Obama plans high-speed money shredder, made in China.

[Steeplerot]

and to be truly useful enough to replace private transportation, trains have to run at all hours.

This is incorrect, to replace private transit trains need to be efficient when most needed. If you were going to go with a all-train option then yes, it would have to be 24/7. But the point is to use trains to lessen the crush of peak times commute and cut down on the smog. On "smog days" when everyone can ride free you can see clearly outside. On regular days the cars leave a haze. You can see the BARTs impact in action during peak when ridership is up like night and day.

Private transportation is already a moot point for those who live in the City itself, we have 24/7 bus/train/trolleys that take the whole car aspect out of life completely. Buy your fast pass and you are set for the month 24/7 for transportation. Cars are a nuisance and in the way when there are other so many other more efficient and cheaper options. Be nice to see them banned from northern part of the peninsula altogether and get some nice real estate back from unnecessarily wide surface streets and parking lots/buildings/gas station/repair shops.

The days of the 19th century auto-mobiling are coming to a close already.

"We're going to look at the possibility of banning cars or making auto restrictions on Market street (the main st) for a long term," Tilly Chang, Deputy Director for Planning at the SFCTA (San Francisco County Transportation Authority), said. "We're just at the very beginning stage."

Many large cities around the world have already begun making their cities auto-free to save the economic hearts of metro areas from freeway blight and other automobile infrastructure that turns thriving downtowns into concrete pillar wastelands where only crackheads and winos sleep. (pretty much most US auto-centric cities urban cores nowadays)

 

[PeshakJang]

Hey, look at this. I used those Google skills you spoke of to find the preliminary FY2011 BART budget from March 2010. This is the budget you are claiming has a $4 million operating surplus.

http://www.bart.gov/docs/FY11_PBM_033110.pdf

Let's have a look:

In February, the FY11 pro forma budget - essentially a rollover of the FY10 budget - projected a $14 million (M) deficit primarily due to the continued decline in revenues. Since February, we have continued to update our budget projections and now estimate a $10M deficit for FY11 before the inclusion of any recommended budgetary solutions.

I'm not going to quote everything in the opening statement because it's a PDF that I can't copy, but here is the gist of everything:

Ridership was on the decline, tax revenues were down.

The "extra" money coming from state STA funding is directly from sales tax on diesel fuel.

The look at the FY11 budget in isolation can be misleading. If STA revenues from the state are not annually appropriated by the State legislature, the District will face continuing operating deficits ... Use of the one-time money and capital funding to address ongoing operating deficits is not a sustainable strategy ...

Ridership is expected to remain flat, after FALLING from FY09.

Operating Revenue budgeted: $362 million
Operating Expenses budgeted: $479 million
Tax and financial assistance total: $222 million

Total Estimated Budget
Total Inflow: $584.6 Million
Total Outflow: $582.1 Million

Prior to the State giving them $21.2 Million, they were in the hole. Operating revenue vs expenses are and have been deep in the hole.

Farebox recovery ratio: 68.7% est.
Rail cost: 33.1 cents/mile

Ridership has been declining:

They received $30 million more last year in federal grants and stimulus money.

In the last 2 years, they have over $20 million in unfunded liability payments for retirees.

Finally, they are looking at many BILLIONS of dollars needed in the upcoming few years to replace their trains and perform critical upgrades. Where is that money coming from.


I've posted just about every fact you could ask for, and totally refuted your claim that they are operating with a surplus. If you want to keep stomping your feet and pretending like none of these facts are real, then I can't do anything but sit here and watch you make a fool of yourself. Your call.

 

[Kirby]

You just described BART.

Can't be worse than MARTA! :awe:

 

[K1052]

Let me chime in on this...
HSR for intercity connections simply will not work in most of the United States. Does Canada have HSR? How about Australia? Hell, Russia doesn't really have a lot of high speed rail either. It makes a whole lot of sense to build HSR in densely populated areas, but not so much when your cities are greater than 300-400 miles apart with not much in between. You'd also need supporting infrastructures for existing cities, otherwise what are you going to do when you get to your destination? Rent a car after you get off the train?

