Obama Plans Guantanamo Close

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: winnar111

It's a shame what modern Democrats have become. FDR would not have stood for this nonsense.

You have the carnage wrought on the United States of America by your soon to be ex-Traitor In Chief and his criminal cabal of traitors, murderers, torturers, war criminals, war profiteers and Wall Street robber barons, and you're still pissing and moaning about "what modern Democrats have become?" PUH-fscking-LEEEEZE! :roll:

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: palehorse
While I'm glad to see Gitmo close, it will still be VERY interesting to see what they do with all the detainees... most of which will still be bonafied violent extremists hellbent on killing Americans.

So beyond the classified trials for a "select few," what will we do with the rest? Will there be outrage aimed at Obama if/when the others are beheaded without trial by their own home countries?

It's going to be a mess...

Our court system is pretty good, why not use that? It deals in a fair and just manner with all types of bad people, terrorism isn't "special"...and the more emphasis we can put on that, the better off we'll be in the long run. If we're troubled by using domestic courts, create a "foreign circuit court" or something similar. But the current solution of just throwing up our hands and locking people forever because we don't have any better ideas is totally unacceptable.

I agree that what we've been doing hasn't been the right thing to do... but, our own domestic laws and courts are not prepared to try them either. Your average first-year law student could probably get half of them freed on technicalities derived from the unique circumstances surrounding their capture, captivity, and any potential "evidence" of their guilt; and their "home" countries may very well execute them on sight, without a trial!

So what now?

Like i said, it's a mess...

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: palehorse
While I'm glad to see Gitmo close, it will still be VERY interesting to see what they do with all the detainees... most of which will still be bonafied violent extremists hellbent on killing Americans.

So beyond the classified trials for a "select few," what will we do with the rest? Will there be outrage aimed at Obama if/when the others are beheaded without trial by their own home countries?

It's going to be a mess...

Our court system is pretty good, why not use that? It deals in a fair and just manner with all types of bad people, terrorism isn't "special"...and the more emphasis we can put on that, the better off we'll be in the long run. If we're troubled by using domestic courts, create a "foreign circuit court" or something similar. But the current solution of just throwing up our hands and locking people forever because we don't have any better ideas is totally unacceptable.

I agree that what we've been doing hasn't been the right thing to do... but, our own domestic laws and courts are not prepared to try them either. Your average first-year law student could probably get half of them freed on technicalities derived from the unique circumstances surrounding their capture, captivity, and any potential "evidence" of their guilt; and their "home" countries may very well execute them on sight, without a trial!

So what now?

Like i said, it's a mess...

I think the real, long term solution has to be to come up with a modification of the court system to allow for fair trials while addressing the unique challenges of catching and prosecuting terrorists AND additional police type training for the folks in uniform. Ultimately I think a "foreign fighter" law enforcement system is a good answer, and it will only work if it doesn't look to the world like a kangaroo court.

But really long term, the solution for many of these terrorists is to try them in the countries they committed their crimes in. The majority of the people we capture in Iraq and Afghanistan should eventually be tried by the legal system in those countries. If we do our job right, those systems should be fair, and it would send a powerful message to terrorists and those thinking of walking that path.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Fern
I see no valid reason to ship foreigners to the USA for comitting some act in a foreign country. Our domestic courts have been, and should remain, for violation of US law committed, for the most part, on US soil.

International tribunes, sending them back to their home countries etc, anything BUT shipping them here.

Fern

:thumbsup: They should be treated like POWs. Or try them in the courts in Iraq and Afghanistan if we want to treat them as criminals and not soldiers.

If they had been tried in Iraq or Afghanistan, they would have been executed already.

If you can't do the time...

 

[Jhhnn]

Originally posted by: palehorse
While I'm glad to see Gitmo close, it will still be VERY interesting to see what they do with all the detainees... most of which will still be bonafied violent extremists hellbent on killing Americans.

So beyond the classified trials for a "select few," what will we do with the rest? Will there be outrage aimed at Obama if/when the others are beheaded without trial by their own home countries?

It's going to be a mess...

That's insane, palehorse. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Due process? You know, the American Way?

Until these individuals are actually convicted, of anything, they're essentially stageprops in a play to convince America that the bush Admin is "Tough on Terrar!", a way to garner the votes of the gullible and fearful.

I figure the only reason the vast majority haven't been bought to trial is because the Admin can't make a case against them, not even in a court of the kangaroo kind.

Watch how it plays out. With relatively few exceptions, these are just guys grabbed off the street because they were fingered for reward money...

They hate America? probably so, after being locked up for years on the basis of innuendo and suspicion...

