Obama reaffirms the strength of our relationship with Israel

[Freshgeardude]

That's not an accurate depiction of the situation, at all. Neither side accepted the original UN partition, and the Jews had the military advantage in the ensuing civil war. Well armed and organized Jewish militias were already engaged in a terror campaign against palestinian villages prior to their declaration of independence in may of 1948 and the subsequent war declarations of arab states. Like this-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

Word spread rapidly, and fleeing pals created an enormous refugee problem in neighboring states. It served the purposes of the Jewish militias and their leadership, who believed strongly in the whole idea of population migration, be it achieved peaceably or at gunpoint... once the conflict was resolved, none of the perps were ever prosecuted by Israel, to my knowledge- they were all portrayed as heroes...

Which is not to say that pals didn't engage in their own atrocities, which seemed to occur at a much reduced frequency and level of ferocity...

LOL just to let you know, you will lose this battle EVERY FUCKING TIME you will bring it up.

The haganah- translates into hebrew as "DEFENSE" was created as a method to protect the jewish settlements from palestinian arabs trying to attack jews.

Irgun came from haganah, and still with the same goals of defending israel.

Lehi came from irgun. All with the purpose of protecting jews.


This massacre you posted...QUOTE]
On April 9, Irgun and Lehi forces attacked nearby Deir Yassin.The invasion of Deir Yassin took place after the United Nations proposed on November 29, 1947 (UN Resolution 181) that Palestine should be divided into an Arab state and a Jewish one. Jerusalem was to belong to neither state, but was to be administered separately; Deir Yassin lay within the boundaries of the proposed plan for Jerusalem. The Arabs rejected the proposal, and civil war broke out. British rule in Palestine ended on May 14, 1948, and Israel declared its independence that day. Several Arab armies invaded at midnight on May 15, triggering the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
In the months leading up to the end of British rule, in a phase of the civil war known as "The Battle of [the] Roads,"[7] the Arab League-sponsored Arab Liberation Army (ALA)—composed of Palestinians and other Arabs—attacked Jewish traffic on major roads in an effort to isolate the Jewish communities from each other. The ALA managed to seize several strategic vantage points along the highway between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv—Jerusalem's sole supply route and link to the western side of the city where 16% of all Jews in Palestine lived—and began firing on convoys traveling to the city. By March 1948, the road was cut off and Jerusalem was under siege

In response, the Haganah launched Operation Nachshon to break the siege. On April 6, in an effort to secure strategic positions, the Haganah and its strike force, the Palmach, attacked al-Qastal, a village two kilometers north of Deir Yassin overlooking the Jerusalem-Tel Aviv highway.[8]

[/QUOTE]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre#cite_note-Silver1984p91-7


Jews didnt start the battle, they merely tried to protect their own.

Arabs attacked the roads leading to jerusalem. Arabs blocked the roads. Jews cleared the roads. If you want to call it a massacre, go right ahead. facts still prove these groups were acting in the interest of the jewish people.

Word spread rapidly, and fleeing pals created an enormous refugee problem in neighboring states. It served the purposes of the Jewish militias and their leadership, who believed strongly in the whole idea of population migration, be it achieved peaceably or at gunpoint... once the conflict was resolved, none of the perps were ever prosecuted by Israel, to my knowledge- they were all portrayed as heroes...

Yea, plenty didnt want to get in the middle of a battle zone. Many were also told by the arab countries to leave temporarily and then once the jews were expelled they could return.

 

[Lemon law]

I gotta somewhat love it, as FGD cites, "
The haganah- translates into hebrew as "DEFENSE" was created as a method to protect the jewish settlements from palestinian arabs trying to attack jews."

Which also dovetails nicely into the larger Israeli history of the past 4000 years. First Israel gets a big head by being the biggest and most brutal fish in a small pond, but sooner or later the Israelis end up trying to confront a real deal big fish from a big pond power and Israel gets their ass totally kicked at least three times in their past history.

Really kinda weird when Israel models their defense forces from their defiance at Masada, the very act that got on the Roman last nerve, caused the second Israeli great diaspora, and ended any Israeli hegemony in Israel for 1800 years.

And here we are, some 1900 years later, Israel is back, and those damn Jewish fools have not leaned anything from any of their past giant mistakes in 4000 years.

But still, while it lasts, Israel is still the biggest and most brutal fish in a small pond phase. The Israeli problem, with only 5.5 million Jews, is they can never get to be a big fish in a big pond. And the only remaining question is, which big fish from a big pond with be the one to cause the third great Jewish diaspora?