Actually it is generally accepted that the 400-500 mile range is the max optimum distance for competitiveness in regard to 200mph + HSR systetms.

The Northeast, Chicago Hub (St, Louis, Indianapolis, Detroit, Minneapolis, Milwaukee), and California Coast all meet that criteria with sufficient population mass to merit investment in HSR. Texas probably could support it too but I'd expect them to finally decide to build it around the time transporters are invented.

As far as what happens after you get off the train consider the same question as if you just got off a plane. Take a cab, take local transit, rent a car, get picked up, etc.

 

[Genx87]

A smallish transit system of 50-80k daily ridership for smaller cities like Min/StP for example is not "3000" cars off the road. Nowhere near.

The vast majority of those riderships are on a bus. Not light rail. Our light rail system consists of one line and a commuter train that runs up through elk river. Both of those light rail lines hundreds of millions of dollars maybe into the billions. All to take how many cars off the road?

 

[alphatarget1]

Texas probably could support it too but I'd expect them to finally decide to build it around the time transporters are invented.

Texas HSR was killed by Southwest Airlines (aka air greyhound) back in the 80s, I think.

 

[K1052]

Texas HSR was killed by Southwest Airlines (aka air greyhound) back in the 80s, I think.

One of several attempts.

 

[potluv]

Impeach the motherfucker already, wtf high speed trains from China? Why not Germany instead where the Chinese stole the tech from?

 

[Steeplerot]

I've posted just about every fact you could ask for, and totally refuted your claim that they are operating with a surplus.

Cool, seem you finally found the 2011 pdf I linked to..ages ago.

That money is part of the budget here in CA. Fuel taxes are part of CA transit budget along with local business taxes.

What I was saying is that that has been returned to us, and now we have a surplus of 4m. Which we do.

Unlike nearly every other transit agency in the country, BART is actually dealing with a budget surplus for the upcoming year 2011 and is considering ways to spend the money, which amounts to roughly $4.5 million.

You are trying to argue semantics still on a diesel tax that was misappropriated back in the bush years and then given back.

 

[ElFenix]

Some of the major roads in my city have a dedicated bus lane for certain hours of the day. While the left and middle lanes are slow enough that you can keep your car in first gear for the next 5 miles, the bus is cruising 30mph down the right lane. Cars caught driving in the bus lane get a $170 ticket and cops are there literally every day. As a result, taking the bus downtown is MUCH faster than driving downtown.

The difference is more insane if you need to cross the bridge. Some of the bridges are so clogged with cars that it takes 45 minutes just to get across the bridge. Some of the bridges have dedicated bus lanes, and the city train even has its own bridge. The city train can go from the fast east side of the city to the far south side of the city in less time than it takes for your car to just cross the bridge.
Public transit to get to work is fucking awesome.

houston has dedicated bus lanes on all major freeways. the freeway i use actually has HOT lanes in it for the buses, carpoolers, and toll for solos. part of the reason my commute time doesn't improve is because i shift when i leave home in the morning when i'm on the bus. in order to arrive at work by 9:17, i have to leave home at no later than 8:00 to catch the commuter bus in (leaves at 8:20), which drops me off downtown, and then i pick up a local which drops me off in front of the building (6 miles back the way i just came). if i were to take my car and get to work at 9:17, i'd have to leave about 8:50, when there is little traffic. if i were to just go in at 8:00 using my car, it'd be a lot longer.

in the afternoon i can take a local to the nearby transit center rather than all the way downtown, and catch a bus coming out of downtown or the med center to take me back down I-10. that is usually quite a bit quicker than driving at that time of day, though it still takes 50 minutes door to door.

for some reason the last bus that goes from my local park and ride to the transit center near my work leaves at 7:30 in the morning. i don't want to be at work that long. and it's not any faster because that bus stops at an additional park and ride on the way in, plus i have to wait longer for the local on top of that, than if i just go downtown.

 

[1prophet]

Impeach the motherfucker already, wtf high speed trains from China? Why not Germany instead where the Chinese stole the tech from?

This, while almost everyone is arguing for or against high speed rail the most important issue of jobs for Americans and legal immigrants whose taxes would be used for this endeavor is falling by the wayside.