The whole thing is utterly disgraceful- beneath contempt.

Terrarist? Prove it. Bring forth the testimony and the witnesses in an open court of law. Washington, Jefferson and the rest risked their necks to make it that way- the notion that GWB and his merry band of fearmongers can go against that is patently offensive, and an affront to the cause of liberty.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Originally posted by: palehorse
While I'm glad to see Gitmo close, it will still be VERY interesting to see what they do with all the detainees... most of which will still be bonafied violent extremists hellbent on killing Americans.

So beyond the classified trials for a "select few," what will we do with the rest? Will there be outrage aimed at Obama if/when the others are beheaded without trial by their own home countries?

It's going to be a mess...

That's insane, palehorse. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Due process? You know, the American Way?

Until these individuals are actually convicted, of anything, they're essentially stageprops in a play to convince America that the bush Admin is "Tough on Terrar!", a way to garner the votes of the gullible and fearful.

I figure the only reason the vast majority haven't been bought to trial is because the Admin can't make a case against them, not even in a court of the kangaroo kind.

Watch how it plays out. With relatively few exceptions, these are just guys grabbed off the street because they were fingered for reward money...

They hate America? probably so, after being locked up for years on the basis of innuendo and suspicion...

The whole thing is utterly disgraceful- beneath contempt.

Terrarist? Prove it. Bring forth the testimony and the witnesses in an open court of law. Washington, Jefferson and the rest risked their necks to make it that way- the notion that GWB and his merry band of fearmongers can go against that is patently offensive, and an affront to the cause of liberty.

I would bold the parts I agree with, but I'd bold the whole thing.

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: Deliximus
*a few months into the future*

"Detainees from Gitmo were being transported to their new facilities after Gitmo was closed by President Obama as per his campaign promises. Unfortunately, while being transported by boat to their new destination, the boat was capsized to unforeseen weather in the Gulf of Mexico and all hands were lost...However, the Gulf of Mexico showed no signs of poor weather that day...."

LOL. I was thinking along those lines too.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Originally posted by: palehorse
While I'm glad to see Gitmo close, it will still be VERY interesting to see what they do with all the detainees... most of which will still be bonafied violent extremists hellbent on killing Americans.

So beyond the classified trials for a "select few," what will we do with the rest? Will there be outrage aimed at Obama if/when the others are beheaded without trial by their own home countries?

It's going to be a mess...

That's insane, palehorse. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Due process? You know, the American Way?

Until these individuals are actually convicted, of anything, they're essentially stageprops in a play to convince America that the bush Admin is "Tough on Terrar!", a way to garner the votes of the gullible and fearful.

I figure the only reason the vast majority haven't been bought to trial is because the Admin can't make a case against them, not even in a court of the kangaroo kind.

Watch how it plays out. With relatively few exceptions, these are just guys grabbed off the street because they were fingered for reward money...

They hate America? probably so, after being locked up for years on the basis of innuendo and suspicion...

The whole thing is utterly disgraceful- beneath contempt.

Terrarist? Prove it. Bring forth the testimony and the witnesses in an open court of law. Washington, Jefferson and the rest risked their necks to make it that way- the notion that GWB and his merry band of fearmongers can go against that is patently offensive, and an affront to the cause of liberty.

Like I said, I'm glad Gitmo is being closed. My question was what we plan to do instead, and what we plan to do with those who aren't the "select few" described in the OP...?

Unlike you, I've met some of the detainees personally. Trust me, those I met are not "innocent" by any stretch of the imagination. We're going to need a solution that both gets rid of the Gitmo debacle and keeps the truly guilty terrorists off the streets. There's simply no damn way in hell that could/would happen in a normal public U.S. courtroom!

We need a Plan B, so I hope to hell Obama has one...

EDIT: Well, it looks like he's still trying to figure this one out...
http://www.reuters.com/article...ateFeed2/idUSN10467349

CHICAGO, Nov 10 (Reuters) - U.S. President-elect Barack Obama has made no decision on how try detainees at Guantanamo Bay but remains committed to closing the prison, a senior foreign policy adviser said on Monday as human rights groups urged swift action.

"There is absolutely no truth to reports that a decision has been made about how and where to try the detainees, and there is no process in place to make that decision until his national security and legal teams are assembled," the statement added.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Originally posted by: palehorse
While I'm glad to see Gitmo close, it will still be VERY interesting to see what they do with all the detainees... most of which will still be bonafied violent extremists hellbent on killing Americans.

So beyond the classified trials for a "select few," what will we do with the rest? Will there be outrage aimed at Obama if/when the others are beheaded without trial by their own home countries?

It's going to be a mess...