Ya we already heard it before, that third Reich that would last for a thousand years, that actually lasted a whole 12 years, Israel has beat those odds at 62 years, but if they stay stuck on stupid, another 12 years may be a stretch.

But in spouting this semi accurate historical rant, I can only ask those that read this to understand, that I do not advocate the destruction of this Israeli people, when I want the land of Israeli to be fairly shared by Jews, Palestinians, and Arabs, a win win win for all.

 

[Jhhnn]

Jews didnt start the battle, they merely tried to protect their own.

Again, not an accurate representation. Jewish militias began attacking palestinian villages as early as December, 1947, and were doing so systematically from that time forward, to include villages of no tactical importance wrt the Jerusalem road. They also systematically terrorized and expelled the urban arab residents of Haifa, even as residents attempted to flee in boats...

http://www.agenceglobal.com/article.asp?id=1329

http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/his_palestine.html

There are two sides to every story, and i think that the portrayal of Jewish forces at the time as being lily white and acting only in self defense are obvious hogwash... There's plenty of blame on both sides, even if Israel's fanbois refuse to owe up to that...

 

[Vic]

I've often wondered... in today's age of ethnic and racial tolerance, what reason is there for a Jewish state/Zionism?

 

[Freshgeardude]

I gotta somewhat love it, as FGD cites, "
The haganah- translates into hebrew as "DEFENSE" was created as a method to protect the jewish settlements from palestinian arabs trying to attack jews."

Which also dovetails nicely into the larger Israeli history of the past 4000 years. First Israel gets a big head by being the biggest and most brutal fish in a small pond, but sooner or later the Israelis end up trying to confront a real deal big fish from a big pond power and Israel gets their ass totally kicked at least three times in their past history.

Really kinda weird when Israel models their defense forces from their defiance at Masada, the very act that got on the Roman last nerve, caused the second Israeli great diaspora, and ended any Israeli hegemony in Israel for 1800 years.

And here we are, some 1900 years later, Israel is back, and those damn Jewish fools have not leaned anything from any of their past giant mistakes in 4000 years.

But still, while it lasts, Israel is still the biggest and most brutal fish in a small pond phase. The Israeli problem, with only 5.5 million Jews, is they can never get to be a big fish in a big pond. And the only remaining question is, which big fish from a big pond with be the one to cause the third great Jewish diaspora?

Ya we already heard it before, that third Reich that would last for a thousand years, that actually lasted a whole 12 years, Israel has beat those odds at 62 years, but if they stay stuck on stupid, another 12 years may be a stretch.

But in spouting this semi accurate historical rant, I can only ask those that read this to understand, that I do not advocate the destruction of this Israeli people, when I want the land of Israeli to be fairly shared by Jews, Palestinians, and Arabs, a win win win for all.

Lol you think that the jews formed an offence to piss off the roman army, etc?

no the romans wanted to take over the land. the jews defended themselves like they always have. the romans were just larger

 

[Zebo]

I've often wondered... in today's age of ethnic and racial tolerance, what reason is there for a Jewish state/Zionism?

How can you say that when Muslim states don't even allow freedom of religion and they all support wiping Israel from map?

I think Jewish state is necessary just based on current events lets alone almost eradication in the past. Whether is has to be right there with some fucked up Byzantine looking border is another thing.

Either way both (Muslims and Jews) are very fatalistic so it's just a matter of time before they end up wiping each other out and I can't wait. This All-Israel-All-The-time threads gets old and clogs my bandwidth.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Again, not an accurate representation. Jewish militias began attacking palestinian villages as early as December, 1947, and were doing so systematically from that time forward, to include villages of no tactical importance wrt the Jerusalem road. They also systematically terrorized and expelled the urban arab residents of Haifa, even as residents attempted to flee in boats...

http://www.agenceglobal.com/article.asp?id=1329

http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/his_palestine.html

There are two sides to every story, and i think that the portrayal of Jewish forces at the time as being lily white and acting only in self defense are obvious hogwash... There's plenty of blame on both sides, even if Israel's fanbois refuse to owe up to that...

hogwash my ass.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict#End_of_19th_century.E2.80.931948


That is only the summary.

Jews bought crappy useless land from arabs. arabs saw jews grow in population. Jews were successful, arabs were not. arabs wanted the jews out, they attacked. jews defended themselves.


everything you could possibly post will claim exact that. any offensive move by jews were in order to protect the jewish population. After the war in 48' started it became open game on both sides.


Edit: oh and lets try to ignore the fact that one of the articles you posted comes directly from Jordan. Distortion is plentiful in that website.

and the article written in the other link was by "the director of the Issam Fares Institute at the American University of Beirut," lebanon is pretty anti-israel as well.