 

[Steeplerot]

wtf high speed trains from China?

If the CA HSR turned out to be from China I would be pissed too. I am hoping for those German IceTilt trains myself. Or something like it made in USA would be better.

 

[K1052]

If the CA HSR turned out to be from China I would be pissed too. I am hoping for those German IceTilt trains myself. Or something like it made in USA would be better.

The Germans, French, Spanish, and Japanese would be the lead bidders. They have the experience that everyone else (including us) lacks.

Anything from them offering a 225-250mph service speed would be just fine.

 

[Fern]

This thread is about HSR.

About all HSR can do is alleviate air traffic congestion, maybe a little on the Interstates.

I liked the HSR rail system in France (TGV), I don't like flying and it was convenient to get to other large-ish cities in France.

I see only a very limited place for it here in the USA. I doubt Obama's proposal will amount to much, if anything.

Fern

 

[GTaudiophile]

I personally travel a lot in Germany. Their train system is great and all but trends are changing. The trains break down more, are more frequently late, and costs seem to be out of control.

Here is a sample cost comparison:

Air-Berlin, round-trip from Berlin TXL to Frankfurt FRA, departing on 25.2 and returning 28.2: 89,98 EUR. Total RT duration: 2 hours, 30 minutes.

Bahn, round-trip between the same cities on the same dates: 59,00 EUR each way at a reduced price or 113,00 EUR each way at normal price on the ICE with no stops. That translates to 118,00 or 226,00 EUR RT, respectively. Total duration: 8 hours, 20 minutes.

Even in Germany, flying is becoming the more cost-effective option.

But is the USA did have to select a non-US manufacturer for HSR, then I prefer they select Bombarier. The Quebec-based company has since absorbed many of Germany's largest locomotive companies aside from SIEMENS. I would rather have Canada build our stuff than China.

 

[K1052]

I personally travel a lot in Germany. Their train system is great and all but trends are changing. The trains break down more, are more frequently late, and costs seem to be out of control.

Here is a sample cost comparison:

Air-Berlin, round-trip from Berlin TXL to Frankfurt FRA, departing on 25.2 and returning 28.2: 89,98 EUR. Total RT duration: 2 hours, 30 minutes.

Bahn, round-trip between the same cities on the same dates: 59,00 EUR each way at a reduced price or 113,00 EUR each way at normal price on the ICE with no stops. That translates to 118,00 or 226,00 EUR RT, respectively. Total duration: 8 hours, 20 minutes.

Even in Germany, flying is becoming the more cost-effective option.

But is the USA did have to select a non-US manufacturer for HSR, then I prefer they select Bombarier. The Quebec-based company has since absorbed many of Germany's largest locomotive companies aside from SIEMENS. I would rather have Canada build our stuff than China.

One of the main problems with ICE is that only a couple segments are equipped to run 300km/hr. Most of the lines are limited to much slower. Plus the Germans run a lot of freight over the same lines which hinders passenger service.

 

[alphatarget1]

One of the main problems with ICE is that only a couple segments are equipped to run 300km/hr. Most of the lines are limited to much slower. Plus the Germans run a lot of freight over the same lines which hinders passenger service.

Um, a lot of ICE lines are dedicated... Just not 300km/h dedicated.

 

[alphatarget1]

I personally travel a lot in Germany. Their train system is great and all but trends are changing. The trains break down more, are more frequently late, and costs seem to be out of control.

Here is a sample cost comparison:

Air-Berlin, round-trip from Berlin TXL to Frankfurt FRA, departing on 25.2 and returning 28.2: 89,98 EUR. Total RT duration: 2 hours, 30 minutes.

Bahn, round-trip between the same cities on the same dates: 59,00 EUR each way at a reduced price or 113,00 EUR each way at normal price on the ICE with no stops. That translates to 118,00 or 226,00 EUR RT, respectively. Total duration: 8 hours, 20 minutes.

Even in Germany, flying is becoming the more cost-effective option.

But is the USA did have to select a non-US manufacturer for HSR, then I prefer they select Bombarier. The Quebec-based company has since absorbed many of Germany's largest locomotive companies aside from SIEMENS. I would rather have Canada build our stuff than China.

