduate and make quite a bit more than $12/hour.

...if they can find jobs. Since everyone and his brother and his brother's friends is going to college now, we're going to have an even larger glut of college graduates. Many of those people will then seek out even more education as a solution to their unemployment or underemployment problems, resulting in an even larger oversupply of unemployed or severely underemployed-and-involuntarily-out-of-field Ph.D. scientists, MBAs, and Lawyers.

Ughhh!!

I am so tired of people in this forum not being able to look at the whole picture. You guys take Obama's solutions one at a time while ignoring the rest. You have to look at them and the potential results when combined into a single massive solution.

Plus, eskimospy has already done a great job explaining how education is necessary for work to come to America. The government can only do so much but this is one thing that it can do right. The rest will need to be healed through time and the free market. That combined effort will win us a victory.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Xavier434
You do realize that most of your colleagues were screaming slavery just a few days ago for stricter requirements right? 100 hours > 0 hours. You are just going to have to deal with it.
I will gladly agree to each student receiving $2000 for each 100 hour commitment to their country/community.

More than that is simply unacceptable.

Who are these "colleagues" you're referring to?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,085
5,618
126
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Xavier434
You do realize that most of your colleagues were screaming slavery just a few days ago for stricter requirements right? 100 hours > 0 hours. You are just going to have to deal with it.
I will gladly agree to each student receiving $2000 for each 100 hour commitment to their country/community.

More than that is simply unacceptable.

Who are these "colleagues" you're referring to?

ROFL
 

eleison

Golden Member
Mar 29, 2006
1,319
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: eleison

If this is so, why is it that most people are doing something... are working at jobs that are no way related to their degree? Granted there are people who graduated with a degree in engineering that are engineers, but there are a lot more people with marketing degrees that are doing nothing related to marketing.

There are many people in this economy who graduated from a college with a degree and are working at Starbucks -- or at least that's what I've been told.

Pushing people to get degrees -- any degrees does not create jobs. Focus should be on job creation..

What you should really be asking is why so many jobs require a 4 year degree without specifying the area it is in. A 4 year degree is much more than job training, it is a certificate that you are capable and willing to undertake a large scale commitment over an extended period of time, have your work at it evaluated by an independent agency, and have the quality of that work be found acceptable.

I'm sure there are people working at starbucks with 4 year degrees. (probably some post doc's too) These anecdotes don't change the fact that statistics show that education level and future earnings correlate to an extremely high level.

Once again, job creation does not solely take place within the United States. One of the largest factors that businesses look at when evaluating the HR potential of an area or country is the education level of the citizens there. Having a more educated populace draws jobs here, period.



A lot of manufacturing business are moving over seas to places like China, Thailand and Vietnam... This doesn't seem to jive with the theory that jobs move to a more "educated" place. I'm sure there are more 4 year degrees in the US than in Vietnam..

The US should focus on job creation -- jobs that cannot be outsourced or jobs that Americans can do better. With American ingenuity, I'm sure business will be able to create jobs here. however, if we just focus on this ambiguous entity called "education" and taxing business; business will have a harder time existing, not to mention, a harder time creating good American jobs.
 

TridenT

Lifer
Sep 4, 2006
16,810
45
91
I'm not for this. Double the hours and maybe it won't be so bad.

I really don't care for the poor. They can fix their freaking problems on their own if they tried hard. Take out a big loan with that smart credit you have been building up and then go to college and learn. Come out with a starting wage of 50K and you're set for life. How hard is that? Get FAFSA approved and get scholarships... There is no reason why anyone cannot get a great education and be successful and well off. The only reason I can think of why you couldn't is because of some kind of physical/mental disability and you already get money for that probably.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,377
1
0
Originally posted by: thirtythree
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: palehorse
You're g'damn right it is. $4000 is $4000 is $4000, regardless of the required application. At what point, after leaving my pocket when I pay taxes, does it cease being "cash"?!

You are right. We should be spending this cash to [sic] Iraq instead so that everyone that you want to join the military has a useless job. :disgust:
"useless job"?

Fuck you.