 

[Zebo]

There are two sides to every story,

\
LOL With fools like Jhhnn we would have never won WWII. We should have just tried to understand the Nazis, won their hearts and minds. Fucking idiotic.

No we don't need to understand shit from a culture that treats women like vomit. The sends their children in to blow other children up. etc. I prefer to stand with people who represent Western values thank you very much.

 

[Lemon law]

Lol you think that the jews formed an offence to piss off the roman army, etc?

no the romans wanted to take over the land. the jews defended themselves like they always have. the romans were just larger

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you look at the history, yes, that is what Masada amounted to. The Romans had already won years ago, Jerusalem was already sacked and burned, the Jewish rebellion
was already crushed, and then 960 religious zealots took up residence atop the natural fortress of Masada, already pre-fortified by a previous Roman entity.

But in terms of any strategic importance, Masada, being way out in left field had no strategic importance. But with the technology of the time, Masada was almost unassailable, and as such, the rebels could have held out indefinitely as a lone island of vainglorious futile Jewish rebellion in a sea of total Roman domination. And Rome could have simply gone on, let the rebels thumb their noses at the the desert sands, and simply ignored them.

But as a last island of Jewish rebellion, Masada had the symbolic effect of waving a red flag in front of a bull. And Rome simply used slave labor, many of which were probably Jewish, to build a dirt ramp up to the heights of Masada, a massive engineering undertaking achievement, and the jig was up for Masada. And rather than become Roman slaves, the zealots committed suicide.

All Masada proved if that people can be stubborn way past the point of common sense.

The point being, the same human stubbornness animates modern Jews, Modern Palestinians, and Modern Arabs, and all humans for that matter. It simply tells us, where there is injustice, there will be rebellion and conflict. And its why there will be no peace in the mid-east until Israel is fairly shared.

But therein lies the other rub for Jewish greed and refusal to share Israel. All of Israel, by modern technology, is so small, that everything is ground zero. Israel has no buffer zone and is vulnerable to attack from all points of the compass. So, IMHO, its Israeli stupidity personified to build up the hatreds of its neighbors up higher and higher, until one day, all of Israel will become the next Masada.

 

[Freshgeardude]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you look at the history, yes, that is what Masada amounted to. The Romans had already won years ago, Jerusalem was already sacked and burned, the Jewish rebellion
was already crushed, and then 960 religious zealots took up residence atop the natural fortress of Masada, already pre-fortified by a previous Roman entity.

But in terms of any strategic importance, Masada, being way out in left field had no strategic importance. But with the technology of the time, Masada was almost unassailable, and as such, the rebels could have held out indefinitely as a lone island of vainglorious futile Jewish rebellion in a sea of total Roman domination. And Rome could have simply gone on, let the rebels thumb their noses at the the desert sands, and simply ignored them.

But as a last island of Jewish rebellion, Masada had the symbolic effect of waving a red flag in front of a bull. And Rome simply used slave labor, many of which were probably Jewish, to build a dirt ramp up to the heights of Masada, a massive engineering undertaking achievement, and the jig was up for Masada. And rather than become Roman slaves, the zealots committed suicide.

All Masada proved if that people can be stubborn way past the point of common sense.

The point being, the same human stubbornness animates modern Jews, Modern Palestinians, and Modern Arabs, and all humans for that matter. It simply tells us, where there is injustice, there will be rebellion and conflict. And its why there will be no peace in the mid-east until Israel is fairly shared.

But therein lies the other rub for Jewish greed and refusal to share Israel. All of Israel, by modern technology, is so small, that everything is ground zero. Israel has no buffer zone and is vulnerable to attack from all points of the compass. So, IMHO, its Israeli stupidity personified to build up the hatreds of its neighbors up higher and higher, until one day, all of Israel will become the next Masada.

So now you are blaming israel for being small? You are blaming israel for protecting itself?

oh yes, this isnt new, this is just how you are.

 

[Anarchist420]

So you would have us revert back to isolationism??

Or isa this just your weak, petty attempt to zing Obama again??

I would definitely have us revert back to non-interventionism.

 

[Lemon law]

So now you are blaming israel for being small? You are blaming israel for protecting itself?

oh yes, this isnt new, this is just how you are.

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Jedi, you can be so totally dense at times. The fact that Israel is small, has nothing to do with nothing, its just the way the cookie crumbles reality, but still its not a geographically large nation with a expendable buffer zone. Why should shame or blame attach to being small? Those are your words not mine.

The fact is and remains, there are a large number of countries, many even smaller, who have managed to maintain their cultural identity for thousands of years without becoming armed to the teeth, hostile to ALL their neighbors, chip on their shoulders aholes and bullies.