That's insane, palehorse. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Due process? You know, the American Way?

Until these individuals are actually convicted, of anything, they're essentially stageprops in a play to convince America that the bush Admin is "Tough on Terrar!", a way to garner the votes of the gullible and fearful.

I figure the only reason the vast majority haven't been bought to trial is because the Admin can't make a case against them, not even in a court of the kangaroo kind.

Watch how it plays out. With relatively few exceptions, these are just guys grabbed off the street because they were fingered for reward money...

They hate America? probably so, after being locked up for years on the basis of innuendo and suspicion...

The whole thing is utterly disgraceful- beneath contempt.

Terrarist? Prove it. Bring forth the testimony and the witnesses in an open court of law. Washington, Jefferson and the rest risked their necks to make it that way- the notion that GWB and his merry band of fearmongers can go against that is patently offensive, and an affront to the cause of liberty.

I would bold the parts I agree with, but I'd bold the whole thing.

I somehow doubt you guys would still believe that bullshit if these rats ever got off and bombed your loved ones.

 

[ModerateRepZero]

Guantanamo is merely a symbol; closing it doesn't solve the problem of what to do with persons neither POWs nor harmless/innocent individuals, according to Benjamin Wittes's "Law and the Long War" book.

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Originally posted by: palehorse
While I'm glad to see Gitmo close, it will still be VERY interesting to see what they do with all the detainees... most of which will still be bonafied violent extremists hellbent on killing Americans.

So beyond the classified trials for a "select few," what will we do with the rest? Will there be outrage aimed at Obama if/when the others are beheaded without trial by their own home countries?

It's going to be a mess...

That's insane, palehorse. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Due process? You know, the American Way?

Until these individuals are actually convicted, of anything, they're essentially stageprops in a play to convince America that the bush Admin is "Tough on Terrar!", a way to garner the votes of the gullible and fearful.

I figure the only reason the vast majority haven't been bought to trial is because the Admin can't make a case against them, not even in a court of the kangaroo kind.

Watch how it plays out. With relatively few exceptions, these are just guys grabbed off the street because they were fingered for reward money...

They hate America? probably so, after being locked up for years on the basis of innuendo and suspicion...

The whole thing is utterly disgraceful- beneath contempt.

Terrarist? Prove it. Bring forth the testimony and the witnesses in an open court of law. Washington, Jefferson and the rest risked their necks to make it that way- the notion that GWB and his merry band of fearmongers can go against that is patently offensive, and an affront to the cause of liberty.

I would bold the parts I agree with, but I'd bold the whole thing.

I somehow doubt you guys would still believe that bullshit if these rats ever got off and bombed your loved ones.

Fearmongering at its best. You learned well young one.

 

[SirStev0]

Thank god. Of all of them, this has been the biggest black mark against the supposed promise of freedom in the United States by the Bush Administration.

Obama wants to immediately remove the policy that made this illegal and ethically/morally repugnant prison and replace it with fair trials. He is also developing a way to release the some 250 individuals who were proved to have done no wrong yet the Bush Admin seems to not know what to do with.

He is currently working on a way to handle these potential terrorist with actual law and justice instead of just permanent, unrepresented, and untried imprisonment.

What was the Bush Admin's response? "a plan the Bush administration said Monday was easier said than done"

Translation for anyone else who doesn't speak bullshit : Basically we made such a fucked up situation that we have no idea how to deal with it and instead figured we were just going to stick it out and hope for the best.

Sounds like a couple of other things.



And btw Chicken Littles... now where will you get thrown when Obama arrests you with his secret police?

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: SirStev0
Thank god. Of all of them, this has been the biggest black mark against the supposed promise of freedom in the United States by the Bush Administration.

Obama wants to immediately remove the policy that made this illegal and ethically/morally repugnant prison and replace it with fair trials. He is also developing a way to release the some 250 individuals who were proved to have done no wrong yet the Bush Admin seems to not know what to do with.

He is currently working on a way to handle these potential terrorist with actual law and justice instead of just permanent, unrepresented, and untried imprisonment.

What was the Bush Admin's response? "a plan the Bush administration said Monday was easier said than done"

Translation for anyone else who doesn't speak bullshit : Basically we made such a fucked up situation that we have no idea how to deal with it and instead figured we were just going to stick it out and hope for the best.

Sounds like a couple of other things.



And btw Chicken Littles... now where will you get thrown when Obama arrests you with his secret police?

 

[JJChicken]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
But where will we send GWB&Co for their war crimes?

Oh Snap!

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: SirStev0
Thank god. Of all of them, this has been the biggest black mark against the supposed promise of freedom in the United States by the Bush Administration.