Like I said, I don't mind paying higher taxes to provide $4000 for each student; but, they still need to earn it. 100 hours is simply not enough.


Don't take that the wrong way. The military is not useless. My family has extended history in the military and I have a lot of respect for it. However, I simply disagree with the money we have been spending on this war from about 2003 on. That's just my opinion though and yes...I believe our great military and its soldiers were used in a way that was either useless or damn close. That doesn't mean I believe you or are military are useless though.


You do realize that most of your colleagues were screaming slavery just a few days ago for stricter requirements right? 100 hours > 0 hours. You are just going to have to deal with it.

Only because they thought it was mandatory service. Optional service for cash is a different thing entirely.

If they enforce too many hours and people take advantage of it then it will be translated that way again because you will see tons of students spending more time "serving" the community (most will call it government) than you will see them actually doing their studies.

That won't happen though. What will happen instead is you will have a program where the requirements are so strict that all of these tax dollars are dedicated towards it but not enough people will choose to use it. Then when the government sees that not enough are using it they will slash the budget again and again until the program becomes a useless failure thanks to greed.

Look, the answer here is to start low. Hell, 100 hours might even be too much. I don't know, but the point is you start low and see if it works. If it does work well then keep it that way. If it works "too" well (not sure how that is possible) then we can consider increasing the requirements somehow which does not necessarily mean increasing the hours but that is an option. That's just how successful progression and changes work. You start slow and you modify it slowly too. It is a refining process and delicate one.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,377
1
0
Originally posted by: eleison
A lot of manufacturing business are moving over seas to places like China, Thailand and Vietnam... This doesn't seem to jive with the theory that jobs move to a more "educated" place. I'm sure there are more 4 year degrees in the US than in Vietnam..

The US should focus on job creation -- jobs that cannot be outsourced or jobs that Americans can do better. With American ingenuity, I'm sure business will be able to create jobs here. however, if we just focus on this ambiguous entity called "education" and taxing business; business will have a harder time existing, not to mention, a harder time creating good American jobs.

That's because you are only focused on manufacturing. How do you explain all of the massive and complicated software projects that get shipped over there?


When it comes to manufacturing, look at a previous post I made. Fund vocational schools for the kids where college is not for them so they obtain a skill that is useful for jobs like manufacturing. That is a hell of a lot better than them just getting a HS degree and that's it if they get a degree at all. Next, give the private businesses tax incentives to hire these students instead of shipping the business overseas. Finally...give it time.
 
Dec 10, 2005
23,988
6,792
136
Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
I'm not for this. Double the hours and maybe it won't be so bad.

I really don't care for the poor. They can fix their freaking problems on their own if they tried hard. Take out a big loan with that smart credit you have been building up and then go to college and learn. Come out with a starting wage of 50K and you're set for life. How hard is that? Get FAFSA approved and get scholarships... There is no reason why anyone cannot get a great education and be successful and well off. The only reason I can think of why you couldn't is because of some kind of physical/mental disability and you already get money for that probably.

That's a pretty idiotic statement.
 

TridenT

Lifer
Sep 4, 2006
16,810
45
91
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
I'm not for this. Double the hours and maybe it won't be so bad.
:thumbsup:

Ya...so that hardly any of them take advantage of the program right? What's the point?

I don't want stupid moran children taking my money. They need to WORK FOR IT. Most people at my age, 18, get paid maybe $10 an hour if they're lucky. Payin' them freaking $20 is A DEAL OF A LIFETIME FOR SUCH EASY WORK! Oh, I have to go sweep the street? NO PROBLEM. Holy crap man, community service is not hard at all!

Why pay them over DOUBLE of what they get at their day job? O_O They don't deserve it. Most of these people will just slack off and get free money, that they don't deserve. You realize that a lot of these kids will fail their classes or just refund the money? WASTED MONEY.

I want these stupid children to be put into the giant cube in Cube and frikkin' try to get out. I WANT THAT KIND OF GENIUS. Only then do they deserve that $4,000.
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: palehorse
$40/hr is ridiculously high... cut that in half, or double the hours requirement, and it might be doable; but, only if it's entirely voluntary!