That's why you get the Bahncard 50, or do they still have those? haha...

In Hamburg it's easier to just take the Ubahn to Hauptbahnhof. Going to the airport would mean I had to change to a bus, although they just opened a new airport Sbahn line a few years back. I chose to fly to Vienna from Hamburg instead of taking a dreadful 16 hour train ride.

 

[K1052]

Um, a lot of ICE lines are dedicated... Just not 300km/h dedicated.

A couple of the main trunks aren't, they run a mix of traffic (and a lot of it). That's why DB has been looking to build bypasses for them.

There are a lot of differences when you compare it with something like TGV or AVE where the system was purpose built for HSR instead of just laid onto an existing rail net.

 

[feralkid]

That's why you get the Bahncard 50, or do they still have those? haha...

They sure do, both 25 and 50.

Also booking in advance (ticket limited to a particular train) can reduce the fare significantly.

For example, Berlin-Prague, standard 2nd class is as high as 83 Euro.

2 weeks advance purchase is 34.

Some fares further in advance are only 24 Euro.


I've found similar fares online for the TGV, half-price if booked in advance for a particular train (much like purchasing an airline ticket).

Cisalpino through the Alps, same deal, half-price in advance.

 

[PeshakJang]

Cool, seem you finally found the 2011 pdf I linked to..ages ago.

The only links you posted in this thread were to 4 news stories/press releases. Why do you lie when it literally takes seconds to disprove what you say?

That money is part of the budget here in CA. Fuel taxes are part of CA transit budget along with local business taxes.

What I was saying is that that has been returned to us, and now we have a surplus of 4m. Which we do.

Unlike nearly every other transit agency in the country, BART is actually dealing with a budget surplus for the upcoming year 2011 and is considering ways to spend the money, which amounts to roughly $4.5 million.

And despite my detailed explanation of how that came to be, you still cling to some fantasy that BART is making money.

You are trying to argue semantics still on a diesel tax that was misappropriated back in the bush years and then given back.

I'm arguing semantics? Wow, you're fresh.

I don't understand how you keep clinging to this fantasy that the surplus was taken and sent to fund the wars. Maybe it was used to close the gaping canyon of a budget hole in your own mismanaged state? Oh, I get it though. Take money from your government, with an already massive deficit, and put it on the books of BART, which is run by that government, and claim that now there is a budget surplus! Sounds a lot like Enron to be honest. Good luck with that illusion you got going.

From your very own link:

During the past two budget cycles, the State of California diverted all public transit funding, called the State Transit Assistance (STA), into its general fund. That diversion left agencies like BART with huge holes in their budgets.

Which not only destroys your lie about it being misappropriated "back in the Bush years" for the war, but also completely destroys your original claim that BART has had surplus revenue for the "last few years"

Honestly, you make it way too easy for me to make you look like a complete fool.


My argument is based on a breakdown of the hard numbers as reported by the agency itself. Your argument is based on a net surplus of unbudgeted subsidies with no explanation of how that came to be other than "They're making excess revenue!"

You are literally worse than a fundamental Christian. You cling to your fantasy even when you know you are wrong, you insist things that aren't, and you refuse to acknowledge facts that are presented to you on the basis of either faith or indignation.

I guess the only difference would be that at least a fundamental Christian might be less likely to lie so much in one conversation.

 

[Steeplerot]

And while you whine about details I rode on a nice clean BART train today paid for by the surplus. Since I am a "fundamentalist" I guess it must have been a immaculate cleaning listening to you.

 

[PeshakJang]

And while you whine about details I rode on a nice clean BART train today paid for by the surplus. Since I am a "fundamentalist" I guess it must have been a immaculate cleaning listening to you.

It's $26 million added to your state's deficit... but hey.. if you're going to hell, you might as well be riding in a clean car.

Enjoy, Comrade!

 

[Steeplerot]

Enjoy, Comrade!

I do :thumbsup:

 

[squirrel dog]

seems like a better way would be to build lanes on our existing interstate hwys that would be for semis only.