But in terms of recent Israeli history immediately post 1948, it is true that the surrounding Arab states would have eliminated the Israeli State were it not for the fact that Israel was able to defend itself.

But in terms of every vice was once a virtue, total Israeli military hegemony already established by 1974, where is that other wisdom, there is a time to make war, and a time to make peace that Israeli is ignoring.

If Israel stays stuck on stupid, and revels in being a small fish bully, they can never become a peaceful part of the mid-east. And it has big parallels to ancient Masada, being small, no matter how high Israel chooses to build the walls of its new Masada, Israel will still stay under siege. And that alternate Masada ending is also possible. Israel can fence themselves in but cannot fence the rest of the world out.

 

[Freshgeardude]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jedi, you can be so totally dense at times. The fact that Israel is small, has nothing to do with nothing, its just the way the cookie crumbles reality, but still its not a geographically large nation with a expendable buffer zone. Why should shame or blame attach to being small? Those are your words not mine.

The fact is and remains, there are a large number of countries, many even smaller, who have managed to maintain their cultural identity for thousands of years without becoming armed to the teeth, hostile to ALL their neighbors, chip on their shoulders aholes and bullies.

But in terms of recent Israeli history immediately post 1948, it is true that the surrounding Arab states would have eliminated the Israeli State were it not for the fact that Israel was able to defend itself.

But in terms of every vice was once a virtue, total Israeli military hegemony already established by 1974, where is that other wisdom, there is a time to make war, and a time to make peace that Israeli is ignoring.

If Israel stays stuck on stupid, and revels in being a small fish bully, they can never become a peaceful part of the mid-east. And it has big parallels to ancient Masada, being small, no matter how high Israel chooses to build the walls of its new Masada, Israel will still stay under siege. And that alternate Masada ending is also possible. Israel can fence themselves in but cannot fence the rest of the world out.

first of all, I am not Jedi.


Secondly,

Israel has never started a single war. Any time israel has ever attacked a country it was because the other countries did things which constitute war. Egypt for example moved thousands up to Israel's southern border and blocked the shipping lane for eilat.



Israel has always wanted peace. It was Israel that was attacked by 7 arab nations a day after it announced its independence. It was israel that was prepared to keep the land it was given, even though more than half of it was shitty negev land.

Israel is the one who wants direct peace talks while abbas, who is 10 minutes away wants indirect.

The fact is and remains, there are a large number of countries, many even smaller, who have managed to maintain their cultural identity for thousands of years without becoming armed to the teeth, hostile to ALL their neighbors, chip on their shoulders aholes and bullies.

The Jewish religion is the longest standing group that has maintained its cultral identity in the history of the world.

Israel only armed itself after it was attacked. Haganah, like I have said before, means DEFENSE. It was created to DEFEND israeli settlements being attacked by jealous Palestinian Arabs who couldnt be as successful as the jews were.

This, by the way, proved to be helpful for israel in the long run. Israel was an isolated group and built its own economy and army, which during the Independence War of 1948

 

[EagleKeeper]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jedi, you can be so totally dense at times. The fact that Israel is small, has nothing to do with nothing, its just the way the cookie crumbles reality, but still its not a geographically large nation with a expendable buffer zone. Why should shame or blame attach to being small? Those are your words not mine.

The fact is and remains, there are a large number of countries, many even smaller, who have managed to maintain their cultural identity for thousands of years without becoming armed to the teeth, hostile to ALL their neighbors, chip on their shoulders aholes and bullies.

But in terms of recent Israeli history immediately post 1948, it is true that the surrounding Arab states would have eliminated the Israeli State were it not for the fact that Israel was able to defend itself.

But in terms of every vice was once a virtue, total Israeli military hegemony already established by 1974, where is that other wisdom, there is a time to make war, and a time to make peace that Israeli is ignoring.

If Israel stays stuck on stupid, and revels in being a small fish bully, they can never become a peaceful part of the mid-east. And it has big parallels to ancient Masada, being small, no matter how high Israel chooses to build the walls of its new Masada, Israel will still stay under siege. And that alternate Masada ending is also possible. Israel can fence themselves in but cannot fence the rest of the world out.

Any Arab/Muslim country that has offered peace to Israel has had it accepted.
Egypt and Jordan have and it has been accepted. Maybe they were bribed by the world; but for them, it has benefited.
Syria & Lebanon being direct neighbors have not. the results to Lebanon are obvious - Syria as a proxie controller to Lebanon earns some of the blame.
The Palestinians (if you choose to call them a country or a wanna-be) also have not offered peace.

So what time for peace is Israel ignoring.