It's not too high considering how college tuition increases faster than inflation annually. Private schools are far far worse.
I see no problem in giving students $4000 for tuition; but, only if they double the number of hours required to receive it! 100 hours is not enough.

200 hours of work = $20/hr, which is still WELL above minimum wage -- 3 times as much, in fact -- for the kids who need the help with their tuition.

I simply do not support paying them six times minimum wage for 100 hours. That's just ridiculous...

Don't think of it as a job. Think of it as a extended Pell Grant for which the student has to show some responsibility towards the community. I don't think the intent is purely to provide employment to students.

I will support such a program (have 1 kid in college right now!) for prospective students.


 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,717
47,406
136
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: palehorse

You're g'damn right it is. $4000 is $4000 is $4000, regardless of the required application. At what point, after leaving my pocket when I pay taxes, does it cease being "cash"?!

Interesting. So when I call the fire department and it costs them $1000 to put out my house that's on fire. I have gotten $1000 worth of services that was paid with money out of your pocket. (lets assume I live in your town... haha) Have I just been given $1000 of your money? Of course not, I've received a service that was beneficial to me, and to the community as a whole. Just like education.

These students are not receiving a government supplied "service," they are receiving cash, which they'll then use to pay for college tuition. Hell, it may even show up in the form of a check made payable to the institution of their choice!

It's cash.

They are required to be in college and paying tuition right? Sounds an awful lot like a service to me. (or are you arguing that if the fire department sent me a bill, and then the county sent me a check I would be getting cash? That's awfully silly)
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,377
1
0
Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
I'm not for this. Double the hours and maybe it won't be so bad.
:thumbsup:

Ya...so that hardly any of them take advantage of the program right? What's the point?

I don't want stupid moran children taking my money. They need to WORK FOR IT. Most people at my age, 18, get paid maybe $10 an hour if they're lucky. Payin' them freaking $20 is A DEAL OF A LIFETIME FOR SUCH EASY WORK! Oh, I have to go sweep the street? NO PROBLEM. Holy crap man, community service is not hard at all!

Why pay them over DOUBLE of what they get at their day job? O_O They don't deserve it. Most of these people will just slack off and get free money, that they don't deserve. You realize that a lot of these kids will fail their classes or just refund the money? WASTED MONEY.

I want these stupid children to be put into the giant cube in Cube and frikkin' try to get out. I WANT THAT KIND OF GENIUS. Only then do they deserve that $4,000.

This is not a job. This is student financial aid.

Also, why do you think that the majority of those who take advantage of it will be stupid. Do you have any evidence that supports your theory or are you just blowing smoke?

Also, I don't consider myself a master mind genius although I do believe I got a good head on my shoulders. I received some financial aid from the government to get my degree. Did I not deserve that money? Am I not returning it to society and this economy through my hard work now? Can you prove that?
 

eleison

Golden Member
Mar 29, 2006
1,319
0
0
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: eleison
A lot of manufacturing business are moving over seas to places like China, Thailand and Vietnam... This doesn't seem to jive with the theory that jobs move to a more "educated" place. I'm sure there are more 4 year degrees in the US than in Vietnam..

The US should focus on job creation -- jobs that cannot be outsourced or jobs that Americans can do better. With American ingenuity, I'm sure business will be able to create jobs here. however, if we just focus on this ambiguous entity called "education" and taxing business; business will have a harder time existing, not to mention, a harder time creating good American jobs.

That's because you are only focused on manufacturing. How do you explain all of the massive and complicated software projects that get shipped over there?
I don't understand the question. Explain what? Some companies think that outsourcing development saves money. Some don't. Where I live, Chicago, IMHO, US programmers are doing fine. There are benefits to having local developers.

When it comes to manufacturing, look at a previous post I made. Fund vocational schools for the kids where college is not for them so they obtain a skill that is useful for jobs like manufacturing. That is a hell of a lot better than them just getting a HS degree and that's it if they get a degree at all. Next, give the private businesses tax incentives to hire these students instead of shipping the business overseas. Finally...give it time.

