Obama Panel Eyes killing Mortgage Tax Breaks

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Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
I think we need to incorporate the United States Government and open up IPO to the world. :\



Naah - The "CEO" of the US would sell the place off in an "Assets Only" transaction to China in exchange for a few Billion for Him and His Management Team.
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,036
21
81
Between the Bush tax breaks (specifically the children deduction) and this change, I could see approximately $4,000 increase in taxes on my single-income under-$80k household of 5. Well under the $250k that was promised.

4k increase? How much is your house?
 

Pulsar

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2003
5,224
306
126
4k increase? How much is your house?

Figure it out. You've got all the data you need. I have 3 kids. Figure out how much I'm losing from the child tax credit (that's a credit, straight dollar to dollar, married filing jointly, well under the ceiling where the credit begins to diminish). Take the remaining amount, multiply it by 3, and that's how much actual interest I'm paying on my house this year. I'll leave it to you to guess how much my house might be worth based on where I might be in my loan payback.

You should be able to figure it out just through swags and be reasonably close.

Or I could just tell you that I'll pay about $10k in interest on my house this year.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
31
91
We've repeatedly tried to explain to you and others how important it is to pay back debts and have a balanced budget, but your response above was basically "la la la la la I'm not listening I live in my parents basement they pay my rent la la la"

I have no problem balancing a budget. But I also have no problem cutting spending. Trim the fat then ask me for more of my money when you've cut all you think you can cut.
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,036
21
81
Figure it out. You've got all the data you need. I have 3 kids. Figure out how much I'm losing from the child tax credit (that's a credit, straight dollar to dollar, married filing jointly, well under the ceiling where the credit begins to diminish). Take the remaining amount, multiply it by 3, and that's how much actual interest I'm paying on my house this year. I'll leave it to you to guess how much my house might be worth based on where I might be in my loan payback.

You should be able to figure it out just through swags and be reasonably close.

Or I could just tell you that I'll pay about $10k in interest on my house this year.

I don't get it... you're angry with Obama, but you sound awfully like a democrat relying on handouts. :|
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
I don't get it... you're angry with Obama, but you sound awfully like a democrat relying on handouts. :|
There's been a lot of that in this thread. Hell I called out spidey07 by calling him a hypocritical leftist and he hasn't bothered to refute it!
 
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Pulsar

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2003
5,224
306
126
I don't get it... you're angry with Obama, but you sound awfully like a democrat relying on handouts. :|

So, wanting to keep the money I earned is now the same as getting handouts from the government?

You know that saying "never go full retard"? Yeah... you just managed it.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
So, wanting to keep the money I earned is now the same as getting handouts from the government?

You know that saying "never go full retard"? Yeah... you just managed it.

Now explain to the class why you think your mortgage should be subsidized by the government? Why stop there. Let's make all debts tax deductible. I should be able to make my car payments with pre-tax dollars.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Now explain to the class why you think your mortgage should be subsidized by the government? Why stop there. Let's make all debts tax deductible. I should be able to make my car payments with pre-tax dollars.

Subsidizing is when the government gives you money to do something. A deduction is letting you keep money that was already yours. HUGE difference.

As mentioned the interest deduction is to incent behavior, that behavior being buying homes. There is no subsidy here.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Subsidizing is when the government gives you money to do something. A deduction is letting you keep money that was already yours. HUGE difference.

As mentioned the interest deduction is to incent behavior, that behavior being buying homes. There is no subsidy here.

Quoted for truth. Personally I'm fine with losing the mortgage deduction, just as son as government gets out of the business of rewarding and punishing behaviors altogether.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
Subsidizing is when the government gives you money to do something. A deduction is letting you keep money that was already yours. HUGE difference.

As mentioned the interest deduction is to incent behavior, that behavior being buying homes. There is no subsidy here.
Fair enough. Just change the context of it a little and see why most people would agree that it's a blatant handout. Instead of using pre-tax dollars and saving 10k, it's like using regular post-tax dollars that most people use then the government hands you a check for 10k and says Merry Christmas.

I think the government should write me a $100 check to pay for my coffee. I don't want to call it a hand out, so we'll just say it's a tax write off and they're really just letting me keep more of the money I earned ;)
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
Subsidizing is when the government gives you money to do something. A deduction is letting you keep money that was already yours. HUGE difference.

As mentioned the interest deduction is to incent behavior, that behavior being buying homes. There is no subsidy here.
So you have no objection to ANY income tax deductions then, right?
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
So you have no objection to ANY income tax deductions then, right?

If they incent behavior I think is good, then no. I get to deduct my gambling losses however, I kind of like that one.

Obama also wants to do away with the charitable donations deduction, that is certainly something that should be incented. That's what deductions are for, incent behavior that is good for all - having kids, education or investing in yourself to be more productive, etc. Remember, it is MY EARNED INCOME/MONEY to start with...not theirs.
 
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IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
70,165
28,814
136
If they incent behavior I think is good, then no. I get to deduct my gambling losses however, I kind of like that one.

Obama also wants to do away with the charitable donations deduction, that is certainly something that should be incented. That's what deductions are for, incent behavior that is good for all - having kids, education or investing in yourself to be more productive, etc. Remember, it is MY EARNED INCOME/MONEY to start with...not theirs.
Why should I subsidize other people's breeding? What you consider good for all, I don't.

However, as ShawnD1 points out whether something is a deduction or a handout is really a matter of semantics. If your taxes get reduced by $50 or if instead the gov cuts you a check for $50 really doesn't matter. In either case, you got $50 you otherwise would not have and the gov has $50 less.