Obama wants to immediately remove the policy that made this illegal and ethically/morally repugnant prison and replace it with fair trials. He is also developing a way to release the some 250 individuals who were proved to have done no wrong yet the Bush Admin seems to not know what to do with.

He is currently working on a way to handle these potential terrorist with actual law and justice instead of just permanent, unrepresented, and untried imprisonment.

What was the Bush Admin's response? "a plan the Bush administration said Monday was easier said than done"

Translation for anyone else who doesn't speak bullshit : Basically we made such a fucked up situation that we have no idea how to deal with it and instead figured we were just going to stick it out and hope for the best.

Sounds like a couple of other things.



And btw Chicken Littles... now where will you get thrown when Obama arrests you with his secret police?

I guess they don't have a foot in the mouth emoticon... so you'll just have to act confused.

Let me spell it out for you... You neocon chicken littles have repeatedly stated that you think Obama plans to take away your freedom and throw all you "free thinkers" into some super government prison.

This is just another block knocked out from your base... you don't have many left...

 

[sandorski]

Shut 'er down!

 

[Deptacon]

They don't deserve trials.

 

[Deptacon]

Originally posted by: ModerateRepZero
Guantanamo is merely a symbol; closing it doesn't solve the problem of what to do with persons neither POWs nor harmless/innocent individuals, according to Benjamin Wittes's "Law and the Long War" book.

they are NOT POWs... POW's serve a country...where a nations uniform...and follow the rules of war when they fight you... Those bastards...some of which I fought in Iraq....did none...

They are ruthless, honorless, and dirty fighters.... they do not deserve the title of POW

 

[jamesall]

Do Osama have the right to purchases Johnny Cochran to represents his minions?
If the suicide belt don't fit,you must aquit!

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: jamesall
Do Osama have the right to purchase Johnny Cochran to represent his minions?

:laugh:

Meet the future of the GOP.

 

[43st]

Originally posted by: Deptacon

Originally posted by: ModerateRepZero
Guantanamo is merely a symbol; closing it doesn't solve the problem of what to do with persons neither POWs nor harmless/innocent individuals, according to Benjamin Wittes's "Law and the Long War" book.

they are NOT POWs... POW's serve a country...where a nations uniform...and follow the rules of war when they fight you... Those bastards...some of which I fought in Iraq....did none...

They are ruthless, honorless, and dirty fighters.... they do not deserve the title of POW

The British said the same thing. :laugh:

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Deptacon

Originally posted by: ModerateRepZero
Guantanamo is merely a symbol; closing it doesn't solve the problem of what to do with persons neither POWs nor harmless/innocent individuals, according to Benjamin Wittes's "Law and the Long War" book.

they are NOT POWs... POW's serve a country...where a nations uniform...and follow the rules of war when they fight you... Those bastards...some of which I fought in Iraq....did none...

They are ruthless, honorless, and dirty fighters.... they do not deserve the title of POW

I don't think their lack of honor should take away our own. Even if the people fighting us are evil, we're not...so let's fucking act like it.

"Implicit in the term 'national defense' is the notion of defending those values and ideas which set this Nation apart" That quote is in my signature for a reason, I think it's an important idea that's all too easy to forget.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Deptacon

Originally posted by: ModerateRepZero
Guantanamo is merely a symbol; closing it doesn't solve the problem of what to do with persons neither POWs nor harmless/innocent individuals, according to Benjamin Wittes's "Law and the Long War" book.

they are NOT POWs... POW's serve a country...where a nations uniform...and follow the rules of war when they fight you... Those bastards...some of which I fought in Iraq....did none...

They are ruthless, honorless, and dirty fighters.... they do not deserve the title of POW

I don't think their lack of honor should take away our own. Even if the people fighting us are evil, we're not...so let's fucking act like it.

"Implicit in the term 'national defense' is the notion of defending those values and ideas which set this Nation apart" That quote is in my signature for a reason, I think it's an important idea that's all too easy to forget.

yes its sort of difficult to say you hold a belief if you cant uphold it when someone else doesnt

 

[ModerateRepZero]

they are NOT POWs... POW's serve a country...where a nations uniform...and follow the rules of war when they fight you... Those bastards...some of which I fought in Iraq....did none...

They are ruthless, honorless, and dirty fighters.... they do not deserve the title of POW

Did you read what I said? They ARE NOT POWs by the standards of the Geneva Convention. On that we both agree on. But the problem, I repeat, is what to do with people who aren't declared hostiles who are neither POWs nor innocents we can release. Wittes makes an analogy to continued incarceration for the mentally ill and sexual offenders.