Having the government trying to save jobs that could easy be done else where doesn't promote job creation... only job stagnation. The US needs to get rid of jobs that can be done else where (e.g., stamping metal, manufacturing). Instead, the US needs to promote business in general. As business grow, the ingenuity of the US business people will ultimate help create jobs that cannot be outsourced.

 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: palehorse
$40/hr is ridiculously high... cut that in half, or double the hours requirement, and it might be doable; but, only if it's entirely voluntary!

It's not too high considering how college tuition increases faster than inflation annually. Private schools are far far worse.
I see no problem in giving students $4000 for tuition; but, only if they double the number of hours required to receive it! 100 hours is not enough.

200 hours of work = $20/hr, which is still WELL above minimum wage -- 3 times as much, in fact -- for the kids who need the help with their tuition.

I simply do not support paying them six times minimum wage for 100 hours. That's just ridiculous...

Don't think of it as a job. Think of it as a extended Pell Grant for which the student has to show some responsibility towards the community. I don't think the intent is purely to provide employment to students.

I will support such a program (have 1 kid in college right now!) for prospective students.
I have no problem with the concept. I simply hope that they require a little more than 100 hours...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,717
47,406
136
Originally posted by: eleison

A lot of manufacturing business are moving over seas to places like China, Thailand and Vietnam... This doesn't seem to jive with the theory that jobs move to a more "educated" place. I'm sure there are more 4 year degrees in the US than in Vietnam..

The US should focus on job creation -- jobs that cannot be outsourced or jobs that Americans can do better. With American ingenuity, I'm sure business will be able to create jobs here. however, if we just focus on this ambiguous entity called "education" and taxing business; business will have a harder time existing, not to mention, a harder time creating good American jobs.

Those are sweatshops. Yeah, vietnam's great at job creation, the kind that mangles its citizens for pennies an hour. If you want good jobs, educating your populace is the #1 way to go about it. There is simply no way the government could spend money better. Absolutely none.

 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,628
5
81
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
I'm not for this. Double the hours and maybe it won't be so bad.

I really don't care for the poor. They can fix their freaking problems on their own if they tried hard. Take out a big loan with that smart credit you have been building up and then go to college and learn. Come out with a starting wage of 50K and you're set for life. How hard is that? Get FAFSA approved and get scholarships... There is no reason why anyone cannot get a great education and be successful and well off. The only reason I can think of why you couldn't is because of some kind of physical/mental disability and you already get money for that probably.

That's a pretty idiotic statement.

He's just echoing the beliefs of most Republicans. They hate poor people and will take every opportunity to take jabs at them. Sure, some are unemployed because they're lazy and make bad decisions. Others are working really hard at a dead-end job but still can't make ends meet. Despite that, many of them want to abolish (or at least quit increasing) the minimum wage, so they can never get paid more than they are currently making even as everything else starts costing more. And forget about paying for health care or college if you're in a situation like that.

No, poor people are clearly scum and must be punished for being so lazy and uninsured.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
I'm not for this. Double the hours and maybe it won't be so bad.

I really don't care for the poor. They can fix their freaking problems on their own if they tried hard. Take out a big loan with that smart credit you have been building up and then go to college and learn. Come out with a starting wage of 50K and you're set for life. How hard is that? Get FAFSA approved and get scholarships... There is no reason why anyone cannot get a great education and be successful and well off. The only reason I can think of why you couldn't is because of some kind of physical/mental disability and you already get money for that probably.

That's a pretty idiotic statement.

He's just echoing the beliefs of most Republicans. They hate poor people and will take every opportunity to take jabs at them.
I hope you realize that statement makes you look and sound just as dumb as Trident...
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
85
91
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: alien42
it's not cash, why can't you get that through your thick skull.
You're g'damn right it is. $4000 is $4000 is $4000, regardless of the required application. At what point, after leaving my pocket when I pay taxes, does it cease being "cash"?!

Let Alien42 call it whatever he wants. But he needs to explain to me how that University is going to pay salaries with that "$4000 college credit." No it is not "cash" it is money from the federal government going to a state institution.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,377
1
0
Originally posted by: eleison
Originally posted by: Xavier434
That's because you are only focused on manufacturing. How do you explain all of the massive and complicated software projects that get shipped over there?
I don't understand the question. Explain what? Some companies think that outsourcing development saves money. Some don't. Where I live, Chicago, IMHO, US programmers are doing fine. There are benefits to having local developers.