It is sort of like people bitching that some employees get generous benefits while others don't. In reality employees cost an employer what they cost. If part of that cost is in the form of benefits instead of direct payment that the employee immediately uses to buy the equivalent isn't really an issue. It's simply a matter of where on the pay stub the cost is listed.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
If they incent behavior I think is good, then no.

I get to deduct my gambling losses however, I kind of like that one.

Obama also wants to do away with the charitable donations deduction, that is certainly something that should be incented. That's what deductions are for, incent behavior that is good for all - having kids, education or investing in yourself to be more productive, etc. Remember, it is MY EARNED INCOME/MONEY to start with...not theirs.
*Sniff sniff* Smells like hypocrite. Your attitude towards income tax deductions is more motivated by a desire to shape behavior than to reduce the overall level of taxation. Just because you tack on an "IT'S MAH MUNNAY DAMMIT!" at the end in no way implies that that was your underlying reasoning (whether you realize it or not!). When other people express views like yours you usually chime in with epithets like "elitist" or "radical leftist".
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Why should I subsidize other people's breeding? What you consider good for all, I don't.

However, as ShawnD1 points out whether something is a deduction or a handout is really a matter of semantics. If your taxes get reduced by $50 or if instead the gov cuts you a check for $50 really doesn't matter. In either case, you got $50 you otherwise would not have and the gov has $50 less.

It is sort of like people bitching that some employees get generous benefits while others don't. In reality employees cost an employer what they cost. If part of that cost is in the form of benefits instead of direct payment that the employee immediately uses to buy the equivalent isn't really an issue. It's simply a matter of where on the pay stub the cost is listed.

It DOES matter. There is a huge difference. Why do people associate a deduction as a check/handout? That is my earned income, my money. There's a huge difference between not paying federal income tax on my earned income and getting a check from the government for money that I didn't earn. I know you're not a leftist to some extent but this line of thinking is the pure work of liberal mentality, that letting me keep money that is mine is somehow the same as a handout/subsidy.

And nonlinear, the entire purpose of tax deductions is shaping behavior and as such most of them truly are incenting good behavior for society. Again, big difference between a deduction and a credit. I can't take deductions to reduce my tax liability to receive a credit from the government, only to reduce the amount of tax I pay. Next you'll tell me 401k and tax incented retirement programs. You're smarter than this.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Now explain to the class why you think your mortgage should be subsidized by the government? Why stop there. Let's make all debts tax deductible. I should be able to make my car payments with pre-tax dollars.

So you are in favor of removing ALL tax deductions? You do realize that will utterly destroy what is left of the housing market, the middle class and the poor right? Basically something like the fair tax right? Oh wait, thats not what you really meant you just wanted a jab at the other side...

Congress uses the tax code to give incentives (and punish) certain behaviors. Home ownership has always been something they gave incentives to for a lot of reasons. The only way to truly get rid of stuff like that is to drastically simplify the tax code and for Congress to give up the power to manipulate certain actions of society. In other words, ain't happening in our lifetime.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
http://philanthropy.com/article/Obamas-Plan-to-Reduce/63024/

Funny, I know more about Obama than most all on this forum. I watch him, listen to him, pay attention to his words, deeds and actions. I know exactly what he is.

You offered that Obama wanted to do away with deductions for charitable contributions, when he offered no such thing, as your linked piece indicates quite clearly. Shaving a few points off the tax deductible value of such contributions is not the same as doing away with them.

But you'll try to pass off fiction as fact, time and time again, right?
 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
81
Yes, anything this bi-partisan commission says that's unpopular should put the blame on Obama and Democrats.

The right - against the Democrats for not cutting the deficit enough, and against the Democrats for cutting the deficit more.


Lol, yeah that's what the dimocrats are known for cutting the deficit.....
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
70,165
28,814
136
It DOES matter. There is a huge difference. Why do people associate a deduction as a check/handout? That is my earned income, my money. There's a huge difference between not paying federal income tax on my earned income and getting a check from the government for money that I didn't earn. I know you're not a leftist to some extent but this line of thinking is the pure work of liberal mentality, that letting me keep money that is mine is somehow the same as a handout/subsidy.
You have a base federal income tax bill, say $1000.

Scenario one: You get a $50 deduction (net value) for whatever rationale. So you pay the gov $950 instead of $1000. You're out $950.

Scenario two: The deduction in scenario one doesn't exist but the gov will send you $50 to subsidize the same behavior the deduction was designed to promote in scenario one. So you send the gov $1000 and the gov sends you a check for $50. You're still out $950.

The only difference between the scenarios is the paperwork involved.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
You have a base federal income tax bill, say $1000.

Scenario one: You get a $50 deduction (net value) for whatever rationale. So you pay the gov $950 instead of $1000. You're out $950.

Scenario two: The deduction in scenario one doesn't exist but the gov will send you $50 to subsidize the same behavior the deduction was designed to promote in scenario one. So you send the gov $1000 and the gov sends you a check for $50. You're still out $950.

The only difference between the scenarios is the paperwork involved.

Is your point that no deductions should be allowed or do you just disagree with this specific behavior they are using the tax code to modify?
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
70,165
28,814
136
Is your point that no deductions should be allowed or do you just disagree with this specific behavior they are using the tax code to modify?
No, that specific post was addressing Spidey's claim that there is any difference between a deduction and a handout (assuming you pay taxes in the first place).

I do think that the type and number of deductions has gotten out of hand (yes, even ones I benefit from). The mortgage interest deduction is one I think aught to go. I do like nonlnear's proposal though, being a good liberal, I think that a principal repayment deduction should be tied to income or house price so we aren't paying people to buy ostentatious McMansions.