Explain to me why so many software jobs are either going over seas or students from India/China are being brought here to do those jobs? The answer is that it is a combination of tax incentives, wages, and education. I say we get rid of those tax incentives, increase our education, and allow the free market in the world econ take care of the wage issue which it is already doing I might add....just far too slowly to help take care of our current crisis.


Originally posted by: eleison
Originally posted by: Xavier434
When it comes to manufacturing, look at a previous post I made. Fund vocational schools for the kids where college is not for them so they obtain a skill that is useful for jobs like manufacturing. That is a hell of a lot better than them just getting a HS degree and that's it if they get a degree at all. Next, give the private businesses tax incentives to hire these students instead of shipping the business overseas. Finally...give it time.

Having the government trying to save jobs that could easy be done else where doesn't promote job creation... only job stagnation. The US needs to get rid of jobs that can be done else where (e.g., stamping metal, manufacturing). Instead, the US needs to promote business in general. As business grow, the ingenuity of the US business people will ultimate help create jobs that cannot be outsourced.

Yes, by providing this country with both an influence on job creation and education separately and simultaneously. You need both or we will fail in this world economy. Again, your problem is not about education as I have been trying to point out to you. Your problem is that you lack confidence in Obama's ability to influence the other half which is to create jobs. That's all there is to it. The arguments have already been presented as to why both he and his supporters believe that his ideas will work which I will not go through the monstrosity of a task that it is to repeat those arguments to you again. At this point, you either have confidence that his way will work or you don't while keeping in mind that there are many ways to skin the cat.

With that, let me ask you a question. If you had full confidence that Obama's plans to bring back jobs to America will work then would you have an issue with his plans for education? If so then why?
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,377
1
0
Originally posted by: rudder
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: alien42
it's not cash, why can't you get that through your thick skull.
You're g'damn right it is. $4000 is $4000 is $4000, regardless of the required application. At what point, after leaving my pocket when I pay taxes, does it cease being "cash"?!

Let Alien42 call it whatever he wants. But he needs to explain to me how that University is going to pay salaries with that "$4000 college credit." No it is not "cash" it is money from the federal government going to a state institution.

The same way they do now. Why are you guys arguing over something that doesn't matter?
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: palehorse
$40/hr is ridiculously high... cut that in half, or double the hours requirement, and it might be doable; but, only if it's entirely voluntary!

It's not too high considering how college tuition increases faster than inflation annually. Private schools are far far worse.
I see no problem in giving students $4000 for tuition; but, only if they double the number of hours required to receive it! 100 hours is not enough.

200 hours of work = $20/hr, which is still WELL above minimum wage -- 3 times as much, in fact -- for the kids who need the help with their tuition.

I simply do not support paying them six times minimum wage for 100 hours. That's just ridiculous...

Don't think of it as a job. Think of it as a extended Pell Grant for which the student has to show some responsibility towards the community. I don't think the intent is purely to provide employment to students.

I will support such a program (have 1 kid in college right now!) for prospective students.
I have no problem with the concept. I simply hope that they require a little more than 100 hours...

Currently Pell grants require only that the student breathes and is enrolled. That is free money with zero requirements.

This plan is far better as it asks for 100 hours of service from the student. As far as I'm concerned its win-win for both sides. The student gets money for education and society benefits from promoting education and some free work out of the student - who might end up learning some responsibility.


 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,377
1
0
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Originally posted by: palehorse
I have no problem with the concept. I simply hope that they require a little more than 100 hours...

Currently Pell grants require only that the student breathes and is enrolled. That is free money with zero requirements.

This plan is far better as it asks for 100 hours of service from the student. As far as I'm concerned its win-win for both sides. The student gets money for education and society benefits from promoting education and some free work out of the student - who might end up learning some responsibility.

...and meet financial reqs which are very strict already in most states but your point still remains true.